... a dandilion on the wind ...

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tombi
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... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby tombi » Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:51 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Intellectually I think this means there is no separate self, just life living itself. Relaxed abundance.
However! Big view is very easily forgotten in the humdrum of every day and i constrict into a me.
A me that gets offended, a me that takes everything personally. Scarcity mentality me.

What are you looking for at LU?
A way to cut through the noise of the story lines that surround my lived experience. A knowing that leads to compassion and understanding for the needy story lines of others. Insight as to how I can best lay down or unravel my stories and the courage to become me-less. A clarity that supports maturing out of the neediness of me towards a confidence of living without me. I wonder too if this process could support more settled alone time.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To learn, and perhaps work through challenging or tightly held concepts with gentleness and patience. Perhaps ultimately, to be able to experience life in a more authentic way. But really I don't quite know what to expect. I did not know what to put in the thread title.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Many and varied. Have learnt the difference between religion and spiritual.
Mostly stick with vipassana meditation these days.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

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Lubo
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby Lubo » Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:06 pm

Hi tombi,

shall I call you like this or you prefer another name?

My name is Lubo and I can support you here in this journey if you want?

I can help you by pointing where to look. It is you who have to look. For the time of this investigation it is good when you receive the questions to stay with them and look again and again, for a whole day. Then reply in the end of the day or next day. It's essential to keep this investigation alive each day.

How to use quote functions look here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
It will be easier for both of us.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8
Why did you reply with 8 on this question?

Before we start it's important to know that this is not a formal knowledge. Here you will have to overcome all of your believes. This is a serious work and there must be a burning desire for truth.

So, are you really ready to start?

Lubo

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tombi
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby tombi » Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:51 am

Hallo Lupo: my call-name is "sally". tombi is the zulu word for "girl". Formative years were spent in Africa. Either is ok.

Thanks for saying hallo!

iro: how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self'.

The reason I wrote 8 (although the internal urge / response felt like an 11), was humility at knowing there maybe times am blinded to the obvious although once understood - what may initially appear like obtuse lack of comprehension - becomes clear seeing.

The 2nd reason was just the ebb and flow of living with time constraints. Rather be slow to process & understand, than fast and confused. Or at least those are the memory of hesitations that come forward when choosing 8 over 10.

Yes please and thank you, for your offer of assistance with pointing!

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Lubo
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby Lubo » Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:11 pm

Hi Tombi,

Thank you for your trust.
Now I understand why you pointed to 8.
It is beautiful to express humility in such a way.

I read your intro couple of times and some things pop-up.
A way to cut through the noise of the story lines that surround my lived experience. A knowing that leads to compassion and understanding for the needy story lines of others. Insight as to how I can best lay down or unravel my stories and the courage to become me-less.
What is the problem with the stories?
Some people spend much money to read or watching all kind of stories even horror ones :)
A me that gets offended, a me that takes everything personally
What does this me look like? Can it be drawn, smelled, heard or felt?

My name is Lubo but I like very much the way you called me. For you let be Lupo :)

Love,
Lupo.

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tombi
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby tombi » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:30 am

Ha! Apologies for the typo of your name, but am glad it worked out fun ;-)

Stories!

Nothing wrong with stories at all in a broader context. Stories can be very entertaining and fun. What I meant is that what I think of as "me", is really just a collection of stories (perspectives?). Stories I have been told and ones that I believe have been my experience. These stories (pleasant, unpleasant, horror even) weave together to become the nub of who I think I am. My "truth". These beliefs can be the reason why people don't change and grow. Stories can be tightly held and many more metaphors. They are the padding that make me think I am a separate entity. For example I always thought ice cream was a treat. This is the programming I received. It was my "story" around ice cream until one day I realised, I really don't like that stuff that I get, which has (for all these years) been treated as something special and rare. What I enjoyed far more was the trip to the shop in the car with my father and spending time with him. Another example, something bad happened and someone died. I was alone and began to "ugly cry". Then I realised, HEY! I don't need the drama of an ugly cry. Am performing in a way that I had seen others act when sad (mostly in movies). Not acting like that didn't mean that I was NOT sad or devastated even. The insight was that grief can be quiet and deep and private and very real without being "a show". Does this help to clarify what I mean about stories? Last example: I was born in India and my mother always told me I was a "souvenir from India". For years this lead me to think that I was really very special. Not until years later did I work out that millions are born in India. It does not make me special. The truth was that I was a menopause baby. My mum was of an age when she didn't think she could get pregnant any more. That was her story. Later on I came to recognise an exaggerated and self-indulgent quality around some stories in myself and in others ... sentimental stories where people would lament but do nothing. I differentiate between soft skills, tenderness and caring that provokes action and sentimental behaviour in an exaggerated or perhaps false way.

Me!??

Sometimes I think it can be felt and this maybe comes from stories (as mentioned above). Beliefs that make me think I'm a me. Separate.

Intellectually I know there is no me. No I. This question I spent a long weekend contemplating on a Buddhist retreat on death and dying and it was the 1st time I realised that there is "no physical me". Having never asked this question nor contemplated it ... it kind of irritated me initially. However I stuck with it ... and have spent a lot of time working through the stories many of which I have been dropped.




However I often forget this. When fearful

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tombi
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby tombi » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:42 am

Hi LuPo

My apologies ... my reply ended abruptly as my dog disrupted me. It was all happy and fun but I realise I may have hit send and ended unclearly. Now time is tight but a little more can be shared about "me".

Fear and ego cause me to constrict around my sense of "me" and make me feel separate. Anger too has this effect.
As I said previous - I have an intellectual understanding but the felt sense ... the practical lived experience is affected by fear and ego. I hope I explain myself clearly.

It took me a while to work out that mind and brain were different and that it is the nature of the mind that thoughts just arise. I've been meditating on and off (exploring) since 1996-ish. Not seriously in the beginning. In more recent times I started to lean towards Tibetan buddhism (2012ish) and have undertaken some vajrayana studies (but no longer engage with this due to clergy misconduct) With Ngöndro practice I was able to get in touch with a much more subtle sense of my energy. At the time I was also nursing my mother who was in very advanced stages of dementia. She could no longer speak but we communicated non-the-less through touch and squeezes and smiles and sounds. Because we couldn't speak I sang to her a lot. Many hymns and tunes learned over the years from her that had meaning for her. I could tell which she loved most as she would squeeze my hand tighter or pull me in and touch our foreheads together ... she gave me the practical lived experience of how subtle her energy was becoming and I'm deeply grateful for that.

So a "me"? Perhaps I am just breath ... I honestly don't know for sure but I am not separate. In hypnosis (once only as I do not tend to need to "chase states" or replicate experiences) I was guided through a process called past life regression. While I did not experience myself as other people or having lived other lives I did experience myself (with gentle questions and suggestions) as part of a greater energy. I battle to write about this as the experience is made small with mere words. There was no question that it was a feeling of being at home being joined with the one and being love. There was the most incredibly brilliant light and I belonged, we all belonged. This was one of the most moving and profound experiences of my life. I had no idea what it meant (around 2010 - pre Tibetan buddhist studies). Very moving and really beyond words.

This is my experience for now. Thank you for reading.

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Lubo
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby Lubo » Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:59 am

Wow, Tombi,
it is a wonderful story with colourful experiences of different kinds. It can be an amazing movie!
Thank you very much for your honesty and openness.

We will continue our research in a different way. I’ll ask you some questions and you will answer what is here now only, no memories, no thinking, just what is absolutely real now. OK ?
Please answer each question one by one by using quote function.

Let’s start with this ones:
- what is the colour of the wall in front of you? Or nearby
- Is there a sound in this moment?
- are there sensations?
- is there a smell?
- are there thoughts?


In the same way reply to the next questions:
Stories
Where the stories live now, where we can find them now in this moment? The way like you see a colour of the wall in front of you?

Can the stories be touched, smelled or be tasted now?
Me
- what is the power of me, what can me do now in this moment - write me examples what me is doing?

- Is there a difference between wanting to control, trying to control and actual control?

- What are you controlling right now, give me examples?

- What do you want to control right now?


The wolf Lupo :)

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tombi
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby tombi » Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:30 am

Hi again:
- what is the colour of the wall in front of you? Or nearby
white
- Is there a sound in this moment?
Fan of my lap top
- are there sensations?
Maybe for a bio break?
- is there a smell?
No. Neutral
- are there thoughts?
Thoughts about the painter coming to give an estimate for work.
Where the stories live now, where we can find them now in this moment? The way like you see a colour of the wall in front of you?
Probably in my mind somewhere. Memory?
Can the stories be touched, smelled or be tasted now?
No.
- what is the power of me, what can me do now in this moment - write me examples what me is doing?
Me has the power to choose,
the power to act. Slight difference.

My power to choose is pretty basic and is above more this (attraction), less that (aversion). It can be exercised by choosing to reply, or not. Almost every minute of every day one is choosing a little more of this, a little less of that e.g.: get up now, or stay in bed for 5 more minutes. Eat toast or cereal. Wear a pink or a brown. Answer a nasty comment or ignore, and so on.

Power to act is demonstrated by initiating choices made above.
- Is there a difference between wanting to control, trying to control and actual control?
yes
- What are you controlling right now, give me examples?
Am keeping the dog inside due to rain and as I'm typing right now I guess I control the keyboard (like driving, riding bike, using aircon or TV). Perhaps controlling an impulse?
- What do you want to control right now?
To control the outcome of a horrid situation I'm in with a builder who is ripping me off.
Lupo the wolf
Had to Google this. Never before heard of the Black Hand or Lupo the wolf even though I have lived in NYC.

Thanks Lupo. Hope I understood you enough to respond in a helpful way.

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Lubo
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby Lubo » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:06 pm

Hi Tombi,

Nice work!
Now in the same way answer to the following questions from the exercises:

- Turn the hand up and down several times and notice what happens first - thought, action, impulse to do it?
Could it happen differently?
How the choosing which hand to turn happen exactly?

- Now go to the other room and notice is there a thought about every movement?
When you go back, wait for a thought to appear before each movement of the legs and arms - something like this: left leg one step with right hand move, now right leg with left hand …do this for each movement as you return.
What happened?

- Now play your favorite music and dance.
Notice while dancing whether there is a connection between thoughts and body movements?
Do the thoughts know what the body does?
Does the body know which thought is here?

Lupo is Italian word for wolf, it is a joke. I didn’t now what google says about this ;)

Love
LuBo

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tombi
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby tombi » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:56 am

Hi LuBo :)
- Turn the hand up and down several times and notice what happens first
- thought, action, impulse to do it?
Could it happen differently?
How the choosing which hand to turn happen exactly?
It seems that action happened first but perhaps I thought about it very quickly for the response to be so immediate.
Used the non dominant hand.
Yes it could happen differently for example by thinking about it more before execution.
- Now go to the other room and notice is there a thought about every movement?
No - instinctual.
When you go back, wait for a thought to appear before each movement of the legs and arms - something like this: left leg one step with right hand move, now right leg with left hand …do this for each movement as you return.
What happened?
On the return it seemed that I was walking as if in slow motion, thoughts were laboured and other thoughts sort of sprung off the current thought. e.g. decision to stop and use chap stick that caught my eye. How it felt on the lip. My being felt much more soft and subtle while walking in the slow motion state.
Now play your favorite music and dance.
Notice while dancing whether there is a connection between thoughts and body movements?
Off and on, not always, perhaps a little self conscious initially because of being asked to do this but it became instinctual when I relaxed. Then I began to smile and smile and then it brought me to tears**, I felt humbled and grateful and awed by the experience of being alive. Part of something bigger. Irony? ... the song lyrics? Eurythmics, sweet dreams (I know you didn't ask the tune)

Do the thoughts know what the body does?
not always ... it's seems instinctual although at times it also seems that part of the response to different tunes is from learned behaviour, either from my African nanny (instinctual) or my father: the two step, waltz and traditional timings like this but with my interpretation. This is saying too much ... it was a subtle, fleeting thought. A feeling?

Another song, sung by a famous black woman, using French lyrics and latin beats combined what I know with my instincts, although it all seemed instinctual responses. Moving as one felt the tune.
Does the body know which thought is here?
No often not. Sometimes yes. Every time I think yes it the answer it seems like it's coming from my head.
Softer quieter - intuition - seems to come from the body. Perhaps I don't know the answer.


**thanks LuBo - this alone was worth experiencing. Deep gratitude.
tombi

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Lubo
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby Lubo » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:25 am

Hi Tombi,
Off and on, not always, perhaps a little self conscious initially because of being asked to do this but it became instinctual when I relaxed. Then I began to smile and smile and then it brought me to tears**, I felt humbled and grateful and awed by the experience of being alive. Part of something bigger. Irony? ... the song lyrics? Eurythmics, sweet dreams (I know you didn't ask the tune)
So beautiful! Yes, when we return from the world of thoughts to reality, we get something like relaxation, liberation ... returning home. You can make authentic movement every day. Let the body make whatever movements it desires, to feel freely all the feelings that come.
It seems that action happened first but perhaps I thought about it very quickly for the response to be so immediate.
Used the non dominant hand.
Yes it could happen differently for example by thinking about it more before execution.
Do the hand flip exercise several times a day and watch what happens first, the thought or impulse, action or description?

Love
Lubo

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tombi
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby tombi » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:35 am

Hallo again!

Have been doing and considering this ...
Do the hand flip exercise several times a day and watch what happens first, the thought or impulse, action or description?
and only now as I begin to write - do I think that dancing and hand flipping might be linked. I thought about the hand flipping while I was swimming in the ocean ... did I learn to swim so long ago that it becomes instinctual ... moving through the surf is very immediate, joyful, life affirming.

I really can't tell what happens ... I think the hand flipping is instinctual but that I can observe myself doing it which makes me think it's driven by thoughts. Does this make sense?

Am looking forward to going further.
;-P

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Lubo
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby Lubo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:12 pm

Hi Tombi,
Please use correctly quote function. Before sending it press “preview” and if you are happy with the result press “submit”.
...and only now as I begin to write - do I think that dancing and hand flipping might be linked. I thought about the hand flipping while I was swimming in the ocean ... did I learn to swim so long ago that it becomes instinctual ... moving through the surf is very immediate, joyful, life affirming.
Tombi, all this is just a thought.
If you want to see trough the illusion, you must see the difference between thoughts and reality. Thoughts create the illusion. You cannot find reality in the thought, thats why you must look and not think about the exercise.
I really can't tell what happens ... I think the hand flipping is instinctual but that I can observe myself doing it which makes me think it's driven by thoughts. Does this make sense?
You are not doing the exercise and it’s a simple exercise. You need to spend time observing.

What does it mean “instinctual”? It’s just a thought trying to explain what is happening. Every movement is instinctual.

What happens first, an impulse, action or thought about an action? Does thought about the action make action happen? Or it claims credit for doing after action happens?

What if there really is no controller and everything is happening by itself? What would be lost?

Important - we (in our investigation) are not interested in what thoughts tell you about these questions, because they are empty, an empty box, there is nothing in them.
Just look and answer :)

Love

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tombi
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby tombi » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:29 am

Hi LuBo:
Please use correctly quote function.
Apologies!
What if there really is no controller and everything is happening by itself? What would be lost?
This would be fine, no problem at all. Merely an adjustment in understanding. Nothing lost at all.
all this is just a thought
Thank you for clarifying.

I love this:
(thought)claims credit for doing after action happens

... I felt this but could not express.

LuBo - I assure you I've been doing the exercise several times a day. Perhaps I was striving for the "right" choice for the answer from the options mentioned:
watch what happens first, the thought or impulse, action or description
in truth, I was actually lost for an answer. I felt there was no "first" as the action just happened. While working or when taking a moment between tasks, I remember to do the exercise and the action just happens.

Thanks for your patience.

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Lubo
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Re: ... a dandilion on the wind ...

Postby Lubo » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:20 pm

Hi Tombi,
What if there really is no controller and everything is happening by itself? What would be lost?
This would be fine, no problem at all. Merely an adjustment in understanding. Nothing lost at all.
Yes! Exactly. This is only shift in understanding. Can you really see that there is no controller and everything is happening by itself?
in truth, I was actually lost for an answer. I felt there was no "first" as the action just happened. While working or when taking a moment between tasks, I remember to do the exercise and the action just happens.
You did a good looking!

Now, can you check - What is not happening on automatic?

Answer every question one by one. Look many times during the day.

Is there a thought response to the action?

Can you clearly see how thought creates movement?

Can there be movement without thought?

When you type on the keyboard do you say which finger where to go? How exactly do you say it and to whom do you say it? on your fingers?
Write something and look, don't imagine it ;)

Love
lubo


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