Seems I could use a hand here

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Raquelflight
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:32 am

Hello Luchana,

Ok. Let's focus on one thing only. Let's focus on the thoughts and how they exactly interfere. First give some time for relax, really relax and try not think about the inquiry,if is it going to work, what's going on or what isn't going on etc...just relax.

For a whole day (it will be great if it is during the whole day) try to incorpotate as many moments as it's possible in focusing only at one thing - how thoughts are coming. Especialy the thought I, Tannis.
Try to notice the thought even it is for a while - maybe seconds. But many, many seconds during the whole day.

Just watch it how comes and goes and inquire:
Can this thought think?

Thoughts of any kind, on any subject, cannot think. Even thoughts that seem to be connected to feelings, do not have any capacity to think themselves.
Can it interfere?
Thoughts don't have intentions, and cannot act. They arise from nothing, and disappear back into nothing. No, they cannot interfere.
Can this thought do anything at all?
They cannot do anything at all. They are imaginary words, or images, sounds, that have no feelings, intentions, and no concrete qualities, as, they are not real.

They are not arranged, not planned, not controllable, and during this quieter day, there were many memories, and stories that arose. Stories attached to emotion....very amazing, and curious, why these forgotten ideas presented themselves.

A "to do list" repeatedly came, or some thing I "should" do.
A lot of ideas for things to create came.......these are appealing. I notice, and a thought response to these is ," this week is retreat. Not now."

Quietness, and more time alone, to just notice, and then, with noticing, they disappear more rapidly.

Thank you,

Tannis

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Luchana
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:24 pm

Hi Tannis,


you sort of give the 'right answers', but it doesn't mean that you really see them experientially.

A lot of ideas for things to create came.......these are appealing. I notice, and a thought response to these is ," this week is retreat. Not now."
LOOK directly

How exactly came this thought?

Is it you who bring it to existence?

Who or what is noticing?

Is the noticing separate from experience?



Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Raquelflight
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:23 am

Hello Luchana,
you sort of give the 'right answers', but it doesn't mean that you really see them experientially.
I agree. I stop, get still, look, I give the answers that come to me. I don't let your questions go, so quickly and easily, but, thats all.

How exactly came this thought?
I don't know. I didn't plan it. No one else did. No creature made it. I don't even know that it has gone.......or when.
Is it you who bring it to existence?
I didn't bring it. If I could bring it, I could stop it, I would stop it , take a rest from it........but, I have no control. Neither does any person, or creature. There is no thought planner for the day..."First, look at the pets, then think how cute they are, have a couple thoughts about that.....then, ask no one how smokey it is today, 4. i wonder if there's an email from Luchana yet... .....etc." no, no magician pulling thoughts out of her black hat........
Who or what is noticing?
nothing. no one. it just happens.
Is the noticing separate from experience?
noticing is the experience.

Thank you,

Tannis

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Luchana
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:32 pm

Hi Tannis,
I agree. I stop, get still, look, I give the answers that come to me. I don't let your questions go, so quickly and easily, but, thats all.
You are doing a good job.

I didn't bring it. If I could bring it, I could stop it, I would stop it , take a rest from it........but, I have no control. Neither does any person, or creature. There is no thought planner for the day..."First, look at the pets, then think how cute they are, have a couple thoughts about that.....then, ask no one how smokey it is today, 4. i wonder if there's an email from Luchana yet... .....etc." no, no magician pulling thoughts out of her black hat........
Is there something that you are in control of?
I don't know. I didn't plan it. No one else did. No creature made it. I don't even know that it has gone.......or when.

You did a good looking.
And how does it feel to see this? Is it something strange or simply ordinary? Or none of these?

noticing is the experience.


And how exactly the noticing is experienced?



Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Raquelflight
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:00 am

Hello Luchana,

Is there something that you are in control of?

The answer is "No".....but there is something sticking, here. Some resistance, even with the previous exercises.
ok, I have to do this lesson again. No choice= no control
Thoughts are not anticipated, or controllable,(can't keep them in mind, know which one is coming....or when) = no control.
There is still an idea that, there IS control, decision responsibility, choice. I need to look here. That idea is imaginary, but, the thought of its non-existence doesn't simply eliminate it. (Now I'm having trouble, getting confused with what exactly to say. Feel that I might have left this too late to work on, but, its only 8;30 pm, so. I'm going to stop here with this long response ....)

I went to something ...not so sticky.
Practice #1 "Who is here now"
Answer: no one

"What is here now?" - My first answer is usually seeing physical objects. Then, body sensations, senses (ex. hearing water dripping...feeling my feet touching my shoes)

These questions bring just being. Sometimes ,30 seconds later, I am talking to someone in my mind.
so again, I go to "Who /What is here now?"......Then, 1 minute later, talking to someone in my mind. (No one is here) More and more often, I get a space of just being here, between the imaginary conversations.

From here, when I ask what I can control........I can't find anything. There is silence.

Practice #2
Being still, feeling the body's response to statements :

"I can and do control things" -tightness
"I haven control over anything." relaxed
"I need to make decisions." - tightness
"There is nothing to decide." relaxed



Re: not planning a thought to create something....(or, ANY thought)
And how does it feel to see this? Is it something strange or simply ordinary? Or none of these?
It is still something strange and surprising, to find there is no participation in "thinking" of any kind. That an idea to make something, paint something.......this is a big part of acting as an individual, (we are lead to believe this is important, culturally), and to have artistic ideas.....that are actually imaginary, is not familiar.
I have never looked so closely at thoughts. previously, i thought i just had thoughts, and was thinking, so, this is not ordinary.
And how exactly the noticing is experienced?
I felt this was very important, to say Noticing is the experience. It really stood out to me. And the other side "the experience is the noticing." They can't be separated. noticing is experiencing the thoughts and sensations in the moment they appear.
I can just sit with this for.... a long time. These 2 sentences also bring me into just being.

Thank you,

Tannis

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Luchana
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:58 pm

Hi Tannis,
The answer is "No".....but there is something sticking, here. Some resistance, even with the previous exercises.
ok, I have to do this lesson again. No choice= no control
Thoughts are not anticipated, or controllable,(can't keep them in mind, know which one is coming....or when) = no control.
There is still an idea that, there IS control, decision responsibility, choice. I need to look here. That idea is imaginary, but, the thought of its non-existence doesn't simply eliminate it. (Now I'm having trouble, getting confused with what exactly to say. Feel that I might have left this too late to work on, but, its only 8;30 pm, so. I'm going to stop here with this long response ....)
I undersand what you're saying.There is a seeing that I am not in control and I have no choice and there is also a resistance to this seeing. This resistance is here because of the old belief that there is a separate center, which sees, contacts, acts, chooses and control life.
And when there is this seeing that everything is happening by itself and no one is responsible it seems that there is a contradiction. But this is only an idea (as you said) and can easily let go off with investigation and looking how are things are in reality. Looking and looking and more looking. Keep looking and inquire in your normal activities each time - hundreds of times check and see if a self can be found moving the body around - walking. dryving, typing, dressing, resting, Just look at reality, the simplicity, the evidence. The reality is very, very simple.

Is there something REAL, besides a thought?


There is an action and then immediately the thought claims credit for doing this action.
Can you see this?



Does a thought about the action make action happen?


And what would be lost exept one idea?


Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all the actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought. Give this some time.
It is still something strange and surprising, to find there is no participation in "thinking" of any kind. That an idea to make something, paint something.......this is a big part of acting as an individual, (we are lead to believe this is important, culturally), and to have artistic ideas.....that are actually imaginary, is not familiar.
I have never looked so closely at thoughts. previously, i thought i just had thoughts, and was thinking, so, this is not ordinary.
Yes, they have been told and taught us many things.
But when you're painting or have an impulse to create something, investigate:

Does the artist need a thought in order to paint?
I felt this was very important, to say Noticing is the experience. It really stood out to me. And the other side "the experience is the noticing." They can't be separated. noticing is experiencing the thoughts and sensations in the moment they appear.
I can just sit with this for.... a long time. These 2 sentences also bring me into just being.
Ok.
Let's put this question like this.

Are there two things? Experience and noticing?
Can the experience not be noticed?



Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Raquelflight
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:53 am

Hello Luchana,

Is there something REAL, besides a thought?
What is happening here now is real.

There is an action and then immediately the thought claims credit for doing this action.
Can you see this?
Oh my gosh! No! I don't see this.....and I was thinking....welll, maybe, kind of....but.......Actually, I don't! so, I need to just look here. If I can see this.....other things will follow, fall into place. control, choice, decisions. I don't know how to switch this.

Thats great! I need to really look here!!!

Does a thought about the action make action happen?

OMG! I feel like a bad student! I know the answer is "No', just from our discussions............but I feel, "Yes, I feel its happening in that order, thought then action." AHHH!
And what would be lost exept one idea?
nothing
Does the artist need a thought in order to paint?
No, its often better without it.
Are there two things? Experience and noticing?

no, they are the same.
Can the experience not be noticed?
No, it has to be noticed.
So, somehow, especially this idea of a person, while it doesn't stop the experiencing....it distracts from the noticing. It takes attention from the vividness of reality.

Thank you,

Tannis

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Luchana
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:51 pm

Hi Tannis,
What is happening here now is real.
But the question is - is there a REAL THING, a self which makes actions?

You have to literally look for an evidence.

Is there a real self outside of thought?

Oh my gosh! No! I don't see this.....and I was thinking....welll, maybe, kind of....but.......Actually, I don't! so, I need to just look here. If I can see this.....other things will follow, fall into place. control, choice, decisions. I don't know how to switch this.

Thats great! I need to really look here!!!
Yes, that's exactly what needs to be done - you have to look literally. The way you are looking for the keys or glasses. Look here now in this very moment:

Can it be seen clearly how thought creates action?
When you type on the keyboard do you say which finger where to go?
How exactly do you say it and to which finger precisely?

Write now something and look how it happens, don't imagine.
OMG! I feel like a bad student! I know the answer is "No', just from our discussions............but I feel, "Yes, I feel its happening in that order, thought then action." AHHH!


This investigation is far from discussion. Discussion can happen only on the intellectual level. Here you must look and inverstigate your own experience. It is so simple. Thinking and intellectualising, reasoning and discussion is simply complicating it.

And you don't have to worry if you are bad or good student..you just need to look :-)

"but I feel, "Yes, I feel its happening in that order, thought then action.", but Is this so in reality?

Let's focuse on this:

All day when it’s possible simply touch various things - blanket, table, the car seat , the skin of the hand…
In the same time notice the thoughts about the actions, which are happening.

What thoughts say about these sensation?

Do you need a particular thought in order to feel something?

Or sensation is simply happening?

Is the sensation knows the thought about a sensation?

Can you clearly distinguish the content of the thought (the story which tells about sensation) and the sensation itself?

What is real and what is not?


Be careful, reply only from experience, without any speculation, theory, imagination or fantasy.
Write only about the pure simple facts.

Much love.
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Raquelflight
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:39 am

Hello Luchana,
But the question is - is there a REAL THING, a self which makes actions?
So, today, I found only this experience to be real, and conversations coming up in the mind, to always be not real:the people imagined in the conversations.....NEVER real, THE imagined ME speaking to imaginary people, NOT real.......the conversations.....stories.

Actions are happening......I can't find a REAL THING, self, so, where would it be? if its never ever, ever, here?
It would be even stranger, than not finding a self...,..to actually finding one that has been, well, what would it have been doing all this time? that I can't find it? That would be really freaky, if it appeared.

Then, I find there is daydreaming, and no plan to "ACT".......so, actions just happening.
Is there a real self outside of thought?
NO, it only exists as a thought..........,.always having stupid conversations....I'm insane.
Can it be seen clearly how thought creates action?
NO, most of the time, I'm daydreaming, then kind of wake up a bit somewhere.

When you type on the keyboard do you say which finger where to go?
Sometimes. I think I have an idea "to Do" something .........and a whole bunch of actions just fill in to arrive at "finished"

How exactly do you say it and to which finger precisely?
I can't even imagine the difficulty in doing that.
Last night I made a diagram with a line from left to right, with, automatic cellular activity, heart beat etc. on the very left. Very important difficult decisions on far right. I tried to fill in at what point I feel "I" decide, then action takes place.

As I said , I feel I decide to do something like ..."get breakfast". Thats the decision, but all the small actions are automatically filled in. I can't find a REAL THING, but I have the feeling, this awareness, is .....making some decision to eat the leftover cake!

Then, for hours this evening, I did the following exercise. I set the timer for 10 minutes. Often after 10 minutes, when the timer went off, I hadn't had a thought, except to look for the self.......Where is it?

Where is it? and touching things. I have looked for hours, and .....a couple times, had to answer the phone, then had more imaginary conversations. But, for most of the evening, I have only been looking.........and found.......no self. Any thoughts.... just untrue stories......
If there is no self now.....(.i don't know what i was going to say.....) oops, bedtime.

All day when it’s possible simply touch various things - blanket, table, the car seat , the skin of the hand…
In the same time notice the thoughts about the actions, which are happening.

What thoughts say about these sensation?
I thing I am making a choice to touch something. But, as I feel, there is no thought that can come close to the actual feeling, and no words , no number of words can describe what the reality is like. Even after, no memory can compare to reality of sensation.
Do you need a particular thought in order to feel something?
Not at all.
Or sensation is simply happening?
Yes, its simple happening. Thoughts about it are not exactly at the same time, just after.

Is the sensation knows the thought about a sensation?
The sensation knows nothing of the thought.....is un affected by the thought. The thought is totally unnecessary to it.
Can you clearly distinguish the content of the thought (the story which tells about sensation) and the sensation itself?
Oh yes! easily.
What is real and what is not?
Sensation =real
Thought = imaginary

Thank you,

Tannis

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Luchana
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:37 pm

Hi Tannis,

I will be able to give you a reply tomorrow.
Can you do the exercise with the typing again?
Just keep investigate how this simple action happens.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Raquelflight
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:03 am

Sure!

No worries......I have many good exercises.....they all require more LOOKING!

Thank you,

Tannis

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Luchana
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:05 am

Hi Tannis,
"As I said , I feel I decide to do something like ..."get breakfast".
Can you describe the FEELING of deciding to do something, as precisely as you can, without adding anything extra.
No theories, no speculation, no stories, just the raw facts.

Where does the feeling come from?

Can the center (of this feeling) be located?

but I have the feeling, this awareness, is .....making some decision to eat the leftover cake!
You say that you have a FEELING that awareness is making decision.

And where is this FEELING located in the body?

What kind of feeling/sensation is this?

How does this sensation communicate the information that this is the 'feeling of awareness making decision'?

How do you know that this information is communicated by a sensation/feeling and not a thought?

Can awareness be felt?

I'm daydreaming, then kind of wake up a bit somewhere.

What is it exactly that is daydreaming?

What performs the act of daydreaming?

And what is it that wakes up from it?

Is there someone or something moving between two states, daydreaming and waking up?

If you say yes, what that is?

And where that is?


Take you time, relax and take a fresh look.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Raquelflight
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:55 am

Hello Luchana,


It is evening, and I have just read your email.

Today, I looked at small actions, which I couldn't begin to control, for example with typing, by giving my fingers specific details on how/where to go......

I looked for what is real, many times, (10 minute timer), throughout the day. I tried to just stay with what is here and now, not with thoughts that are coming up here and now, but experienced sensations. The sensations are real, and thoughts, perhaps totally imaginary. I say perhaps, as now I see I have "new" homework to look more specifically at decisions. I will look and answer your questions tomorrow....


Just want to tell you..... 'I'm still here!"

Thank you,

Tannis

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Luchana
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:16 pm

Hi Tannis,

sure, take your time.

And thank you for writting.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Raquelflight
Posts: 59
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:42 am

hello Luchana,
"As I said , I feel I decide to do something like ..."get breakfast".
Can you describe the FEELING of deciding to do something, as precisely as you can, without adding anything extra.
No theories, no speculation, no stories, just the raw facts.

Where does the feeling come from?
This feeling, is a thought. I don't catch the self taking ownership, after a decision, but, I cannot find any decision except as a thought......coming from wherever (nothing, nowhere, and gone into nothing, nowhere)

So, I try to make a decision right now, to pick up a book, then, I think I'll decide not to pick it up......Then pick it up......
I try to catch the decision, as something that the mind has taken over just after doing it, but.......I don't find that yet. I do see many thoughts arriving about picking up or not picking up a book.........and , those thoughts are not real. Then there is a real action of feeling the weight of the book as I pick it up.
Ok....I know..... look more here.

Can the center (of this feeling) be located?
no, it has the same (unreal) quality as a memory, anticipated future, daydream. The only difference, which is not 100% of the time, is action is often taken, but not always, after decision type of thought.
but I have the feeling, this awareness, is .....making some decision to eat the leftover cake!
You say that you have a FEELING that awareness is making decision.
And where is this FEELING located in the body?
Nowhere. It is an expression which really means...."I think", or "I have the impression..."...(also meaning, "I think")
Its just a thought. Its not real.
What kind of feeling/sensation is this?
There is no feeling, sensation. I can see thoughts more clearly, as , non existent.....there is no sensation to them. I have to keep looking here, as there is resistance to no decisions.
How does this sensation communicate the information that this is the 'feeling of awareness making decision'?
Well, there is NO sensation.
How do you know that this information is communicated by a sensation/feeling and not a thought?
I don't know that. Our, I should say, it IS a thought. Just a thought.
Can awareness be felt?
no, it cannot be felt. It is feeling, hearing seeing, noticing thoughts. it is experiencing......The experiencing is not a thing to be felt , existing on its own.

I'm daydreaming, then kind of wake up a bit somewhere.

What is it exactly that is daydreaming?
I haven't got an answer here. Then...
Nothing is daydreaming.
What performs the act of daydreaming?
Nothing. Its just ...dreaming. I don't have clarity here. I will look some more.
What ever is typing, sitting here, listening to a dog barking, performs daydreaming, experiences daydreaming.
And what is it that wakes up from it?
Oh, .....just this whatever is typing, daydreams and wakes up.
Is there someone or something moving between two states, daydreaming and waking up?
No, there is just this constant being, always changing.
If you say yes, what that is?
WEll, daydreaming is just another type of illusory thought. It is just thoughts.
And where that is?
This is a very weird answer that it doesn't exist. But the daydreaming and waking up are also just ideas that ....are not real.

I feel confused, I am not clear, and certain of things, but I have questions to look at. I answer, but for sure I feel I don't have answers, and, have more LOOKING to do. I don't answer the questions and assume they are "done".

Thanks for all your time!

Tannis


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