Chris's thread

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:48 pm

Hi Vivien
Rather it’s the discovery that this central controller just a fiction. It has never been there.
Do you see the difference?
Yes, I think I just meant that it’s hard for me to see it because I’ve been conditioned to interpret experience as being owned. The feeling of ‘me’ is still here even though I’ve definitely seen that there is no me.
Who or what has a problem of the sense of me?
I don’t really have a problem with it, I was just wondering if it ever went away. It just seems strange that it’s still here.
Who or what wants it to go away?
There isn’t a who or a what that wants it to go away.
And is there an actual problem with a ‘sense of self’?
I don’t think so. If it remains, so be it.
And how does this ‘sense of self’ show up? In what form or way?
I think it’s embedded in my thoughts, in the language I use: ‘I want food’, ‘my knee hurts’ etc. But I at least see that it’s just a thought, that there isn’t really an ‘I’ that’s doing or controlling everything.
I’m working a lot the next couple of days so will post when I can.

Thanks Vivien
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:26 am

Hi Chris,
I don’t really have a problem with it, I was just wondering if it ever went away. It just seems strange that it’s still here.
OK. So you have an expectation that the ‘sense of me’ should go away.
But why should it?

It’s been there in your whole life, but that sensation has never been an actual enduring, autonomous entity with free will.

If you still expect that it should go away, then the self is still believed in some ways.
You might still believe that that sensation is something more than a sensation.
And there might be still a belief that I am a separate entity at that location where that sensation appear, and that life is happening TO ME (as that ‘sense of me’).

But does life happening to that sensation labelled ‘sense of me’?
Is that sensation the experiencer of life?
Is that sensation an enduring, autonomous entity with free will?

Is that sensation the thinker?
Is that sensation the doer?
Is that sensation the controller?
Is that sensation the knower of experience?

Is that sensation the feeler of emotions?

I think it’s embedded in my thoughts, in the language I use: ‘I want food’, ‘my knee hurts’ etc. But I at least see that it’s just a thought, that there isn’t really an ‘I’ that’s doing or controlling everything.
So when you are talking about the ‘sense of me’ you are not even talking about a sensation?

Sense = sensation

How could a thought be the sense ( = sensation) of me?

So you’ve expected that the thoughts of I/me/my/mine would stop appearing after they are seen to be not belonging to an actual entity?

Why would they?


Is the thought ‘I want food’ is an entity who wants to eat?
Is this thought know anything about the sensation of hunger?
Is this thought aware? Or this thought is aware-d?

Is the thought ‘my knee hurts’ the one that actually FEEL the hurt in the knee?
Does this thought know anything about the pain?
Is this thought aware of the pain?

Or, you are aware of BOTH, the pain + the thought “my knee hurts”?


Please investigate these many times thoroughly before replying. Take your time. You don’t have to hurry. Rather be thorough.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:23 am

Hi Vivien

A lot to work with there, thank you. I probably won’t get a chance to post anything until Friday.

Speak soon
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:32 am

That's all right, you don't have to hurry. Just be thorough.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:32 pm

Hi Vivien

Annoyingly, I've had very little time the past few days but I'll have loads of time for the next 4 days so will get on it. Thanks for your patience. Really enjoying this, it's great.
If you still expect that it should go away, then the self is still believed in some ways.
It did seem odd to me that it hasn't entirely clicked. But I feel that I've definitely had glimpses of it.
But does life happening to that sensation labelled ‘sense of me’?
No, not at all. The sense of me just appears. Life would still be happening if it wasn’t there.
Is that sensation the experiencer of life?
No, it’s just another experience.
Is that sensation an enduring, autonomous entity with free will?
No, it can’t do or change anything.
Is that sensation the thinker?
No, thoughts happen without it.
Is that sensation the doer?
No, it does absolutely nothing except be an experience.
Is that sensation the controller?
No, there is no controller.
Is that sensation the knower of experience?
The sensation doesn’t know anything, it is just known.
Is that sensation the feeler of emotions?
No, emotions are felt separately from it.
So when you are talking about the ‘sense of me’ you are not even talking about a sensation?

Sense = sensation

How could a thought be the sense ( = sensation) of me?
After some consideration, I see now that it is just a sensation in my head; right in the middle.
So you’ve expected that the thoughts of I/me/my/mine would stop appearing after they are seen to be not belonging to an actual entity?

Why would they?
I didn’t expect them to stop appearing, just to have less impact. I think I was looking in the wrong direction here anyway. I don’t think these words are the issue.
Is the thought ‘I want food’ is an entity who wants to eat?
No, the thought is a separate appearance to the feeling of hunger.
Is this thought know anything about the sensation of hunger?
It’s not aware of anything.
Is this thought aware? Or this thought is aware-d?
The thought appears, it is not itself aware; it can’t be.
Is the thought ‘my knee hurts’ the one that actually FEEL the hurt in the knee?
No, the pain appears as it does, and the thought appears as it does. The two are not aware of one another but there is awareness of them.
Does this thought know anything about the pain?
No.
Is this thought aware of the pain?
No.
Or, you are aware of BOTH, the pain + the thought “my knee hurts”?
Both appear but neither are aware in and of themselves.

Thanks Vivien
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:42 am

Hi Chris,
It did seem odd to me that it hasn't entirely clicked. But I feel that I've definitely had glimpses of it.
At the beginning there are just glimpses. Later, when the self is fully seen through, there are still lots of flip-flopping (seeing it, not seeing it). So it won’t be stable for quite some time. There are many other beliefs and emotional wounds that pull us back to believing (temporarily) that there is an inherent self (even after the self is seen through). So this is not a quick fix, rather, a journey of a lifetime, an orientation to see life from a different angle, each day is an opportunity to discover a little more.
I didn’t expect them to stop appearing, just to have less impact. I think I was looking in the wrong direction here anyway. I don’t think these words are the issue.
But on who or what thoughts have an impact?

Please look very carefully with this, since this is often a stumbling block. Please really look at this deeply.

Since you still believe that thoughts have an effect on someone or something, on YOU. But is that so?

What do thoughts happen TO?

Investigate this repeatedly many-many times (50 or more repeatedly throughout the day) before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:32 pm

Hi Vivien
There are many other beliefs and emotional wounds that pull us back to believing (temporarily) that there is an inherent self (even after the self is seen through).
I think I’ve been getting this. My ability to see seems most impaired when I’m in the midst of some bitter memory.
But on who or what thoughts have an impact?
They have an effect on experience, since they are experienced. Certain words can trigger memories and emotions, but there is no separate self that they are impacting.
Since you still believe that thoughts have an effect on someone or something, on YOU. But is that so?
I think words have an effect, I just can’t find any self that would be affected.
What do thoughts happen TO?
I can’t see how thoughts happen to anything. Clouds don’t happen to the sky. Thoughts just appear and become part of awareness.

Thanks Vivien
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:10 am

Hi Chris,
I think I’ve been getting this. My ability to see seems most impaired when I’m in the midst of some bitter memory.
But what is it that could be in the midst of a bitter memory?
What do ‘bitter memories’ happen TO?
V: But on who or what thoughts have an impact?
C: They have an effect on experience, since they are experienced. Certain words can trigger memories and emotions, but there is no separate self that they are impacting.
OK. There is still a belief about separation.

If you say that thoughts have an effect ON experience, then you assume that thoughts and experience are two separate things. Otherwise, thoughts cannot have an effect on it, only if thoughts are somehow separate from experience.

But look closely.

Are thoughts actually separate from experience?
Does experience have parts?
Or experience is whole, without any separate parts, or any separation at all?
When there is a thought, then isn’t that thought is what IS?
Isn’t that thought how experience show up in that moment?

I can’t see how thoughts happen to anything. Clouds don’t happen to the sky. Thoughts just appear and become part of awareness.
So here there is the assumption of separation again.

Are thoughts actually separate from awareness?
So thought somehow outside of awareness, and they come into awareness, to be the part of it?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:33 pm

Hi Vivien
C: I think I’ve been getting this. My ability to see seems most impaired when I’m in the midst of some bitter memory.
V: But what is it that could be in the midst of a bitter memory?
The character Chris is in the midst of a bitter memory. I get lost in the character/ as the character.
It’s just harder to see things as they really are when this is happening. I feel more like there’s a separate self in this situation; I get pulled into it. I think I just got a bit ill one day last week, and being ill made me angry. I was getting regular glimpses but since that day (Thursday) it’s like I’m starting over again. Very frustrating.
Remembering what I discovered about the story has only just come back to me this evening, moments before writing this. So some of my thoughts may still be a little confused.
What do ‘bitter memories’ happen TO?
They happen to the character Chris. They get woven into the story. Chris is not happy.
Are thoughts actually separate from experience?
No, they are part of it, embedded in it.
Does experience have parts?
Yes, like vision, sounds, thoughts etc.
Or experience is whole, without any separate parts, or any separation at all?
I wouldn’t say so.
When there is a thought, then isn’t that thought is what IS?
Sorry, I don’t understand.
Isn’t that thought how experience show up in that moment?
Yes, the thought appears as an experience.
Are thoughts actually separate from awareness?
No, they are themselves experienced.
So thought somehow outside of awareness, and they come into awareness, to be the part of it?
No, they only exist as part of my awareness, as far as I am aware. Thoughts are not happening TO experience, but AS experience.

Thanks
Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:50 am

Hi Chris,
The character Chris is in the midst of a bitter memory. I get lost in the character/ as the character.
What is this I that gets lost IN or AS a character?
Where is this I?


You say that Chris-character is in the midst of a bitter memory.

But where is this Chris?
Is there a real Chris?
Is there any other Chris than the word ‘Chris’?

Can the word ‘Chris’ experience the bitter memory?

Can the bitter memory be ABOUT the word ‘Chris’?

When you talk about Chris, what do you talk about exactly?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:55 am

Hi Vivien
What is this I that gets lost IN or AS a character?
There is no I, there’s just a belief in a character that my mind creates that is mistaken for I, the central manager.
Where is this I?
It isn’t anywhere it is just belief.
You say that Chris-character is in the midst of a bitter memory.
But where is this Chris?
He isn’t anywhere; in the same way that my belief in black holes isn’t anywhere.
Is there a real Chris?
No, it’s a fictional character, believed to be the one in charge up until now.
Is there any other Chris than the word ‘Chris’?
Not in reality, no.
Can the word ‘Chris’ experience the bitter memory?
Definitely not.
Can the bitter memory be ABOUT the word ‘Chris’?
No.
When you talk about Chris, what do you talk about exactly?
The character that my thoughts spontaneously create and that is mistakenly thought to be the commander.
I think I got myself in a bit of a muddle yesterday. When you said:
What do ‘bitter memories’ happen TO?
I should have said that bitter memories are simply experienced like all other thoughts. So they occur AS experience. But they also get woven into this patchy story- the story of Chris.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:00 am

Hi Chris,
There is no I, there’s just a belief in a character that my mind creates that is mistaken for I, the central manager.
The mind creates the belief in a character?
How do you know that it’s done by a mind?

Have you ever seen a mind?

What is the experience of a mind in this very moment as you observe it?

Do you believe that thoughts are created by and coming from a mind?
Can this assumption stand up to scrutiny?

The character that my thoughts spontaneously create
Your thoughts? What is owning thoughts?

What do thoughts happen TO?
What is having thoughts?

And what do emotions happen TO?
What is having emotions?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:01 pm

Hi Vivien
C: There is no I, there’s just a belief in a character that my mind creates that is mistaken for I, the central manager.
V: The mind creates the belief in a character?
How do you know that it’s done by a mind?
I worded it badly. Experience is the mind. The beliefs aren’t created by the mind, they are part of it.
Have you ever seen a mind?
No, I experience its contents- thoughts, sights, sounds etc.
What is the experience of a mind in this very moment as you observe it?
Again, I only experience the contents.
Do you believe that thoughts are created by and coming from a mind?
I don’t think the mind is creating or incepting thoughts; that would make them 2 separate things. I think that thoughts are a manifestation of the mind.
Can this assumption stand up to scrutiny?
Not as you put it.
C: The character that my thoughts spontaneously create
V: Your thoughts? What is owning thoughts?
Nothing owns thoughts, they just happen. Thoughts (that are not owned) create a character (that is not owned). The whole thing is undirected and spontaneous, untethered from any creator.
What do thoughts happen TO?
They don’t happen to anything. Awareness of a thought and its happening are one and the same thing. It’s hard to find the right words. Thoughts don’t happen TO awareness, they happen AS awareness. I feel like I’ve given you a version of this answer already. Is there something I’m missing?
What is having thoughts?
Nothing is having thoughts, they are just being experienced.
And what do emotions happen TO?
Again, nothing; they are just experienced.
What is having emotions?
No one, emotions are simply occurring.

Vivien, I can't deny that I'm getting a bit impatient. I know that I shouldn't, but last last week I thought I was really starting to get it. Then I got a bit ill and poof! it's gone again. I can't see it now; not for days. That's the second time this has happened. Is this normal? I've been at it for months now.

Thanks
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:05 pm

In the awakenings I read before, the guide kept saying that it was 'a one-time seeing and then you're done'. Maybe this is an expectation I should have put aside but I really didn't expect it would take this long, or that it would be so up and down. I really appreciate you sticking with me all this time though, I can't thank you enough.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:26 am

Hi Chris,
I worded it badly. Experience is the mind. The beliefs aren’t created by the mind, they are part of it.
How do you know that experience = mind?
What makes you think that?

Isn’t mind believed to be the place where thoughts and memories are stored, and where thoughts are coming from?
Isn’t the mind believed to be inside the head?
Is there such place in reality?

Is there a mind outside of thoughts that talk about one?

I don’t think the mind is creating or incepting thoughts; that would make them 2 separate things. I think that thoughts are a manifestation of the mind.
So you wrote down what you think.

But is it clear that what we do here is to question your thoughts, beliefs and assumptions?

How do you know that thoughts are the manifestations of a mind? What is the proof for this?
Where is this mind you are talking about?

Nothing owns thoughts, they just happen. Thoughts (that are not owned) create a character (that is not owned).
Are thoughts actually create a character?
Are thoughts that powerful?
Are you saying that thoughts have abilities and can do things, like creating the me-character?
Is there an actual creator of the me-character?
Vivien, I can't deny that I'm getting a bit impatient. I know that I shouldn't, but last last week I thought I was really starting to get it. Then I got a bit ill and poof! it's gone again. I can't see it now; not for days.
What is it exactly that you can’t see?

You wrote:
No one, emotions are simply occurring.
Again, nothing; they are just experienced.
They don’t happen to anything. Awareness of a thought and its happening are one and the same thing.
Nothing owns thoughts, they just happen.
You wrote the above, but at the same time you say that you can’t see.

So does this mean that what you wrote above is something you cannot see NOW, and you only wrote from MEMORY?

Or is there something else you cannot see?
Vivien, I can't deny that I'm getting a bit impatient.
Who is getting impatient? Who?

Is there an I that is getting impatient?
Is there a Chris getting impatient?
Is there a person getting impatient?
Is there an entity getting impatient?
Is the body getting impatient?
Is the sensations of the chest getting impatient?
Is the I-thought getting impatient?
Is the story about Chris getting impatient?

What is the experience of being impatient?

What or who is it that wants to get somewhere and achieve something?
In the awakenings I read before
Look, it doesn’t really matter what you read, what you heard, what others say. All of those just stories that we take on as a belief. The only thing that matters what you can SEE HERE NOW. That’s all.

All comparison is based on the belief that there is a me, who can get somewhere, who can achieve something. Who is progressing or not progressing, and who wants to itself THE THING that others have or wrote about.
the guide kept saying that it was 'a one-time seeing and then you're done'.
Whoever wrote that this is simply not the case. This might be true for a very few, one in a million, but for the rest of us it’s simply not how it is.

Do you remember that some time ago I offered you a private session? I offer you it again. I cannot really know where you are at the moment based on what you write, and probably you don’t know it either. With a back and forth face-to-face investigation we might be able to figure it out. I don’t know how else I could help you. There is something that you stumble over what you are not seeing and not communicating to me.

The private message I sent you a while ago is still in your inbox, unopened, unread. Please go and read it, and let me know how you decide.
really appreciate you sticking with me all this time though, I can't thank you enough.
You are welcome :)

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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