Eyes wide open

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:58 pm

Hello Vivian,
Is there a looker, a person, Janet, who is looking, or looking is just happening?
Looking just happens, thou if I am honest there are moments, if resting in looking or (awareness)for a period of time, that a subtle attachment settles in, that feels as thou it may be 'me' its really quite subtle... but is there
So do you find any sign of Janet, anything Janet-like, which has a control over what thought comes next?
No
Can you know in advance what is going to be your next thought before the thought itself is present?
No, even when there seems to be a lack of observing, as in a very busy day, ( work has been difficult and intense this week) I reflect or notice in moments that I couldn't have known any of the responses of the day or if its noticed very quickly, its noticed that there was no pre-planned thoughts, but rather a response to what ever is appearing in the moment.

Hmm.. maybe there is less need to worry about tomorrow?!

thank you,
Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:07 am

Hi Janet,
Looking just happens, thou if I am honest there are moments, if resting in looking or (awareness)for a period of time,
And what or who is it exactly that is resting in looking or in awareness?
Is there someone or something who / what moves back and forth between a states of looking and not-looking?
No, even when there seems to be a lack of observing, as in a very busy day, ( work has been difficult and intense this week) I reflect or notice in moments that I couldn't have known any of the responses of the day or if its noticed very quickly, its noticed that there was no pre-planned thoughts, but rather a response to what ever is appearing in the moment.
OK. The thing is that when you reflect back in retrospect what happened in a day, then that reflection is intellectual, meaning it’s happening in thinking.

But seeing that I am not the thinker is not a reflection in retrospect. Seeing can only happen here-now, in the moment when thoughts appear.

So please look at this a bit more.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:12 am

Yes, I see what you mean, retrospect is not this clarity..


This seeing that I am not the thinker...

I will spend more time

thank you
Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:24 am

All right, have a nice day :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:36 pm

And what or who is it exactly that is resting in looking or in awareness?
I honestly can't find a who, nothing can be pointed too really, neither a who, or a what. no object.
Is there someone or something who / what moves back and forth between a states of looking and not-looking?
No, definitely upon being with this, resting, and then trying to be in and out of awareness it is only the process of thinking, so in essence, is awareness never not present?, there is isn't really a coming or going, but a not thinking/thinking process that presents a different flavor of being. there is being awareness and any notion of being outside or not in, is a thought, is thinking.

Janet :/

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:29 am

Hi Janet,
No, definitely upon being with this, resting, and then trying to be in and out of awareness it is only the process of thinking, so in essence, is awareness never not present?, there is isn't really a coming or going, but a not thinking/thinking process that presents a different flavor of being. there is being awareness and any notion of being outside or not in, is a thought, is thinking.
So knowing or aware-ing is always on. But let’s check this out.

Can there be an experience without knowing?

When there is experience, it’s always known, isn’t it?
Can knowing ever not be present?

How would you know what is here now, if there were no knowing or awareness of it?


So the question is not whether there is knowing or awareness, but rather if there is someone or something moving from one state to another, in and out of knowing.

Is there an entity who can leave the knowing of this present moment, and get outside of knowing into not-knowing?
Or this seeming entity itself is already ‘inside’ knowing, since it’s known?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:24 am

Thank You,

check -in, in a few days

Janet

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:12 pm

Hello Vivian,
Can there be an experience without knowing?
No
When there is experience, it’s always known, isn’t it?
Can knowing ever not be present?
Yes, when there is experience, it appears to always be known, This is tricky, as fundamentally I guess the question arises, How can something be not known if it can't be known? so who is this knower? Hence the next question..
How would you know what is here now, if there were no knowing or awareness of it?
So the question is not whether there is knowing or awareness, but rather if there is someone or something moving from one state to another, in and out of knowing.
No, it seems that there isn't really a knower who is in or outside some kind of knowing. However if I am to be honest, there appears to be a recognition Now of thinking, that recognizes a past sense of drowsiness or lack of alertness. A sharpness and at times a dullness, but is this just all that is appearing now? as dullness, sharpness, memory?
Is there an entity who can leave the knowing of this present moment, and get outside of knowing into not-knowing?
Or this seeming entity itself is already ‘inside’ knowing, since it’s known?
No, there is no inside or outside, knowing isn't really an entity, person, though at moments when just looking it feels as though 'I' can be inside of all that is being seen, with no way to get in front of this experience or outside of the experience.
Hearing and touch senses are generally not experienced in this way when closely experienced and questioned, rather when slowed down they appear( for lack of terms) to be open ended, undefinable, more empty???

I think then my question is, who is at times seemingly inside this seeing?? Who can't get in front of this seeing or move to get on the outside of this that is being seen? Can I find the seer?, No, it can't be found really, this is a frustrating spot, somehow the answer feels obvious yet it doesn't seem to 'drop' to the core so to speak, This spins itself into more identification I can feel this as i type !...

What do you see..there is this difficulty to recognize, can't see the forest for the trees...??

Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:20 am

Hi Janet,
What do you see..there is this difficulty to recognize, can't see the forest for the trees...??
Yes, sort of :)

Just check, are you here now?
Not as Janet, not as the body, not as a person, but you are here, don’t you?

Can you say that I don’t exist? You exist, don’t you?


Just notice that you are always here. You can never not be here.

But is there anything observable that is you?

Are you the body, or body is something that is known?
Is the body the knower of this experience, or the body is known AS an experience?

What about of thoughts of Janet? Is the thought of Janet the knower of this experience?

Do you exist as Janet? As an autonomous separate entity?

Without identifying as Janet or me, something else is going on, something that is here. Does this sound true?

You are here… but is there anything you can identify with it and say “this is what I am”?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:17 pm

Thank you Vivian,

all though the questions feel very apparent, I would like to have a few days with them

connect soon,
Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:38 pm

All right, I"m looking forward to hearing from you :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
Posts: 53
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:56 pm

Hello Vivian,

I have taken each question is sequence, looking no further than the question at hand.
Just check, are you here now?
Yes, In this moment there is presence, aliveness, It feels there appears to be no here, but rather just now.
Not as Janet, not as the body, not as a person, but you are here, don’t you?
Yes, there is only presence, not even "you" but rather presence, aliveness.
Can you say that I don’t exist? You exist, don’t you?
Yes, there is existence, However, when the statement "I exist" is said or internally spoken, there appears a different flavor, that being, a grounding, anchoring. The state of existing, the experience alone, does not, the 'I'ing, does not change the fact that there is just existence, there is awakeness, this 'I'ing feels like an addition. The 'I'ing feels less spacious, grounds it, pulls it back so to speak...
Just notice that you are always here. You can never not be here.
But is there anything observable that is you?
No, There is this sense of body, but this is body.....Is it that there are these familiar experiences of the body, that this body, that has a tendency to have very familiar patterns, that are misidentified as a 'Me'? How this body rests, feels, tolerances, and ways of redundantly operating, patterns.
Are you the body, or body is something that is known?
Something known, the bodies has tendencies, but that is all, all that appears through the body.
Is the body the knower of this experience, or the body is known AS an experience?
Known as experience.
What about of thoughts of Janet? Is the thought of Janet the knower of this experience?
No thoughts of Janet is not the knower of experience. Actually thought seems as though it knows nothing, thought is not the known.
Do you exist as Janet? As an autonomous separate entity?
*** NOT SURE WHAT HAPPENED..How could this question feel different or allude to anything other than what has been previously seen?. I am not sure how or why this stopped me, I am surprised when the name 'Janet' is internally spoken that I get tripped up in such a way as to get tangled. I have been trying to spend some time looking closer at how throughout my day there are so many subtle ways in which There is an acting out or familiar sense of being in this body that is being identified with as "Janet" Sometimes it is seen and is sensed as a personality type, with a label, I am just so strangely, stopped at this noticing and wanting to look more closely at how, this state of being in the world, is being assumed as a separate agent when defined as "Janet" I have never really felt as though I have given much to a name, but there is a noticing, an attachment, to behavior or habitual patterns of the body that are "Janet like". As I type this, I am wondering and remembering that my life's issues with strong self criticism and self consciousness and trying to fix this person called 'Janet' has embodied strong identification with even the subtle and even rather benign ways of presenting.

Identification as a person is so imbued in so many ways..and a question that points in a similar direction as the others can reveal places where identification is being stored.
Without identifying as Janet or me, something else is going on, something that is here. Does this sound true
Well, something is definitely going on.
You are here… but is there anything you can identify with it and say “this is what I am”?
Perhaps I need to examine this label, and more of the ways it appears to be noticed, even like driving a car to work, how I like to dress, or walk down a particular path when going outside, hold and cuddle my cat a particular way, this personality or person. ? :0

Thank you, for all of this..

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:45 am

Hi Janet,
Yes, there is existence, However, when the statement "I exist" is said or internally spoken, there appears a different flavor, that being, a grounding, anchoring. The state of existing, the experience alone, does not, the 'I'ing, does not change the fact that there is just existence, there is awakeness, this 'I'ing feels like an addition. The 'I'ing feels less spacious, grounds it, pulls it back so to speak...
Yes. Because the word I is being used as a label on the body, and this imaginary person, called Janet.
No, There is this sense of body, but this is body.....Is it that there are these familiar experiences of the body, that this body, that has a tendency to have very familiar patterns, that are misidentified as a 'Me'?
Is this a question or a statement? :)

I mean, can you see that the body is just a body with its habitual patterns and behaviours, but the body in itself is not aware?

Can you see that not just the body is being mislabelled as ‘me’, but also the habitual tendencies are also mislabelled as ‘me’, and also as any behaviours?

Is there any pattern or tendency of the body that is aware?
Is there any behaviour that is aware?

If not, how could they be a ‘me’, a long-lasting, inherent, autonomous entity with free will?

*** NOT SURE WHAT HAPPENED..How could this question feel different or allude to anything other than what has been previously seen?. I am not sure how or why this stopped me, I am surprised when the name 'Janet' is internally spoken that I get tripped up in such a way as to get tangled.
Try to find the experience of Janet.
Which sensation FEELS Janet-like

Where is the location of this Janet-like feeling?
As I type this, I am wondering and remembering that my life's issues with strong self criticism and self consciousness and trying to fix this person called 'Janet' has embodied strong identification with even the subtle and even rather benign ways of presenting.
But where is this person, called ‘Janet’?

Is the body the Janet-person itself?
Or the body is just a body, which is not an aware person, but just a body?

Where is Janet, the person? Where?

Is the thought story of Janet, is an actual person?
If not the thought, and not the body, then where is Janet?

Can you find an actual Janet, other than a concept?

Maybe she is a sensation?
Or an image?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:44 pm

Thank You,

deeper digging..

will be in touch..

Janet

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:55 pm

Hello Vivian,

I mean, can you see that the body is just a body with its habitual patterns and behaviours, but the body in itself is not aware?
Yes
Can you see that not just the body is being mislabelled as ‘me’, but also the habitual tendencies are also mislabelled as ‘me’, and also as any behaviours?
Yes
Is there any pattern or tendency of the body that is aware?
Is there any behaviour that is aware?
No
If not, how could they be a ‘me’, a long-lasting, inherent, autonomous entity with free will?
'They' are not a 'Me'


Which sensation FEELS Janet-like
When sensations are deeply noticed, quite honestly there is never a me, just awareness of sensation
Where is the location of this Janet-like feeling?
In moments of lax attention she is mistakenly found in various places, but upon the search for 'Janet' she is not to be found.


But where is this person called 'Janet?'
She is a label placed upon an experience, as I type the label 'person' feels doubtful.....
Is the body the Janet-person itself?
No it's just a body
Or the body is just a body, which is not an aware person, but just a body?
Yes
Where is Janet, the person? Where?
It is an idea.
Is the thought story of Janet, is an actual person?
No
If not the thought, and not the body, then where is Janet?
No matter where I look 'Janet cannot be found
Can you find an actual Janet, other than a concept?
'Janet' is a label
Maybe she is a sensation?
Yes, sometimes the feeling/sensing of 'This', body has a familiar consistent aspect, that is identified as 'Janet'
Or an image?
Yes, this redundant view of a familiar image can be mistaken as a 'Janet'

What is the old saying..... Familiarity breeds contempt, only I can see that, when a particular thing,( Images thoughts, feelings) are experienced with a senses of consistency it can solidify into a something, in this case, 'Janet'. It is only upon close examination that just because there is a sense of familiarity it doesn't mean there is anything other than the experience itself of familiarity.


Janet


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