Goodbye me!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:36 am

Hi Manolo,
It incredibly moves by itself, and there's no focus-er. Apparently there's one, by clearly there's none. And I say "apparently" because there's a feeling as if the combination of attention plus thought is "me", but I'm not claiming that's the way it is, it is just how it feels: thoughts + attention is Manolo
OK. This feeling is important. Since this gives the impression of there being an autonomous, independent self/me doing things. So we have to dig deeper here. Since this needs to be seen a lot, otherwise you can be easily fooled by it in the midst of your everyday life when not looking and investigating.

So stay with this FEELING of the combination of attention plus thought is "me".
Just stay with it and FEEL it.

Where does this FEELING is located in the body?

When you don’t call this feeling anything, when you don’t give it any name, when you don’t label it, then what can you discover about this feeling, as a feeling only?

As much as the bird that is singing outside. Does the sound of the bird controls the attention? Nope. Sometimes the attention is in that sound, and sometimes in the thought. But neither controls the attention. The bird might start singing louder and the attention will probably move there for a bit, but then it will switch back to thought.
OK, so you are using a metaphor here. My question is:

Do you actually see this in this very moment experientially, or rather it’s an understanding coming from logical thinking?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:37 am

So stay with this FEELING of the combination of attention plus thought is "me". Just stay with it and FEEL it.

Where does this FEELING is located in the body?
So far, I don't know. Let me retry during the day. When this happens I'm essentially "lost in thought" and when I'm back I realize the attention was overtaken by thoughts, but there's no particular feeling. I will retry several times today and come back to it.[/quote]

As much as the bird that is singing outside. Does the sound of the bird controls the attention? Nope. Sometimes the attention is in that sound, and sometimes in the thought. But neither controls the attention. The bird might start singing louder and the attention will probably move there for a bit, but then it will switch back to thought.
OK, so you are using a metaphor here.
Haha =) No I am not! I was literally describing the singing of a bird that was coming from the outside of my home. I was saying that the attenion has no will or controller, it just moves depending on what's happening and what "seems interesting" each moment. Attention can be on a thought about work, but then, it switches to the sounds outside, then it goes back to a thought. Attention seems to be moving freely.

My question is:

Do you actually see this in this very moment experientially, or rather it’s an understanding coming from logical thinking?
Very good question, Vivien. In that moment I felt it and that's where my reply came from, but right now it's a remembering, a thought coming from memory.

If you agree, I can retry a a couple of days the same exercise to see if it "sticks" and the feeling, the experiencing it is permanent.


This is fun, Vivien =)

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:20 am

Hi Manolo,
If you agree, I can retry a a couple of days the same exercise to see if it "sticks" and the feeling, the experiencing it is permanent.
Yes, please stay with this feeling for some time.

But what do you expect to become permanent?

Very good question, Vivien. In that moment I felt it and that's where my reply came from, but right now it's a remembering, a thought coming from memory.
Thanks for your honesty. Let’s see what happens here. So you saw something, but now it’s just a memory, which means that in this moment it’s just a belief. If I cannot see something in this moment, then it’s just a belief now. It doesn’t matter if I saw it just a minute ago, if I cannot see it now, then I just rely on that memory and I just believe it.

I’m not implying that seeing should happen 24/7, which won’t, but rather that every time when you look, it should be easy to see it. If it’s not, then it means that more work is needed.

So look into this more. Experiment several times a day (even if just for 10 seconds) to notice what is controlling attention.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:25 am

Thanks Vivien! I will do the exercise during the weekend and come back to you.
But what do you expect to become permanent?
Let me quote your words and set to bold exactly what I meant, what I expect.

I’m not implying that seeing should happen 24/7, which won’t, but rather that every time when you look, it should be easy to see it. If it’s not, then it means that more work is needed.
Right now I FELT that only twice, while doing the exercise with eyes closed and calm. Like in meditative mode, but not really meditating or trying to focus on the breath.

So, at this point I sometimes SEE that I'm not my thoughts and that most of them have zero relevance, however the majority of the day my attention is hooked into the thoughts which clearly gives me the sense that I am my thoughts. That I am that running voice.

This is exactly what I will be doing unless you tell me otherwise.
Experiment several times a day (even if just for 10 seconds) to notice what is controlling attention.
Notice what's controlling attention.

Thanks for all your time here, Vivien! I hope that if we succeed, there will still be somebody here to say thanks! I don't imagine myself saying "nobody is thanking you because nobody's here" 😂😂😂

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:53 am

Thanks Vivien! I will do the exercise during the weekend and come back to you.
All right Manolo, keep me updated.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:16 am

Wow Vivien! Just wanted to give you a quick update, but of course, I will continue during the weekend.

I've been doing the exercise today "Notice what's controlling attention", and during a few moments the question seemed non-sense because first, attention clearly moves by itself, and second, who would control it anyway? I felt an impossibility there haha, as if there were no "who" to control that attention!

Vivien, I am not thoughts neither attention. Both thing are just there.

I will continue, because it's not "permanent". It's as if during a moment I can FEEL it and then it vanishes.

Have a great weekend!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:31 am

You did a nice investigation. Please stay with it for the weekend. And keep me updated :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:26 am

Hello, Vivien! I hope you had a great weekend.

No news here. I did the exercise but unfortunately I did not FEEL it. For example, what I wrote last week was completely real and FELT by this body, but "I could not repro" the feeling, at all. What's quoted below are my words and when I read them I know those were true at the moment, but are not true right now.
Wow Vivien! Just wanted to give you a quick update, but of course, I will continue during the weekend.

I've been doing the exercise today "Notice what's controlling attention", and during a few moments the question seemed non-sense because first, attention clearly moves by itself, and second, who would control it anyway? I felt an impossibility there haha, as if there were no "who" to control that attention!

Vivien, I am not thoughts neither attention. Both thing are just there.
This morning when I was doing the exercise, not only that I did not FELT the same thing, but thoughts about pleasing you arised. I was wanting to FEEL something in order to tell you that I was moving forward. But that did not happen.

If you agree, I will continue doing the same thing. I'm not bored or tired of doing it.

Thanks a lot for your time!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:34 am

Hi Manolo,
This morning when I was doing the exercise, not only that I did not FELT the same thing, but thoughts about pleasing you arised. I was wanting to FEEL something in order to tell you that I was moving forward. But that did not happen.\
Whatever happened in the past, it doesn’t matter. I mean, it’s not possible to re-create a previous experience. And we are not aiming for that.

There might have been some emotional or sensory by-products when you saw that there was no control of attention, and now you are trying to get back to those by-products.

But noticing that awareness is not controlled, doesn’t depend on any by-products.
Either there are by-products, or not, but it doesn’t matter.
Since it’s simply about seeing that attention moves on its own.

But now you are after the by-products.
Let go of the by-products. They don’t matter.

Realization isn’t recognized by its by-products.
The realization is self-evident, no by-product is needed.
If you are looking for the by-products, then you are just simply searching for by-products.
But realization is no equal to its possible by-products.
Those could only be by-products, but not IT.
Realization is the simple noticing of what IS, here-and-now, in this very moment.
Moment by moment. That’s all.
It’s very simple.

So when you look here-now, what do notice?
What IS right now?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:00 pm

So when you look here-now, what do notice?
Sounds, breath, thoughts, sight, and attention moving from one thing to the next.

What IS right now?
All of the above, plus something that recognizes it.

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:02 am

Hi Manolo,
Sounds, breath, thoughts, sight, and attention moving from one thing to the next.
And what about sensations?
And taste and smell?


So what is here is experience itself. Colors, shapes, sounds, sensations, tastes, smells.
And thought (both verbal and visual) coming and going.
Is this clear?

But can you find attention itself?
Where is it?
Not the object being attended to, but attention itself.

All of the above, plus something that recognizes it.
Yes, there is ‘something’ knowing experience, knowing what is going on.

But is there a location for this knowing?
Is this maybe in the head?
Is it inside the body?
Does this knowing have any location?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:23 am

And what about sensations?
And taste and smell?
Oh yes, that also. It's just that at that moment it was not my experience.

So what is here is experience itself. Colors, shapes, sounds, sensations, tastes, smells.
And thought (both verbal and visual) coming and going.
Is this clear?
Absolutely clear! =)

But can you find attention itself?
Where is it?
Not the object being attended to, but attention itself.
Nope. Attention moves freely and it seems to be intimately connected to the object that is attending to, but I found no way to literally find it. It looked like an impossiblity.


Yes, there is ‘something’ knowing experience, knowing what is going on.
But is there a location for this knowing?
Is this maybe in the head?
Is it inside the body?
Does this knowing have any location?
Absolutely not to all of those. Now here comes the tricky part again for me. While doing the exercise and not being based in the process of thinking, the answer above is accurate, correct, felt. Now that I'm writing it, an idea (thought) arises: knowning has no location but it is just a process of the brain. I know that while trying to find attention, I could not, but when writing a response here, I have the urge to say that a thought arises that contradicts the experience: "this is just a brain process, Manolo".


Thanks Vivien!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:48 am

Hi Manolo,
Now that I'm writing it, an idea (thought) arises: knowning has no location but it is just a process of the brain. I know that while trying to find attention, I could not, but when writing a response here, I have the urge to say that a thought arises that contradicts the experience: "this is just a brain process, Manolo".
OK, and then what? Are you trying to rely on the popular non-dual notion of awareness or consciousness being independent or prior to anything else?

This knowing might or might not be the product of the brain. This can never be known, and there is no need to know it. Either way, it doesn’t matter.

We are not trying to isolate a self-existing consciousness or awareness either. That would be just another story.
All that we know that there is knowing or aware-ing.
And that’s enough.

All speculation about its origin just a thought story, which happens here now, and is also known.
Nothing separate.

Check it for yourself, now.

Is there a dividing line between a thought and the knowing of it?

Is there a thought + awareness or the knowing of it? Are there two things?

Or these are just two different ways of describing the SAME and ONE phenomenon?

Isn’t the presence of a thought ALREADY the knowing of it?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:22 am

Is there a dividing line between a thought and the knowing of it?
Is there a thought + awareness or the knowing of it? Are there two things?
Clearly it's the same thing! In fact, there's no dividing line in any of the senses and knowing. Hearing happens and knowing of that hearing is the hearing itself. It is just that a moment after that, a thought might arise saying "I heard", but that's pure BS!

It's funny that the same thing happen with a thought: there's a thought and then another one saying "I am thinking", but nobody hears or thinks.

Or these are just two different ways of describing the SAME and ONE phenomenon?
It is on thing. It seems two when the voice in my head says "I thought a thought". And funny enough, that's another phenomenon like the one it's describing.

Isn’t the presence of a thought ALREADY the knowing of it?
Oh yes. You are completely right!

In fact, Vivien, while I was doing the investigation today, a lot of random thoughts arised and for some reason I did not care at all. I simply continued the investigation. It was funny that during a moment the question arised "How in this freaking world do 'I' achieve what needs to be achieved in life?" I mean, when I investigate thoughts they look so random!!! How in the planet am I capable of even doing my work? =) Apparently I can, but it surprises me that any task can be done, at all, when there's no director and the events seem so random.

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:46 am

Hi Manolo,
Clearly it's the same thing! In fact, there's no dividing line in any of the senses and knowing. Hearing happens and knowing of that hearing is the hearing itself. It is just that a moment after that, a thought might arise saying "I heard", but that's pure BS!

It's funny that the same thing happen with a thought: there's a thought and then another one saying "I am thinking", but nobody hears or thinks.
Nice observations.

What is the difference between doing and happening?

Is the separate self doing anything in life?
Or is the separate self also given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?

What do you do right now for this to be?

Are you doing reading or reading is happening?
Are you doing sitting or sitting is happening?
Are you doing seeing or seeing is happening?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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