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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:05 pm

Only thoughts know whether I am feeling my hand or the table.
Do thoughts know anything? Can they?
They do offer information, yes, but knowing?
It is possible for a few moments to just feel it as sensation without thoughts of hand or table at all, although the mind seems to want to automatically shift to one or other of 2 perspectives - thoughts about the hand and what the touch sensation feels like in the hand / say about the hand, or thoughts about the table and what the touch sensation says about the table.
Just one sensation, just one feeling.

Oh yes, thoughts kick in, sometimes in light speed and there is an lets call it impulse to shift to different perspectives, dividing the one feeling/sensation into different things. Watch this, it is wonderful that you noticed, this is the moment the separation game gets off.
There is a shifting possible between the one feeling/sensation and the dividing into perspectives, the turning of one into many and then back to one.
This is something to look for, the cracks in the system.

Open up for the cracks and be observant, even keen on catching them.
What about me and the other? Are there cracks too? Me and the tree? The flower? Try on everything.
Share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:01 pm

Do thoughts know anything? Can they?
No, they don't - just a poor choice of words. What is 'knowing'?

Open up for the cracks and be observant, even keen on catching them.
What about me and the other? Are there cracks too? Me and the tree? The flower? Try on everything.
Still watching/looking :-) More tomorrow...
When the focus is on the space between body and ceiling, what happens with body and ceiling?
The space feels continuous - like it permeates/underlies/is the fabric of both body and ceiling and everything else, extending out and out.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:22 pm

The space feels continuous - like it permeates/underlies/is the fabric of both body and ceiling and everything else, extending out and out.
I love that you sticked to it.
No difference.
Is there a body or a ceiling in the moment?

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:32 pm

Hope you had a good weekend :-)
Is there a body or a ceiling in the moment?
Not in direct experience no. Today I was sitting in the garden (all my 'good' work happens there, it seems) and it was clear that 'body' as 'a thing' is just an idea. It has felt so solid before, with inside and outside. But in actual experience there are just some sensations felt, not 'a body'. Sitting with the plants and the breeze and the birds, there were sense experiences, of which some were categorised by the mind as 'body sensations'. In terms of the body / space / ceiling exercise, the ceiling definitely didn't exist, with eyes closed, in DE. The body seemed to exist - but actually there were just sensations in the background - thoughts put them together and made 'body' in the head.

This was a suggested article on my browser today, interesting to see this come up: https://getpocket.com/explore/item/scie ... ket-newtab
Open up for the cracks and be observant, even keen on catching them.
What about me and the other? Are there cracks too? Me and the tree? The flower? Try on everything.
The cracks seem easier to find with things that are not other people... I was watching an ant and could see the cracks. And the rose plant. But people are tricky...

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:41 pm

Hope you had a good weekend :-)
Thanks, I did.

Please spend lots of time in the garden!!!! It seems to give you the extra bit of relaxation needed.
It has felt so solid before, with inside and outside. But in actual experience there are just some sensations felt, not 'a body'.
Not solid, no inside no outside.
How does this discovery make you feel?

Thanks, interesting article.
But people are tricky...
Says who? ;-)
What is it that suposedly makes people more tricky?

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:36 pm

Not solid, no inside no outside.
How does this discovery make you feel?
I've been feeling pretty chilled out :-)
What is it that suposedly makes people more tricky?
Looking today, I think it's because the story being told about people - the moment we see them - is so strong. You see a stranger in the street and immediately there are assumptions about them, judgements, comparisons - very habitual. Immediately thoughts create a 'person' with a story, they categorise, label and so on, and solidfy the person into your own story of them. And they are all trying to live out their own story of 'who I am' too.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:08 pm

Looking today, I think it's because the story being told about people - the moment we see them - is so strong. You see a stranger in the street and immediately there are assumptions about them, judgements, comparisons - very habitual. Immediately thoughts create a 'person' with a story, they categorise, label and so on, and solidfy the person into your own story of them. And they are all trying to live out their own story of 'who I am' too.
You found some good things. If it isn't exactly your pet, there seems to be more connected to other people story wis. Stories are produced no end, lots of beliefs how someone is, should be, why someone acts a certain way, what is expected and it goes on endlessly. That can be a lot of fixed stuff and it is always good like with everything else to have a good look at what we belief and expect of others but also of ourselves. We bind others this way and ourselves too.
And yes, others do the same with us.
Here it is so helpful to always have a fresh look and as you already do not to believe each and every thought.
But, of course there is a but, that it is more difficult to find the cracks when looking at people than at other things or beings is what exactly? Have a look for yourself - it might just be another belief....
It has felt so solid before, with inside and outside. But in actual experience there are just some sensations felt, not 'a body'.

Not solid, no inside no outside.
How does this discovery make you feel?
This question still needs an answer. :-)

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:24 pm

Not solid, no inside no outside.
How does this discovery make you feel?
Calm, somewhere deep down. Like everything is ok. Hard to describe really. Then the thoughts slide to one or another of the '2 perspectives' and it seems to be 'gone' - though obviously that can't be the case - and it feels uncomfortable compared to the previous moment.
It comes and goes - sometimes it seems obvious. Other times the separation thoughts are strong and I doubt it. It's a bit like a dirty window - I feel that I am starting to see what's there, sometimes I'm looking through an almost completely clear bit of window, most of the time I'm looking through a patchy bit of window, and fairly frequently I'm looking at a part that's completely obscured. The thing is, as soon as I start to try to pin it down / understand the separation thoughts are there.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:46 pm

Calm, somewhere deep down. Like everything is ok.
Beautiful.
Then the thoughts slide to one or another of the '2 perspectives' and it seems to be 'gone' - though obviously that can't be the case - and it feels uncomfortable compared to the previous moment.
If possible stay curious in situations like that, mild curiosity how something works out and feels like.
It's a bit like a dirty window - I feel that I am starting to see what's there, sometimes I'm looking through an almost completely clear bit of window, most of the time I'm looking through a patchy bit of window, and fairly frequently I'm looking at a part that's completely obscured. The thing is, as soon as I start to try to pin it down / understand the separation thoughts are there.
There will be a lot of switching to and fro and pinning it down makes it more static. It is a bit an odd thing, one can't really explain it and as soon as one trys thoughts hit in and the well used programm is on. What helps is giving up explaining, just let it go for the moment.

When you look back to when we started:
What changed? Feeling, situation, thoughts,expectations - whatever....
What stayed the same?
Give yourself time to answer this.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:36 pm

Had a poorly couple of days.

Am thinking about your questions, and observing - will let you know. I'm definitely fighting fewer 'internal battles' with my 'self', and if they do happen I don't take them very seriously.

One thing I will say - I don't seem to have that complete certainty I've seen with others, but maybe it's a case of keeping checking, verifying...

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:44 pm

I'm definitely fighting fewer 'internal battles' with my 'self', and if they do happen I don't take them very seriously.
Sounds good.
I don't seem to have that complete certainty I've seen with others, but maybe it's a case of keeping checking, verifying...
There is no dead line here, there is all the time in the world to see what is or not. And yes checking is helpful.

I hope you do feel better soon!

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:00 pm

I don't seem to have that complete certainty I've seen with others, but maybe it's a case of keeping checking, verifying...
There is no dead line here, there is all the time in the world to see what is or not. And yes checking is helpful.
Yesterday was a story of lots of frustration and being fed up with being ill. Anyway, today is another day...
I think most of the puzzle pieces are there - either there is a piece missing, or the pieces are there but have yet to fall into place... Where to look next? Any exercises that might be helpful? I could work through the exercises in Ilona's 'finding inner peace' series on youtube and see if there is anything I've missed/ not quite seen? Earlier in the week it was as if I had totally 'got it' and could see - everything made sense, everything was clear. Then obscured again. I've seen it written that 'once it has been seen, it can't be unseen' so feeling a bit confused/frustrated. Trying not to 'try' too hard and get in my own way! Lol.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:43 pm

I've seen it written that 'once it has been seen, it can't be unseen' so feeling a bit confused/frustrated.
Comparing is a pattern most of us know pretty well.....
Seeing it and living it as in a natural/normal state are two different shoes.
For many a people the seeing starts happening and and the same time the jo jo-ing has its field day. One day it is clear, next day hazy - this is perfectly ok - it is finding, balancing out a new status quo or overview.

It might be interesting to have a close look what the difference in action, feeling, emotion is when clear or hazy. What exactly happens/helps the clear or hazy?

And you already got it, right? Pushing oneself... what animal is that??????? Who is pushing whom? What is pushed? Does the idea that something like that could happen even make sense?

But an exercise never hurts plus it is fun.

1. Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other?
Is there a link between the two?

2. Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:30 pm

One day it is clear, next day hazy - this is perfectly ok - it is finding, balancing out a new status quo or overview.
I guess all the ordinary stuff of life has to carry on, so an equilibrium is needed / happens...
It might be interesting to have a close look what the difference in action, feeling, emotion is when clear or hazy. What exactly happens/helps the clear or hazy?
Today was a bit more of a clear day, though not 100%. Differences - calmer, less caught up in round-and-round thought loops, much more relaxed relationship with time and the things that need doing, physical symptoms can be there but balanced out more with awareness of other sense info. Who knows if being calmer makes it easier to see or vice versa - there's no way to know. There seems to be a balance needed - trying to force it, or desperately see does not work (= contraction, separating thoughts etc.), but being on the lookout for what is really here right now, and what is added by thoughts is useful.
Who is pushing whom? What is pushed? Does the idea that something like that could happen even make sense?
No, it doesn't really make sense. Pushing, pressuring 'myself' is a common, well trodden story here though.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other?
Is there a link between the two?
My old assuming brain says thought knows about sensation and sensation is influenced by thought (more negative thoughts about pain = greater pain). Stepping back a bit... neither 'know' anything. Sensation is not aware of thought. Thought appears to be aware of sensation because it labels it and describes it and presents opinions about it. But thought doesn't actually 'touch' sensation. Seeing doesn't know about hearing or vice versa, though often the two input streams are assimilated by assumptions/recognition, whatever into a cohesive 'picture' of what's going on. So perhaps, say, seeing and thinking are the same.
Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?
Logically it should be possible. In experience it seems like it requires a bit of a step back - if too close / identifying with one or the other you don't have the distance required to see both in balance. It appears as though it depends on the relative strength of the sensations / thought, but perhaps that's just an assumption - does one seem stronger than the other because of story only?

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:55 pm

I guess all the ordinary stuff of life has to carry on, so an equilibrium is needed / happens...
We love making it difficult for ourselves with telling us that once we have reached ..... (add whatever you like) life will be ..... (again add whatever you like). A good example is "Once I've seen through this illusion of self as the instigator of everything life will be calmer, easier to deal with and in general I will feel much better. Of course I will have clear seeing 100% of the time".
Though it sure would be amazing if it would work like that - it doesn't. We all like the easy route and usually forget that changing a life habit takes some cleaning away of stuff which simply will be in the way of the new path. Seeing through the self is like the starting shot for much more unravelling, some stuff will drop away easily and epiphanies will lighten the path, but there will be confusion, beliefs and the way we look at ourselves will have to crumble.
The key is No resistance to anything! :-)
Simply none.
Differences - calmer, less caught up in round-and-round thought loops, much more relaxed relationship with time and the things that need doing, physical symptoms can be there but balanced out more with awareness of other sense info. Who knows if being calmer makes it easier to see or vice versa - there's no way to know. There seems to be a balance needed - trying to force it, or desperately see does not work (= contraction, separating thoughts etc.), but being on the lookout for what is really here right now, and what is added by thoughts is useful.
Very good, force or too strong a focus isn't helpful at all.
Pushing, pressuring 'myself' is a common, well trodden story here though.
Don't so many of us know this story....... ;-)
Stepping back a bit... neither 'know' anything. Sensation is not aware of thought. Thought appears to be aware of sensation because it labels it and describes it and presents opinions about it. But thought doesn't actually 'touch' sensation.
Is thought aware or is there simply awareness?
It appears as though it depends on the relative strength of the sensations / thought, but perhaps that's just an assumption - does one seem stronger than the other because of story only?
Try to find an answer to this question. Look at the story and you find it.

Love,
Jadzia


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