Goodbye me!

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:50 pm

What is the difference between doing and happening?
Happening IS without nobody orchestrating or directing it.
Doing is a happening influenced or directed by an entity. But doing now seems to be an interesting verb which should be removed from the dictionary =)

Is the separate self doing anything in life?
Not here, but believe me when I do not investigate, it seems that way hahaha =)

Or is the separate self also given? As an idea? Or as an entity?
It is a very convincing idea but again, while investigating it simply looks false.

Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?
It is possible. Still not 100% clear here. I will re-investigate this one, once again after work.

What do you do right now for this to be?
Nothing, but there are fingers typing this answer and there's a special familiarity, preference with these fingers over the fingers from other bodies =)

Are you doing reading or reading is happening? Are you doing sitting or sitting is happening?
Reading, sitting and also smiling right now are happening.

Are you doing seeing or seeing is happening?
Vivien, this mind is blowing, in a good sense. Does the feeling of a me doing things still arises on you?

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:46 am

Hi Manolo,
Does the feeling of a me doing things still arises on you?
Let me answer with questions :)

Is there an actual FEELING of ‘me doing things’?
Where is this feeling located? In which part of the body?


Please pin down the exact feeling/sensation that seems to be the ‘feeling of me doing things’.

How do you know that this feeling is actually the ‘feeling of me doing things’?

Does that feeling actual make things happen?
Does that feeling an actual doer?
V: Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?
M: It is possible. Still not 100% clear here. I will re-investigate this one, once again after work.
Yes please, look at this again.
And let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:25 am

Is there an actual FEELING of ‘me doing things’? Where is this feeling located? In which part of the body?
Well, clearly not a feeling but a thought that arises saying "I did this, I did that". It's more like a habit of thought than a feeling.

Please pin down the exact feeling/sensation that seems to be the ‘feeling of me doing things’.
Nowhere. As I said, it is a thought that arises saying "I've been doing this or that" which creates yet another thought saying "that's who am I".

Does that feeling actual make things happen? Does that feeling an actual doer?
Nope, this are happening around and in this body, that's clear. One of those things is the thought that says "I did this or I did that" which can sometimes trigger feelings like joy, anger, envy, guit, happiness, proud, etc.

Vivien: Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?
Manolo: It is possible. Still not 100% clear here. I will re-investigate this one, once again after work.
Vivien: Yes please, look at this again. And let me know what you find.
For sure there's a background understanding that things are happening by themselves. All of them. Everything. Every time I check this, it is TRUE, things are happening. But it is as if I am forgetting it as well. In other words, a knowledge that happens when I check, but it is lost immediately after that. By "lost" I mean that I forget. It is as if I am understanding this at a thought level but it is not going beyond that. But please, let me recheck a bit more. I don't think I went for all.

Vivien, thanks a lot for helping me with this investigation. Realizing or not, I am enjoying.

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:06 am

OK, look into this more. Please be through.
Let me know what you discover.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:03 am

Vivien: Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?
Manolo: It is possible. Still not 100% clear here. I will re-investigate this one, once again after work.
Vivien: Yes please, look at this again. And let me know what you find.
Manolo: Let me recheck a bit more.
Vivien: OK, look into this more. Please be through. Let me know what you discover.
Everything is happenning, yes, but that is not clearly felt here.

Hearing, seeing, smelling, touching and tasting are obvious. Those things and everything around is just happening. Thoughts are the problem because even knowing that they are happening, when thoughts ABOUT previous thoughts arise, it seems as if there is control despite the fact that it is obvious that there's none. Zero. Never was. Thoughts about past thoughts, current thoughts or future thoughts are just thoughts. It's obvious for a moment. I need more investigation, Vivien. Clear and confusing. But still clear. And still, confusing =)

Unless you tell me to do otherwise, I'll dig deeper on this.

Thanks for what you are doing, Vivien. ☺️

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:22 am

Yes, please do so :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:33 am

I hope you had a great weekend, Vivien! ☺️
Vivien: Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?
Manolo: It is possible. Still not 100% clear here. I will re-investigate this one, once again after work.
Vivien: Yes please, look at this again. And let me know what you find.
Manolo: Let me recheck a bit more.
Vivien: OK, look into this more. Please be through. Let me know what you discover.
Manolo: Clear and confusing. I'll dig deeper on this unless you tell me to do otherwise.
Vivien: Yes, please do so :)

I was slightly stuck here, but this morning it seemed to click but immediately the question arised: "Things are just happening with no exception, then, who is realizing this?". It seems to me that nobody is realizing anything because there's nobody in the first place. Things (including thougths) are happening and there's not a iota of control here despite the fact that many of those thoughts seem to be controlled, but it's not true. For some reason (nature?) this body is labeling "me, mine, I" which at some level seems be to correct ("this phone is mine") in order to describe the body that owns the phone, but that does not mean that there's is somebody inside the body owning the body not even controlling it. Things are happening everywhere and thoughts of ownership arise. Many of those thoughts do seem logical ("phone is mine") and others do not ("I am hearing music").

This is how it's FELT today, Vivien! =)

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:41 am

Hi Manolo,

You did a nice investigation.

Look around, all colours are given, they are happening. It’s not that the me-character can choose and make colours that are present into different ones. Or choose not to see green and see pink instead. Colours are happening. Shapes are happening. Sounds are happening.

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?
And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

Now look, what is not given?

What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:45 am

One more day, Vivien. Things are happening here, but slowly 😂😂😂😂

Thanks for all this. I will retry during the day.

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:53 am

All right, please be thorough.

Have a nice day :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:06 am

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?
And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?
All these things are happening. It is almost funny how the "me" comes after and says "I am sad, I am happy, I can't focus on the breath".

What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Jumping off the bed this morning took a lot of effort on my part =) Hahah =) I'm just kidding. But can't we say that the body that is writing these words does an effort to exist in this life? An effort like eating healthy foods instead of pure pizza and gelatto. We can say that "effort" happens, or that a greater mental energy is required to make this body eat healthy food. Would you agree?

Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?
Is the me-character doing anything in life?
The me-character is a fake! No doubts about that! =)

Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?
Yes Vivien. It's an idea that arises sometimes, but these days each time the "me" arises it does not go unnoticed anymore. A thought of me arises and then another thought of "caught you" arises as well. So clearly there's a persistent "me" idea here, but it is followed by another idea/thought that exposes it.


Thanks Vivien!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:46 am

Hi Manolo,
But can't we say that the body that is writing these words does an effort to exist in this life? An effort like eating healthy foods instead of pure pizza and gelatto. We can say that "effort" happens, or that a greater mental energy is required to make this body eat healthy food. Would you agree?
This is an intellectual question.
An effort like eating healthy foods instead of pure pizza and gelatto.
What is that that is making an effort to eat healthily?
Where is the one that is making effort?

And what is the experience of effort itself?

But can't we say that the body that is writing these words does an effort to exist in this life?
Is the body writing? Is the body the doer?
Or the movements of the fingers just happen on their own, without anything making them to move?

Is the body aware of what is being written?
Is the body aware of these letters on the screen?

What do you do in this very moment in order to be?
does an effort to exist in this life?
Does the body exist IN life? Is there life + body? As two things?
Is the body something separate from life, or the body shows up AS life itself?
Does life happen TO the body or AS the body?

We can say that "effort" happens, or that a greater mental energy is required to make this body eat healthy food.
This suggest that there is something doing or having a mental energy to make the body eat healthily.

But what is it that decides what to eat? What decides to eat healthily?
And makes the body eat healthily? Is there someone forcing its will onto the body?
Is there someone exerting mental energy?

And what is the experience of ‘mental energy’?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:41 am

Those are a lot of questions =)
What is that that is making an effort to eat healthily?
There's no specific what here. The intention to eat healthy happens, and eating healthy creates a less comfortable stream of thoughts here.

Where is the one that is making effort?
There's no one in that sense.

And what is the experience of effort itself?
The experience is a thought saying "damn, this is harder than other options".

Is the body writing? Is the body the doer?
Or the movements of the fingers just happen on their own, without anything making them to move?
Neither the body or the fingers are the doers. These things are happening, that's clear.

Is the body aware of what is being written? Is the body aware of these letters on the screen? What do you do in this very moment in order to be?
The body is not "aware" of anything, it just experiences stuff and part of that stuff is thoughts and feelings. There's a feeling after the fact, after the action happens that the body is aware, but it is not.
And of couse, "I" do nothing in order to be because there's not such a thing in the first place, but the funny thing is that thoughts of an I still arise and if there's nothing that this body or anything can do, then, that's what happens as well: the feeling of a manager in the machine. And by feeling I mean that after things happen, there's something here that either thinks or feels "I am doing it". When I say "feels" I don't mean a specific feeling but the knowing without even thinking, that "I did it". Of course that knowing is false, but it feels as true.

Does the body exist IN life? Is there life + body? As two things? Is the body something separate from life, or the body shows up AS life itself?
The experience is one, the intellectual knowledge tells me two, but I won't reply intellectually because I'll be kicked out hahaha =)

Is there someone exerting mental energy? And what is the experience of ‘mental energy’?
Nobody is exerting the energy, but this body feels a less comfortable experience when it is pushing against its apparent -easier- preferences.

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:02 am

Hi Manolo,
And by feeling I mean that after things happen, there's something here that either thinks or feels "I am doing it". When I say "feels" I don't mean a specific feeling but the knowing without even thinking, that "I did it". Of course that knowing is false, but it feels as true.
If it feels true that I did it, then how do you know that it’s false?

Just because there are thoughts of ‘I did it’, does this mean that there is an actual I, an agency that does things?
Or this agency is just assumed, but without any ground in reality?

And of couse, "I" do nothing in order to be because there's not such a thing in the first place
Which sounds truer:
I don’t exist
or
the I as the separate self doesn’t exist in a way it was thought to exist. It exists only as an idea, but not as an actual agency with control and volition?

But you exist, don’t you? Just not as a separate self as being a small segment of life?

There's a feeling after the fact, after the action happens that the body is aware, but it is not.
But something is aware, is it not?

Just notice that knowing or being aware is constantly here.

Just notice that there is a knowingless / beingness / existence underneath all labels and thoughts. Can you notice it?

Does that knowingess or beingness needs an identity to say that this is what I am? Or it’s just IS as it is, without any name, label or identity?

Nobody is exerting the energy, but this body feels a less comfortable experience when it is pushing against its apparent -easier- preferences.
And what is pushing? Is there a pusher, or pushing is also just what is happening?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:37 am

Viv: You are tremendously generous with the time you are investing in this long conversation, and I am not doing what apparently has to be done.

When we began I felt it was clearer what was required on my part. Now I do not think what I have to be doing. I can reply to the questions but many of them will be replied intellectually and others can't be replied because are simply not felt.

Yes, I know there's knowing here, we can call it "I" but I really know nothing more. Life is felt as if there was a separate entity and when I start digging I can see there's none. Still this changes nothing. And I know nothing should change nothing, but then confusion arises and there's a feeling of going back to square 1, despite the fact that apparently, there's no square 1.

The same thing (either a body, mind, entity, "I", "me") that has a preference for chocolate instead of tomato, is having a preference over simple, probably single questions or exercises than talking too much, because it feels confusing.

So this time, I will not reply to those questions, which is hard, because your attitude with me is lovely.

Have a great weekend, Vivien!


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