Where else is it hiding?

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:22 pm

Hi Vivien,
So is it possible that you’ve identified with words, sounds and emotions, believing them to be you, in most of your life?
Yes, I can see that. But that does not kill the illusion.

Today I was investigating more the questions you asked me before. I struggled at times a bit with question "is X me?". I was not sure what does it mean "X to be me". But I believe that was because for most of these questions there is no sense of "me", but like I write before I could find it when saying my full name "I, Peter X".

Today I tried many many times and I found a strong thought, which is that "me" in thinking. I think I was ignoring it before and not acknowledging it. The image of concept / object - "me". Most of other thoughts are like bubbles, they come, stay and pop. This "me"-object thought seem like it would be more solid. I can see the believe in it. I even noticed visual thought of golden ball related to it like it would be more solid than the other thoughts. I can see how behind any ownership thought, behind "I, Peter X" is this thought of "me"-object. It seems rather clear there is nothing else than this which is "me". I already looked many times and I know there are only experiences of senses and thoughts and nothing else what could be "me".
We often say ‘MY body’ – so what is it that owns the body?
There is this "me"-object thought behind it. When I say "this is my body", there is a thought of "me"-object owning this body.
And how do you know that the body is owned?
Well if I inspect it, it has no meaning. It is only a thought. There is nothing in direct experience as "owning". I can't find what it could mean. It is same as saying "this cup is mine". There is this implicit thought that "this cup is owned by "me"-object". But in reality, what would that even mean? I see how "ownership" is only imagined thought. It does not mean it is part of me or that someone else cannot use it or that is somehow linked to me. It is imagined.
What is it that claims ‘MY body’?
It's a thought that there is "me" as an object that owns it.
You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?
Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?
Do thoughts own the clothes?
Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the clothes?
Does word/thought Peter owns the clothes?
Does the label on clothes own the clothes?
Does the label ‘my’ owns the body?
Does the label/word/thought Peter owns the body?
In thinking for all these questions there is this "me"-object to which "owning" is attributed.
Is a thought ABOUT ownership, is an actual ownership?
Is there actual owing going behind those words, or those are just empty words, pointing no actual ownership at all?
I see that the thought is only ABOUT ownership. Imagined. There is no owning and yes those are totally empty words.

Today I investigated this "me"-object thought a lot. Now in the evening as I'm writing this I'm a bit puzzled, that I do not feel I see through it fully. I was frustrated today (there was some resistence to investigate this "me"-object thought), emotional, excited when I acknowledge the "me"-object thought.

I kept looking today repeatedly. I believe that feeling of "me" is weakened most of the time and maybe that's why I was puzzled by "is X me" questions. There is this expectation that it should be clear and default now and maybe it is, but also I'm not 100% sure. I know I should simply ignore this expectation as an hindrance. I maybe expect that the view should be default now, but it is not, I still need to look into details to see thought feeling of "me". At the moment I don't even know what I'm writing :). Thank you for patience with reading my responses and helping me Vivien.

Thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:28 am

Hi Peter,
Yes, I can see that. But that does not kill the illusion.
Why would the illusion need to be killed?
Is there a problem with the illusion?
Does it have to stop appearing, or is it enough to see it for what it is, just an mirage in the desert and not an actual oasis?
This "me"-object thought seem like it would be more solid. I can see the believe in it. I even noticed visual thought of golden ball related to it like it would be more solid than the other thoughts. I can see how behind any ownership thought, behind "I, Peter X" is this thought of "me"-object.
OK. So how does this ‘me-object’ appear? As a thought? Or is there more to it?
And are you an object?

Are you a thought?
Are you the me-thought?
Or you are aware of the me-thought?

It's a thought that there is "me" as an object that owns it.
Is there anything to the ‘me-object’ other than being a thought?
Is it a real tangible object?
Or just a plain thought?
Can a thought own anything?

What can the me-thought do?
Does this me-thought have volition?
Is this me-thought aware? Or you are aware of me-thought?

why I was puzzled by "is X me" questions.
Say out loud your full name.

Are you those words? Or you are aware of those words?
How can you be something that you are aware of?

I maybe expect that the view should be default now, but it is not,
Dear Peter, you have high expectations. This is not some quick process, but a journey of a lifetime, an orientation to see life from a different angle, each day is an opportunity to discover a little more.
Thank you for patience with reading my responses and helping me Vivien.
You are welcome :)

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:18 pm

Hi Vivien,
Why would the illusion need to be killed?
True, it probably doesn't need to be killed. It would be probably difficult to function in society without reference to "me".
Is there a problem with the illusion?
Well once I know about it, there is not :). It feels lighter, easier.
Does it have to stop appearing, or is it enough to see it for what it is, just an mirage in the desert and not an actual oasis?
If I'm able to see it for what it is, then great! Then it's is just fine.
OK. So how does this ‘me-object’ appear? As a thought? Or is there more to it?
It is only a thought. Today I had harder time to bring that feeling up. It feels weakened (if I'm not deceiving myself). Yesterday it felt more solid, but now it's truly like a thought as any other. There is nothing else to it I could find.
And are you an object?
Oh this simple question actually is not straightforward as it seemed. In the relation to all what I ever referenced as "me", "mine", "I" - those are all thoughts. Constructs. They are object in terms of "illusionary constructed object".

What am I then? What is left? It feels empty-handed. Everything is same, there is this room I'm in, there is this body, thinking, sensations. All same. But I cannot find anything to be "me".
Are you a thought?
I'm not a thought.
Are you the me-thought? Or you are aware of the me-thought?
Well it seems there is no me anywhere. So cannot answer the first question. I'm aware of the "me-thought". I have a bit of tendency to avoid writing "I..." and use more passive "There is...".

(OK I guess I need a little bit of this illusion to not sound like a bad old book :)).
Is there anything to the ‘me-object’ other than being a thought?
No, it is only a thought. Which was so far hidden and implied and believed in.
Is it a real tangible object? Or just a plain thought?
No, I cannot touch, move or in any other way interact with "me-object". It's only a thought.

I feel like it would be useful if I bring this knowledge and seeing of me-object again and again, so it's very clearly understood and internalized.
Can a thought own anything?
Nope. It's only an image.
What can the me-thought do?
It's not an entity with ability for action. Also I do not see any action, which could be attributed to "me-thought". There are only other thoughts about "me-thought" doing, owning something or that something is happening to "me-thought". Thoughts like "he insulted me (me-thought)".
Does this me-thought have volition?
No volition. In fact I do not see evidence of anyone/anything else having volition. As we discussed before when I look closer - it's all seems to be just happening. Unfolding. Moment by moment, like a ball rolling. But I need to look close and I only see it in parts. It is not default view nor I can see these parts of illusion more together. I guess over time if I look repeatedly it becomes more clear and connected view.
Is this me-thought aware? Or you are aware of me-thought?
There is awareness of me-thought. There are thoughts about it and about other thoughts.
Say out loud your full name.

Are you those words? Or you are aware of those words?
No, I'm not those words. Comparing to previous days, also the feeling of "me" is harder to find now. I'm aware of those words and sounds. There are thoughts about them.
Dear Peter, you have high expectations. This is not some quick process, but a journey of a lifetime, an orientation to see life from a different angle, each day is an opportunity to discover a little more.
Thank you, I guess I have.

Thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:16 am

Hi Peter,
It is only a thought. Today I had harder time to bring that feeling up. It feels weakened (if I'm not deceiving myself). Yesterday it felt more solid, but now it's truly like a thought as any other. There is nothing else to it I could find.
So are you saying that there isn’t any feeling or sensation in the body or in the head, that is Peter-like, or me-like?
What am I then? What is left? It feels empty-handed. Everything is same, there is this room I'm in, there is this body, thinking, sensations. All same. But I cannot find anything to be "me".
But you are here, aren’t you?
So, without identifying as Peter / me, something else is going on, something that is here. Does this ring true?


So you are not Peter, yet you are.
So it’s not about whether you exist, but rather are you Peter, an autonomous entity with volition?
Well it seems there is no me anywhere. So cannot answer the first question. I'm aware of the "me-thought". I have a bit of tendency to avoid writing "I..." and use more passive "There is...".
Avoiding using the words of I/me/mine doesn’t change much, however, it’s easy to adopt a new belief of “I don’t exist”.
No, I cannot touch, move or in any other way interact with "me-object". It's only a thought.

I feel like it would be useful if I bring this knowledge and seeing of me-object again and again, so it's very clearly understood and internalized.
Yes, please do it.
No volition. In fact I do not see evidence of anyone/anything else having volition. As we discussed before when I look closer - it's all seems to be just happening. Unfolding. Moment by moment, like a ball rolling. But I need to look close and I only see it in parts. It is not default view nor I can see these parts of illusion more together. I guess over time if I look repeatedly it becomes more clear and connected view.
Is there anything (anything at all) that doesn’t happen automatically?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:49 pm

Hi Vivien,
So are you saying that there isn’t any feeling or sensation in the body or in the head, that is Peter-like, or me-like?
Nothing like that I could find. Nothing I would label "me" or "Peter". Only the thought. Although it takes effort to find the me-thought.
But you are here, aren’t you?
Well, the body is still here, sensations of body, behaviour and speech, postures, facial expression are all here. I see how putting them all together in thoughts and labelling "me" creates the object of me-thought.
So, without identifying as Peter / me, something else is going on, something that is here. Does this ring true?
Besides me-object, there are also other objects in thinking. My wife-object, concepts for kids, neighbours, colleagues in work etc. But also my cat. Even things have thought-objects. Those thoughts are discriminating, differentiating one from the other.

When I cut off thinking, then it is possible to see is all more like a one field. Especially in visual sense it's strong. Usually I cannot cut off all thinking, but even when it is diminished then the view of one field is possible to see. I would call it "this". I mean cannot be really described other than it's all and point a finger at this, hence "this". All there is, is just "this". This, here now. All heard, seen, smelled, touched, tasted. It is constantly changing. All time in action. I can engage thinking and differentiate some part and make an object. Call it a cat and have properties attached to it. Like this cat is a loner and fighter. Similarly this body is part of that field too, it is an action which is part of it. The sense of inside and outside kind of merged. In the sight it really all seem like a one field, it's not that strong between senses, although there are no boundaries or gaps like I investigate before.

If there is too much thinking, then attention is on thinking and the unity is not apparent. So it is not like world disappeared, just view is different. That is what I found without identifying as Peter and without creating identities for others.
So you are not Peter, yet you are.
So it’s not about whether you exist, but rather are you Peter, an autonomous entity with volition?
When I put pieces together in thinking. That means, there is no me, just hearing, seeing, touching... thinking and other bodily sensations. I've seen all is happening automatically. There are no boundaries and gaps between experiences. Thoughts appear on their own. Actions happen on their own. The results is I'm not autonomous entity with volition. At times I can see it, but also I do not feel I really "see" it completely clearly as a day. There is a slight bit of thinking and reasoning involved.
I feel like it would be useful if I bring this knowledge and seeing of me-object again and again, so it's very clearly understood and internalized.
Yes, please do it.
I'm trying, but also find it harder to identify "me-thought". I'm trying to come back to all your questions and answer them from experience again and again as I have time during the day. Also when I'm putting together these replies for you, it seems to strengthen the view and make it easier to see.
Is there anything (anything at all) that doesn’t happen automatically?
It really seems all is unfolding on its own as an action in this one united "this" here and now.

Thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:42 am

Hi Peter,
When I put pieces together in thinking. That means, there is no me, just hearing, seeing, touching... thinking and other bodily sensations. I've seen all is happening automatically. There are no boundaries and gaps between experiences. Thoughts appear on their own. Actions happen on their own. The results is I'm not autonomous entity with volition. At times I can see it, but also I do not feel I really "see" it completely clearly as a day. There is a slight bit of thinking and reasoning involved.
You did a nice investigation.
That’s all right. This just need to be seen more.
Although it takes effort to find the me-thought.
It takes effort to find the me-thought? Is this me-thought something different than the word me?
Just think the word ‘me’. It’s here. Is there any effort to find this word?


In language the words of I/me/my are constantly there, in every single sentence. So it should be very easy to find it.
Or you think that the me-thought is something more or something else than the words of I/me/my/mine?
When I cut off thinking, then it is possible to see is all more like a one field. Especially in visual sense it's strong. Usually I cannot cut off all thinking,
You cut off thinking? So you have a power to not think?
Is cutting off thinking is your doing, or is it just happens on its own?
I can engage thinking and differentiate some part and make an object.
So you have a power to engage or not engage with thinking? Is this your doing?
Or engaging or not engaging with thinking also just happen on its own?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:56 pm

Hi Vivien,
It takes effort to find the me-thought? Is this me-thought something different than the word me?
Just think the word ‘me’. It’s here. Is there any effort to find this word?
Right, I realized that the way how I'm finding the me-thought is via something else. For example I try to recall a thought of guilt or I say "Me, Peter X" or I think about memories related to me. Then I try to trace the "me" behind it (the me-thought), because I wanted to make sure I find what it really is. I wanted to avoid I would make up something and confuse it with "me". This clumsy way I was ensuring to find the me behind these other thoughts. As I did not know what I'm going to find and wanted to be true and open about it. I think it was honest approach, but a bit clumsy. Because now after I've discovered there is just that me-thought I've seen it and now I can just go directly to it. True. That way there is no effort.
In language the words of I/me/my are constantly there, in every single sentence. So it should be very easy to find it.
Or you think that the me-thought is something more or something else than the words of I/me/my/mine?
I did not know before what it would be and wanted to stay honest to my self, so I took the indirect approach. But yes, there is nothing to it. It is straightforward.
You cut off thinking? So you have a power to not think?
Is cutting off thinking is your doing, or is it just happens on its own?
Yes, yes, thank you for these great questions. It made me reflect, why I wrote it this way. I think there is still a (default?) way of viewing as there is a "me" in control. I definitely do not see it somehow ordinarily that there is no me in control of thoughts. Your question made me "think" I should somehow be in the position when it is clear as a day and my default view and how I view and speak now. I don't know. Am I not getting it? Am I just confused now? Are you just testing if I can look and see it again and again until it settle down? Does this have any direction and end?
So you have a power to engage or not engage with thinking? Is this your doing?
Or engaging or not engaging with thinking also just happen on its own?
If I look closely - there is a thought to "cut off" thinking or diminish it. With the intention to do it. Then there is thought of what should be anchor to attention (e.g. breath). Then there is a loop of disruption as random thought, another thought about keeping attention on anchor etc etc until longer period is sustained, without disruption of thoughts. I need to look very closely and very carefully several times to validate that yes all these thoughts are happening automatically.

But this is not how I view it normally, I have to reflect on the process, try it, observe it, reflect on it and then put it into these words. I'm confused now. What should "I" do now?

Thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:15 am

Hi Peter,
But this is not how I view it normally, I have to reflect on the process, try it, observe it, reflect on it and then put it into these words. I'm confused now. What should "I" do now?
Yes, it’s about observing it. You still believe that you have some control over thoughts. So you have to test this assumption in reality.

What is it exactly that has a control over thoughts?
What is it exactly that could cut off thinking?
What is doing it? Where is this doer?

Does the thought of I is cutting off thinking?
Does the sensations in the head cutting of thinking?

Find the one who has the power to cut off thinking. Find this doer.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:21 pm

Hi Vivien,
What is it exactly that has a control over thoughts?
What is it exactly that could cut off thinking?
What is doing it? Where is this doer?
Like before today I looked repeatedly on thoughts. I found that thoughts appeared on their own, with intentions. Some thoughts were about cutting off thoughts or with intentions to concentrate. They appeared on their own. Either after re-reading your message or as a memory recalled.

I found that thoughts about other thoughts were linked to a thought of "me". That created an illusion of control or ownership. For example thought about this task appeared as a memory. Then another thought about "me deciding to watch another thoughts" could appear. That was new. It was still the same me-thought behind it.
Does the thought of I is cutting off thinking?
Does the sensations in the head cutting of thinking?
No it's still the same "me-thought". There was again this believe of "me" object deciding what to do with thoughts.
Find the one who has the power to cut off thinking. Find this doer.
Now I know intellectually there is nobody with that power, so there is not much will to try to literally look for who has the power. It's easier to look on thinking process and re-evaluate how is it happening. Looking on how it is unfolding. That way I discovered those meta-thoughts with the believe. Or maybe I should forget all that I know and try look for who is there with power... hm. I will try.

I guess I will just continue this exercise in coming days. Sitting down in meditation (I'm not able to do this outside of meditation, needs to calm down a bit, get a bit of concentration and then it is possible but still hard) and trying to observe thoughts. What is going on. How is this happening. Hopefully that is good approach.

Thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:33 am

Hi Peter,
Now I know intellectually there is nobody with that power, so there is not much will to try to literally look for who has the power. It's easier to look on thinking process and re-evaluate how is it happening. Looking on how it is unfolding. That way I discovered those meta-thoughts with the believe. Or maybe I should forget all that I know and try look for who is there with power... hm. I will try.
Be very careful with intellectual understanding and the conclusion that I don’t have to look, since I know that there is nobody there.

Intellectual understanding has no real value in this investigation. Intellectual understanding is nothing else than just a learned idea about this, but not the FELT EXPERIENCE of it.

Actually, intellectual understanding is a hindrance. Since if I’m at the stance of “I already know”, then I don’t make an effort to actually investigate it in the moment. Just as your conclusion that there is no much will to look.

Intellectual understanding is nothing else than a belief. Which has no value.

It is essential to actually investigate and look in your immediate experience.
Otherwise, this will never become a felt, lived experience. It just stays as a nice philosophical idea. Just another belief.

Is it clear why it’s essential to actually investigate and not just adopt it as a new belief?

So, I’m going to ask you to stay with all the previous questions, and really look with them.
Let me know what happens when you don’t just think and intellectualize, but actually investigate your immediate experience.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:18 pm

Hi Vivien,
Be very careful with intellectual understanding and the conclusion that I don’t have to look, since I know that there is nobody there.
Yes I understand what you mean. I wanted to say that I was not literally asking myself "Who has control?" and looking for who, but I was looking on how is it happening. How does things unfold? Is there someone/something involved controlling? Almost same thing at the end. Just playing with it a bit. It's a small nuance. It's not I do not want to investigate. I hope that made it clear because I think I mislad you by choosing wrong expressions.
Is it clear why it’s essential to actually investigate and not just adopt it as a new belief?
Yes I have no doubts about it. That is my biggest challenge since the beginning like I mentioned before. Mistake a thought for an experience. But I'm trying.

Anyway, I followed your advise and I was literally following questions and it led to some good investigation. I noticed few things. I cannot look at the thought directly, only as a memory what was it a moment ago.

Also I realized when investigating I was putting experiences into boxes. Giving them labels. This is sound. This is thought. But today I realized that thought is only content, nothing else, it has no box, contour, enclosure, it’s like a random materialisation of content from nothing and vanishes to nothing. Calling it thought I imagined it as an object. But it’s only an experience of content. In fact every experience is like that. There is no meta-information there, no other label or name or box, it’s imagined. It’s all just pure experiences. Also they feel absolutely same. They are like just pure information. Thought, sound, touch... same. At the end it made thoughts much less significant. I somehow know this is thought and this is sound, but it feels like another thought, not part of the original experience. Hope I'm not confusing myself.
So, I’m going to ask you to stay with all the previous questions, and really look with them.
Let me know what happens when you don’t just think and intellectualize, but actually investigate your immediate experience.
Yes I came back to questions.
What is it exactly that has a control over thoughts?

There was only thought about “me cutting off thinking”, there was a thought of “me” included. I noticed how absorbing thoughts are. Up to the point where other sensations stop to exist for a moment, when absorbed in thoughts.

Most of the time attention is on thoughts. Thinking only almost feels like another realm. Like a level of reality. There is a feeling that everything is behind a curtain. Even sensations feel less real as the attention is more on thoughts - concepts of those sensations.

There was again “me” thought with some bodily sensation attached to it, it felt as “real” as touching a table, solid. I inspected this thought and there was a word "me", there was a thought of meaning of it, there was bodily sensation and feeling of solidness. Then attention came back to sensations. Attention moved to touch, sound, sight, taste... those felt much more real.

when "I" tried to go back to me-thought, it has changed. Bodily sensation was gone. It was merely a word, same as "table". After that exercise I could not find that solid "me-thought". Also attention was on sensations most of the time, much less thinking.
Find the one who has the power to cut off thinking. Find this doer.
I could not find a doer, but I also could not find the solid "me" like before.

Anyhow I felt like switching between two views. Absorbed in thoughts, with strong believe in their significance with "me-thought" being solid and real. Or attention mostly on sensations, what is here now, much less thinking and me-though being only a thought. Usually after doing investigation the "me-thought" weakens and I do not see it as solid or real.

I will continue with this investigation tomorrow.

Also one thought came repeatedly. If this is all happening automatically, what are we doing here? There is not me, no you, no decision made, what is going on then? ... It is not bothering or coming too often, just feels puzzling.

Thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:24 am

Hi Peter,
I cannot look at the thought directly, only as a memory what was it a moment ago.
OK. Then you have to look more. Looking / seeing / noticing happens in the moment when a thought is there. And never in retrospect, never as a memory.

How does this memory of a previous thought appear? As the content of another thought. But this is just a memory in retrospect, since you are not seeing the thought when it’s present in the moment. But having a memory-thought about the previous thought is just an intellectual understanding of the topic, and not the experiential seeing of it.

Seeing that the I am not the thinker of thoughts doesn’t come in a form of a memory-thought.
It’s a seeing in the very moment when a thought is present.
This is a big difference.

This is the difference between ‘waking’ and ‘dreaming’.
Also I realized when investigating I was putting experiences into boxes. Giving them labels. This is sound. This is thought. But today I realized that thought is only content, nothing else, it has no box, contour, enclosure, it’s like a random materialisation of content from nothing and vanishes to nothing. Calling it thought I imagined it as an object. But it’s only an experience of content.
The content of a thought is never an experience. But the thought as a phenomenon is experienced.

Let’s look at this through an example.
Let’s say you have a thought about Batman.
The thought itself (as a phenomenon) is experienced, it’s happening. But Batman isn’t.
Batman is the content which is never an experience.
But when a thought is there, it’s known, it’s experienced. But not the content.
Can you see this? Not just understanding it, but actually seeing it?

Here is another example. Think the thought ‘sweet’.
Just notice that the thought ‘sweet’ is there. It’s happening. Right?
But do you actually experience sweetness when you think the thought ‘sweet’?
Most of the time attention is on thoughts. Thinking only almost feels like another realm. Like a level of reality. There is a feeling that everything is behind a curtain. Even sensations feel less real as the attention is more on thoughts - concepts of those sensations.
Yes. And why is that? It’s because our focus is on thought content, and not on experience. But we mistake our thoughts with experience. We believe that our thoughts are actual experience, while they are never an experience, only just an imagination.

Seeing the difference clearly between thoughts (imagination) and experience (reality) is essential.
Since discovering how things actually are can only happen in experience, and never in thoughts.
Also one thought came repeatedly. If this is all happening automatically, what are we doing here? There is not me, no you, no decision made, what is going on then? ... It is not bothering or coming too often, just feels puzzling.
:) This is an intellectual question and thus the reply also could only be conceptual.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:15 pm

Hi Vivien,

last few days I have an impression I'm getting somehow unnecessarily confused. Even things which were clear as a day I'm now getting confused. I'm getting it all mixed up. I was a bit tired last few days evening when answering and got caught in thinking. That only says to me, I need to internalize and see these again and again. It should be clear to see even when tired, right.
I cannot look at the thought directly, only as a memory what was it a moment ago.
OK. Then you have to look more. Looking / seeing / noticing happens in the moment when a thought is there. And never in retrospect, never as a memory.
I really have no idea why I wrote this. It is clear now that what I cannot - is "think" about thought at the same time. Only as a memory. But of course I see each thought as it is here now as it presents itself. Seeing is not thinking clearly.
This is the difference between ‘waking’ and ‘dreaming’.
This is exactly that difference I saw between being absorbed in thoughts, seeing that as reality vs. coming back to senses. What is here now? This sound, touch, taste, smell, sight and all bodily sensations.

It seems when I was writing replies last few days in the evening, I was tired and added there some more interpretations of thinking and got it all confused.
Calling it thought I imagined it as an object. But it’s only an experience of content.
The content of a thought is never an experience. But the thought as a phenomenon is experienced.

Let’s say you have a thought about Batman.
The thought itself (as a phenomenon) is experienced, it’s happening. But Batman isn’t.
Batman is the content which is never an experience.
But when a thought is there, it’s known, it’s experienced. But not the content.
Can you see this? Not just understanding it, but actually seeing it?
By content I do not mean "meaning". Again I'm sorry for confusion. There is a visual thought of Batman. By content I meant that image of Batman which is experienced. By meaning I mean that actual Batman. I do not want to get caught in the unecessary discussion. To answer you, yes I of course see this difference. :)
Here is another example. Think the thought ‘sweet’.
Just notice that the thought ‘sweet’ is there. It’s happening. Right?
But do you actually experience sweetness when you think the thought ‘sweet’?
No, of course not. In your words content of thought is the word sweet, not actual sweetness. This is totally clear.

Today I came back to your previous questions again:
What is it exactly that has a control over thoughts?
What is it exactly that could cut off thinking?
What is doing it? Where is this doer?

Does the thought of I is cutting off thinking?
Does the sensations in the head cutting of thinking?

Find the one who has the power to cut off thinking. Find this doer.
Again and again I'm finding thoughts coming on their own and disappearing on their own. Being cut off on their own. The thought of I is not doing anything.

I investigated me-thought today again and there was no bodily sensation, no solidness or realness. It was just a thought. "me". "table". "computer" all same. I tried to recall some memories of guilt, past mistakes which in past had a strong me-thought associated with it. They felt unreal. Not that I would not believe they happen, but they weren't so solid like in past.

I'm thinking how else to explore the me-thought believe and believe in thoughts. I want to make sure I'm not deceiving myself and it is as clear as it seems.

thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:22 am

Hi Peter,
I investigated me-thought today again and there was no bodily sensation, no solidness or realness. It was just a thought.
So are you saying that the seeming solidness of the thought ‘me’ comes when there is a sensation is present at the same time?

Look into this, since almost always this is the case.

Find the sensation which supposed to be the ‘feeling of me’ or the ‘sense of me’.
Where is this feeling / sensation is located in the body?
I tried to recall some memories of guilt, past mistakes which in past had a strong me-thought associated with it.
Yes. So what happens here is that with a memory that triggers guilt, there are unpleasant contracted sensations in the body. And these sensations are being mistaken to be a solid real me.

Just notice that all seeming realness and solidness of the me comes from sensations.

The self / me is not just simply a thought, but it’s also a misinterpreted sensation.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:25 pm

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:03 pm

Hi Vivien,
So are you saying that the seeming solidness of the thought ‘me’ comes when there is a sensation is present at the same time?
Yes that was my experience so far.
Find the sensation which supposed to be the ‘feeling of me’ or the ‘sense of me’.
Where is this feeling / sensation is located in the body?
Today I was not too successful in finding the me-thought (it was generally very busy day I had hard time to find enough quite time for this), so I'd like to continue tomorrow. But from what I observed, there was a contraction feeling around stomach, which I generally observe when there is stress or anxiety. I'd like to give it more time.
Just notice that all seeming realness and solidness of the me comes from sensations.

The self / me is not just simply a thought, but it’s also a misinterpreted sensation.
I will give it a little bit more time.

Thanks,
Peter


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