Goodbye me!

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:11 am

Hey Vivien!

But is a thought an actual mind, or a thought is just a thought? Are you sure that an actual, real mind can ever be observed?

Just a thought, clearly. And I am not sure at all that a real mind can be observed. On the contrary, it seems that there's no such a thing but I am not convinced =)

Is there mind outside of words that speak of one? Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from a ‘mind’?

Clearly not, but what I call mind is an effect, a process of moving thoughts. My experience is that something is "running one thought after the other". That's what I'm calling mind.

So this imagined voice (which is nothing else than a verbal thought) might talk ABOUT a mind, but can this mind actually be found in reality?
Correct. But can we call "mind" then a process of thoughts arising and vanishing where sometimes it seems that there's a bit of control over them? For example, to do this inquiry there has to be a will from myself to do it. This generate thoughts and a feeling of control of the following thoughts, which gives validity to my person.

If Manolo is reading your instructions and executing them, can we agree that there's a will of Manolo to go through this process and experience whatever comes? In order for this to happen, Manolo has to sit down and start asking this questions. Well, that chain of thoughts that are influenced by the will of Manolo is part of what Manolo calls mind. Thougths moving with an influence toward Manolos will.

Thanks Vivien!!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:56 am

Hi Manolo,
But can we call "mind" then a process of thoughts arising and vanishing where sometimes it seems that there's a bit of control over them?
The thing is that you are trying to solve this intellectually. But unfortunately, thinking won’t happen.
We are not trying to give a name or define the SEEMING process of thoughts appearing. No.
We are investigating if our beliefs can stand up to the scrutiny of experience.

So you have a belief that there is such thing in reality as a mind.
Now I’m asking you to check if there is an actual, real mind in reality, in experience, and it is not just a man-made concept.
For example, to do this inquiry there has to be a will from myself to do i
t.
This is how it SEEMS. But what if this is not not how it seems to be?
This generate thoughts and a feeling of control of the following thoughts, which gives validity to my person.
This is what you think, thus what you believe. But now we are investigating our beliefs. To check if they are actually in line with experience.

Have noticed the text in my signature? - The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

What we do is to question our most obvious assumptions to check out if they can stand up to scrutiny. Maybe they just collapse under the microscope :)
If Manolo is reading your instructions and executing them, can we agree that there's a will of Manolo to go through this process and experience whatever comes?
Let’s see what happens here.

You make an assumption that Manolo is the one reading the instructions. You take this assumption as a fact. But what if your assumption (what seems to be obvious) is not how it is?

In this inquiry we are getting outside of your comfort zone of thinking and analysing.

We are only ever investigating what is here now, in the immediacy of experience, BEFORE any thoughts and interpretation. To see what is left (what remains) if we stop thinking about it.
In order for this to happen, Manolo has to sit down and start asking this questions. Well, that chain of thoughts that are influenced by the will of Manolo is part of what Manolo calls mind. Thougths moving with an influence toward Manolos will.
This is the ‘obvious’ what we are checking if it’s true. So we are not going along this idea and think and speculate how it might be. No. We question your original idea itself.

We are questioning the things we’ve taken for granted and treated as obvious.
But for this we need an open and empty ‘mind’ (figuratively speaking).

If we are at the position of “I already know” then there is no place and openness to discover something new. Since we already know. If I want to see, then I have to let go off everything I know, to get into the realm of not-knowing, if I want to discover something new.
Just a thought, clearly. And I am not sure at all that a real mind can be observed. On the contrary, it seems that there's no such a thing but I am not convinced =)
Than you have to look more.

If a mind cannot be felt, seen, smelled, tasted, touched, heard, then how do you know that it exists?

Is there anything to experience than the five senses (color, sound, sensation, taste, smell)?

Clearly not, but what I call mind is an effect, a process of moving thoughts. My experience is that something is "running one thought after the other". That's what I'm calling mind.
But this is just an idea. And idea is never a reality.

We are looking for an actual thing where thoughts are coming from.

There is one thought after another thought. But why giving the appearance of thoughts the name of a mind? Why not call thoughts for what they are, thoughts only?

There is no point calling the thoughts to something else than what they are.

Do you see that your reservation is still about the notion that might be a mind somewhere hiding, where thoughts are stored, produced and originate from?

My experience is that something is "running one thought after the other".
So are saying that a mind is not a supposed placeholder, origin and producer of thoughts, but the thing that is running after thoughts?

Is there actually something running after thoughts?

Look at this something that is running after thoughts. What do you see when you directly observe this thing?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:49 pm

My god, Vivien. You are blowing my mind =)

Yes, I've noticed your signature of course. And I was thinking about it yesterday.

Replying just so you know I'm here and following. But I will continue the inquiry once again in a couple of hours and tomorrow morning. Then reply back.

Thanks Vivien. I'm not sure if I'm enjoying or suffering the process 😂😂😂but I'm sure I want to continue!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:07 am

All right, have a nice weekend :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:51 am

If a mind cannot be felt, seen, smelled, tasted, touched, heard, then how do you know that it exists?

I do not. And after trying to find it, I found none. =)


Is there anything to experience than the five senses (color, sound, sensation, taste, smell)?

If sensation includes feelings and states produced by thoughts, then, there's nothing else to experience.


Do you see that your reservation is still about the notion that might be a mind somewhere hiding, where thoughts are stored, produced and originate from?

Yes, that was in my previous post, but I "changed my mind" now. There are no reservations. There's no mind, Vivien.


Is there actually something running after thoughts?

More thoughts, likely about the previous thoughts =)


Look at this something that is running after thoughts. What do you see when you directly observe this thing?

It's challenging, Vivien. Like a loop, and then I get lost in thought again.


Thanks and you too have a nice weekend!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:17 am

Hi Manolo,
If sensation includes feelings and states produced by thoughts, then, there's nothing else to experience.
Yes. Emotions and feelings are sensation with different thought labels.
It's challenging, Vivien. Like a loop, and then I get lost in thought again.
OK. We are going to dive deep into investigating thoughts.

It is very important that you never think or ponder on the questions. Rather you actually have to look what you can see in your immediate experience before any thought interpretation.

Please always be thorough with looking. Look repeatedly several times before replying.

What do you do exactly in order to think?

How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?


Please be careful not to think about these questions, but actually sit and NOTICE how you think, how you do it exactly. So don’t go to theories, speculations, philosophy, or any learned information. Just notice what is happening here now in the immediacy of your own experience.

Please spend a whole day investigating these questions. Look again and again and again. Even if the answer seems to be clear, look more.

This investigation is about persistent repetition. Looking at the same thing again and again in experience, what brings about the realization.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:47 am

Vivien, before replying to the questions, let me thank you again for what you are doing. It is moving something here.

What do you do exactly in order to think?

This morning I closed my eyes and tried to find what I was doing in order to think. I closed my eyes and I started trying to find out, without using previus knowledge or conceptual ideas. Well, a bird was singing and I got lost in its sounds for a moment, but when I "came back" I realized that I didn't do anything to hear, to think, to forget, or to come back. In fact, it felt to me as if my power to create a thought was similar to my power to make the bird sing: zero. To be clear, at that moment and in several other moments during the day, especially with sounds, it felt to me as if my thoughts were things similar to the sounds that were coming from the outside. And the "reason" is simple: I have not been choosing anything at all! Not the sounds from the city or the thoughts, but both were there all day!

The day was strange to me, from an experience level. It came to my mind several time, for the first time that I do not have real free will hahaha =) But at the same time, I can't believe!!!!!

How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?

Maybe you are the one who is creating thoughts? :P I do not!. But Vivien, it still feels as if I am. Why? Why if these thoughts are just there appearing by themselves, why do I feel that I have control? Today I'm excited.


Vivien, I have no words (although a lot of thoughts!) to thank you what you do here.

Have a great Sunday!
Manolo

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:58 am

Hi Manolo,
Vivien, before replying to the questions, let me thank you again for what you are doing. It is moving something here.
You are most welcome :)

You did a nice investigation.
The day was strange to me, from an experience level. It came to my mind several time, for the first time that I do not have real free will hahaha =) But at the same time, I can't believe!!!!!
But does knowing that everything happens on its own needs belief?
Does it matter what you believe? :) I mean does your belief change anything about how things actually are?


Just notice how everything is just happening on its own. But thoughts come up saying “I can't believe it!”.
Now, does this thought changes anything?
Or this thought itself happen on their own, without any doing on your part?
But Vivien, it still feels as if I am. Why? Why if these thoughts are just there appearing by themselves, why do I feel that I have control? Today I'm excited.
OK, so it’s still feels like as if you were the thinker of thoughts.

Please focus on this FEELING that “I am thinking”, “I am choosing what to think”.
And describe this feeling as precisely as you can, without adding anything extra. Just the pure feeling of “I am thinking”, “I am making thoughts happen”.


Stay with this feeling of “I am thinking” as often as you can throughout the day.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:31 am

Hey Vivien! It was an intense weekend for me doing these exercises =) I am enjoying this.

But does knowing that everything happens on its own needs belief? Does it matter what you believe? :) I mean does your belief change anything about how things actually are?

A clear not to any of those. It is just that it feels as if part of myself can influence "what's next".


Now, does this thought changes anything? Or this thought itself happen on their own, without any doing on your part?

Another nope =) This thought that not change anything but apparently changes the way I see things. In a way, on those little moments when I feel this "aha, true that I'm NOT producing anything" I feel more relaxed that on every other moment. So these thoughts don't change anything except how I feel. And how I feel can change what this body does. Isn't it that way?


Please focus on this FEELING that “I am thinking”, “I am choosing what to think”.
And describe this feeling as precisely as you can, without adding anything extra. Just the pure feeling of “I am thinking”, “I am making thoughts happen”.

This was not easy, Vivien. It blew my mind all the weekend. I did the excercise almost every time I was walking and it became obvios at two precise moments that "I choose what to think in the same way that I choose what to hear, see or smell". It's clearly false, thinking is no different that the sounds of the cars that I am hearing right now. Thinking and the sounds are there. The main difference is that fousing, paying attention to thoughs seems to change my internal state (for goor or bad) more frequently than sounds.

I feel that talking about "external sounds" and "internal thoughts" seem to be a contradiction. Sounds and thoughts exist regardless of what is producing them, so the difference "external" as if I had no control with "internal" as if I do, is clearly wrong. There are events are triggered out of this skull and events from inside this skull. I do not control any of those.

A moment ago I was doing the exercise while sitting (replacing my daily meditation) and it became obvious that I am not my thoughts. If thoughts are automatic, then they have nothing to wth "me". They influence my mood but they are not me.

Another interesting thing that happened while thinking “I am choosing what to think” is the feeling that I can't see the future, so how could I know or choose what to think? Of course and I can't. It still feels that way now that I'm not doing the exercise and "not thinking about it", but at that moment, when doing the exercise is was clear.

Last thing that happened while I was not doing any exercise, just hearing music in the background and my body was slighly moving, dancing, I thoght "Damn!!! The music is 'predictable' in a way, my body is dancing and I didn't even realize. Everything was happening without me doing anything BUT BUT BUT I was enjoying like crazy!". So in a way, having the feeling of no control over anything relaxes me. I have zero problems knowing that I'm not controling my life. But I do have a problem believing it!

Thanks, Vivien!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:49 am

Hi Manolo,

You did a nice investigation :)
But I do have a problem believing it!
Are you the one who has problems believing it? Or “I do have a problem believing it!” arrives as a thought on its own, without you actually or intentionally thinking it?

Is the thought “I have a problem believing it” is your doing? Are you making this thought to happen?

Is there anything that you make to happen? Anything at all?

Do you make hearing happen?
Do you make seeing happen?
Do you make tasting happen?
Do you make smelling happen?
Do you make feeling happen?
Do you make thoughts happen?

Or all of these happen on their own?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:26 am

Good afternoon, Vivien! This time it took me a bit more to reply, because I feel as if I went back to the previous -intellectual- square.

Are you the one who has problems believing it? Or “I do have a problem believing it!” arrives as a thought on its own, without you actually or intentionally thinking it? Is the thought “I have a problem believing it” is your doing? Are you making this thought to happen?

It is clear that all those thoughts are simply arriving. There's a feeling of creation, of influence of them most of the times but when I stay with thoughts like "I choose what I think" it immediately becomes clear that it is not true. Thoughts arise, I focus on them, they affect me.


Is there anything that you make to happen? Anything at all?

Nope. Everything is happening. But what about my attention? Isn't that something where I do have a degree of influence? In fact, can't we say that "I am the attention of this body"? Again, I know even attention is lost, but it FEELS as if there's a degree of control. For example as soon as you proposed me to do these exercises I got started. It feels as if something here has the capacity of influencing the attention of this body.


Do you make hearing happen?
Do you make seeing happen?
Do you make feeling happen?
Do you make tasting happen?
Do you make smelling happen?

An absolute NO to all of those.

Do you make thoughts happen?

A special no to this one, but still a no. I do not.


Or all of these happen on their own?
Everything is happening, but when I am saying this right now, it's more intellectual as I said at the beginning. On Sat and Sun there were little moments of FEELING the above. Yesterday the concept still remained but not the feeling. Do you understand what I mean?

Thanks, Vivien!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:48 am

Hi Manolo,
Nope. Everything is happening. But what about my attention? Isn't that something where I do have a degree of influence? In fact, can't we say that "I am the attention of this body"?
First, how do you know that attention belongs to the body?

Which part of the body owns attention? The eyes? The mouth? Your face? The back of the head? Or maybe the top of the head?

Does attention have any location?

And who is say that “I am the attention of the body”?
Does attention saying that?
Is the body saying that?

If you say that the body, then which part of the body?
Does the cheek says that I am the attention of the body?
Does the top of the head is saying that?
Or maybe the sensations of the throat is thinking and saying that?

What is thinking the thought of “I am the attention of the body”?
The eyes thinking it? The back of the head? Or the throat thinks that? Or the chest? Or your little finger on your left hand? Or the thumb of your right hand? Or maybe the lower back? What about your feet?


I’m not going to give you more questions for now. Next, we are going to look into if attention is actually controlled. But for now, just investigate the above questions. But please make sure that you don’t go to thinking and speculation. Really look what is going on underneath of thinking.

Vivien
Check every single part of the body very thoroughly form head to toe.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:32 am

Thanks Vivien!
First, how do you know that attention belongs to the body?
It felt that way because felt touch sensing was possible only to this body. So essentially, the attention was capable to move freely inside this body and that's why I arrived to that conclusion: "the only place where the attention can be is inside this body". But today it does not matter because all the sensing are happening anyway. In other words, "felt-touch" was experienced as a short-distance, internal sense while the others not. But that's incorrect: seeing happens exactly the same way and so all the other senses.
So, I can't say the attention belongs to this body. I experience it that way but if I don't go on concepts/intellectual explanations (another brain process?) then, I don't know where the attention is.

Which part of the body owns attention? The eyes? The mouth? Your face? The back of the head? Or maybe the top of the head? Does attention have any location?
None. It's free just as everything else. It just moves throught all the senses, including thought.

And who is say that “I am the attention of the body”?
Haha =) An imagined voice.

Does attention saying that? Is the body saying that? If you say that the body, then which part of the body?
Nope and nope. It is the imagined voice.

Next, we are going to look into if attention is actually controlled. But for now, just investigate the above questions. But please make sure that you don’t go to thinking and speculation. Really look what is going on underneath of thinking.
While trying to reply to the questions above, it became obvious that attention is not controlled "by me". It happens and it moves freely as well.

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:57 am

Hi Manolo,
V: First, how do you know that attention belongs to the body?
M: It felt that way because felt touch sensing was possible only to this body. So essentially, the attention was capable to move freely inside this body and that's why I arrived to that conclusion: "the only place where the attention can be is inside this body".
Are you saying that attention can never be on a sound or the image of a table? The table or the sound of the traffic is supposed to be outside of the body.
Are you suggesting that attention can never be on anything outside of the body, only inside?
In other words, "felt-touch" was experienced as a short-distance, internal sense while the others not.
What do you mean by this?
Short distance between what?
But that's incorrect: seeing happens exactly the same way and so all the other senses.
Same way as what?

Sorry, I find your first paragraph quite confusing, and I cannot grasp what you are talking about :)
So, I can't say the attention belongs to this body. I experience it that way but if I don't go on concepts/intellectual explanations (another brain process?) then, I don't know where the attention is.
Are you saying that you believed or believe that when you touch the table, attention is located in the hands where touching happen? Or something else?
While trying to reply to the questions above, it became obvious that attention is not controlled "by me". It happens and it moves freely as well.
All right, that’s good. But let’s dig a bit deeper here, just to make sure that everything is super clear.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?


Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?

Is thought in control of attention?
What is in control of attention?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:11 pm

Forget about my excess of words in the previous post, sorry, I was being confusing. I just wanted to say "I can't know if the attention belongs to the body or not". Ask me anything just based on that phrase and ignore my previous post which has too many words.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?
It incredibly moves by itself, and there's no focus-er. Apparently there's one, by clearly there's none. And I say "apparently" because there's a feeling as if the combination of attention plus thought is "me", but I'm not claiming that's the way it is, it is just how it feels: thoughts + attention is Manolo

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Wow! This is cool! Attention moves by itself depending on whatever attracts itself. When it is a sound, it is clear, and when it is a thought, I become "Manolo". So in a sense, I can say that attention moves between all the senses (sight, sound, etc) plus thought and there's nothing particular in though, except that I believe (or believed!!) I was thought!

Is thought in control of attention?
As much as the bird that is singing outside. Does the sound of the bird controls the attention? Nope. Sometimes the attention is in that sound, and sometimes in the thought. But neither controls the attention. The bird might start singing louder and the attention will probably move there for a bit, but then it will switch back to thought. Thoughts seem to have more attraction power than sounds, but it's clearly that they are not that different. Hearing has more attraction than smell, but still, hearing, smelling and thoughts are the same thing. Daaaamn! Hahahah =)


What is in control of attention?
Nothing! Attention moves! Maybe if you kick my ass, you will be in control of this attention for a few minutes =)

Thanks Vivien!


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