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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:19 pm

It still feels like there is some positive or negative value here.
Lovely thought by the way.... ;-)
It is ok and for the moment we will leave it at that, you will find that this idea will appear again and again for a while, just rest with it.
It feels a bit more like it's ok that it's here today. I mean there's nothing I can do about it really. Then the story starts - 'it's ok today because there was nothing you really needed to get done... just wait until tomorrow'.
And then the story starts and even better you notice, yeah!
Yes - I see the story start off and go spiraling, and then sometimes getting stuck inside it.
It is the same like what you write later about resistance. Stuck and unstucking happens. Sometimes this sometimes that.
No need to add weight or importance to it.
I think more clarity is arriving re. resistance - at times it seems clear that it's just an idea - the idea that 'I' am resisting 'that'. So maybe there is pain. And then tightening sensations/emotions come. Or maybe trying to move the body to be more comfortable. All just sensations / actions / happenings. Interpreted as resistance. Who's to say that the tightening emotion or the moving is different from the pain - or a response to it? (although there's a little voice right now trying to tell me it is). They are all just sensations and there is no 'I' controlling any of them. Even though it seems like 'I' am responsible for resisting or not resisting. And trying not to resist is just another story about resisting the resistance and you end up in a big tangle and frustrated. The idea of 'trying' is, I think, just that - another idea - it's a story about some sort of battle inside, in the head, of an 'I' trying to change what is or achieve something. When all is there is either the action/outcome happening or not.
You most certainly do get more clarity, beautiful work!
Often whatever turns up brings us into a muddle, one story after the other, whatever appears starts a story, happy merry go round - and oh, everything soooo important.
Need to look more at this. Not much came up like this, but will be on the lookout - I think maybe some are 'hidden' as present-perfect tense - statements that say things like 'I'm rubbish at getting up in the morning' (implies always - in the past and in the future).
Take your time and share what you find. This is just about noticing and having a closer look.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:26 pm

And then the story starts and even better you notice, yeah!
I think I'm gradually noticing more. And the resistance thing doesn't seem so powerful.
Now be on the look out for stories which suposedly start in the past. All these "...and it/he/she/I was always like that", or "This should have never happened again" or whatever.
Just quickly check what is really there in the moment. Just this. Not more not less. :-)
Not much is coming up to work with here. More prevalent are either:
  • stories that suggest a permanence, a characteristic of 'me' - both 'positive' and 'negative' - such as 'I'm not very good at this.', 'I'm impatient' (already discussed), 'I'm smart' etc.
  • stories about the future (the most prevalent) - 'I'll never be well / it will always be like this', 'I won't be able to cope with such-and-such'...
Thanks!

PS I notice it's harder to accept a 'no self' in people 'I love' - my partner, the cat, my mother.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:36 pm

I think I'm gradually noticing more. And the resistance thing doesn't seem so powerful.
Sounds good. :-)
Not much is coming up to work with here. More prevalent are either:
stories that suggest a permanence, a characteristic of 'me' - both 'positive' and 'negative' - such as 'I'm not very good at this.', 'I'm impatient' (already discussed), 'I'm smart' etc.
stories about the future (the most prevalent) - 'I'll never be well / it will always be like this', 'I won't be able to cope with such-and-such'...
In the moment is there any proof of what is in thought? Can any of it be known or is it just one assumption and another?
How habitual are these thoughts? Anything new?
PS I notice it's harder to accept a 'no self' in people 'I love' - my partner, the cat, my mother.
Interesting.
Why not take a piece of paper and write down as speedy as possible everything which is connected for you with no self. No thinking just pinning it down.
Is there an idea which would make 'my partner, the cat, my mother' in anyway less?

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:23 pm

In the moment is there any proof of what is in thought? Can any of it be known or is it just one assumption and another?
How habitual are these thoughts? Anything new?
In the moment there is no proof. Thought's about the past / patterns require memory, classification of behaviours etc. Thought's about the future are then making a projection based on perceived patterns. Usually with negative bias thrown in for good measure. So, in the moment none of this exists. Though memory, seeing patterns, projecting etc. can be a useful tool.
Why not take a piece of paper and write down as speedy as possible everything which is connected for you with no self. No thinking just pinning it down.
Is there an idea which would make 'my partner, the cat, my mother' in anyway less?
Ok. Here's what I have...
  • No 'essence' of a 'me' here - not a thing you can find and say that's 'me'
  • In present moment there is only sensation, emotions and thoughts; everything else is thought content
  • no controller of life
  • no 'I' making choices and being responsible
  • no behavioural patterns or characteristics in the moment - are only seen through thought content as above
So, then I ask myself what do I feel when I am with / thinking about these people. What is it in them / about them that 'I love'? A warm feeling called affection / love arises. Why is it arising? It seems that it's mainly familiarity, and for romantic love some 'chemistry'. Familiarity - e.g. I love my cat. But if I'd brought a different cat home from the shelter, I'd love that cat. But in my heart I think she's 'special' because I love X and Y about her and we have a stronger bond than I've had with other cats. Familiarity - e.g. I love my mother - and memories - because she's always there for me etc. etc. Leaving romantic love out here as there seem to be other layers - thought it's easier to look at non-romantic situation first! Although I think this is also mainly familiarity. So, as we noted before, I look at my cat, or speak to my mother on the phone. Recognition happens. Memories of past times together. Warm feeling arises. So then it seems that the love arises because of the story. It's an attachment based on thought content. Which makes me feel kind of sad and lonely.
I suppose I'm saying that we've identified that in the moment there is only sensation, emotions and thoughts - everything else is thought content. The emotions towards those I love do not arise in response to sensation, so must arise in response to thought content. Although, I suppose there is no way of knowing for sure - all 3 just arise. Though we've concluded that in sensation / senses there is no knowing of what is - 'cat' is just colours / shape / texture / sound. But to me she is so much more. She is affection, and cuddles and 'pleased-to-see-me's.
With love comes fear though. Fear of loss. My biggest fears are of my loved ones' deaths. I know that we will all die one day, and statistically my cat and my mother will die before me. Of course, I can't know this - I might die first - but then I'm sad for them.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:36 pm

In the moment there is no proof.
This is important, you see, all 'proof' which is there is added by thoughts, building the story.
No 'essence' of a 'me' here - not a thing you can find and say that's 'me'
Right. And still the me isn't lost, is it?
In present moment there is only sensation, emotions and thoughts; everything else is thought content
Since emotion is sensation + thought + rather often a physical feeling one could say so.
no controller of life
no 'I' making choices and being responsible
Nope.
How does this feel?
no behavioural patterns or characteristics in the moment - are only seen through thought content as above
In the moment there is just seeing, hearing, smelling, touch, tasting and thought. This is very strictly speaking and probably shooting over the mark.
Lets loosen up a bit, let the hair down so to speak. Behavioual patterns and characteristics will so be there after Gating. Nothing will be lost. And they will be as amusing or embarassing as before. :-)

Reading the last bit you wrote: Are you afraid that the love you share with others will be lost after gating? The special connection you feel to your favorite two and four legged ones? The wonderful memories?

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:31 pm

Hi Jadzia,
Right. And still the me isn't lost, is it?
Not if was never there. And the doing and the being is still there. And sometimes the sense of a me is still there.
no controller of life
no 'I' making choices and being responsible
Nope.
How does this feel?
At times it feels freeing, like a weight is being lifted - no longer have to take all that agonising over 'decisions' so seriously - can trust that the 'decision' will happen when it needs to. When thinking longer term there is some of the old fear - that if I don't control things everything will go wrong - e.g. If I don't work on it and figure it out I won't ever get well. And sometimes the fear that this makes me a victim - just carried along and there's nothing I can do to stop bad things happening. But that is probably because of lingering old belief that there is an I that can control everything and keep bad things away - and that's exhausting - it's basically giving the mind a full time job of arranging the outside world to be just so.
Are you afraid that the love you share with others will be lost after gating? The special connection you feel to your favorite two and four legged ones? The wonderful memories?
I'm not really sure, exactly. Maybe I'm thinking that if self is just in story and emotions about self are just triggered by story, and self is therefore not real, then if love and relationships are just in story and the emotions just triggered by story, they are somehow also therefore 'less' - i.e. not real, just part of a story. Like they lose some importance. I find myself caring less about how the apparent self might be bothered by something. So I think I will care less / think less of /find less important the love and relationships.

Actually, I think right now, am having another one of those times - a few days at a time - where I'm feeling a bit confused/at sea about where I've got to in the exploration and where I'm going / what it all means!

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:31 pm

Hi Jadzia,
Right. And still the me isn't lost, is it?
Not if was never there. And the doing and the being is still there. And sometimes the sense of a me is still there.
no controller of life
no 'I' making choices and being responsible
Nope.
How does this feel?
At times it feels freeing, like a weight is being lifted - no longer have to take all that agonising over 'decisions' so seriously - can trust that the 'decision' will happen when it needs to. When thinking longer term there is some of the old fear - that if I don't control things everything will go wrong - e.g. If I don't work on it and figure it out I won't ever get well. And sometimes the fear that this makes me a victim - just carried along and there's nothing I can do to stop bad things happening. But that is probably because of lingering old belief that there is an I that can control everything and keep bad things away - and that's exhausting - it's basically giving the mind a full time job of arranging the outside world to be just so.
Are you afraid that the love you share with others will be lost after gating? The special connection you feel to your favorite two and four legged ones? The wonderful memories?
I'm not really sure, exactly. Maybe I'm thinking that if self is just in story and emotions about self are just triggered by story, and self is therefore not real, then if love and relationships are just in story and the emotions just triggered by story, they are somehow also therefore 'less' - i.e. not real, just part of a story. Like they lose some importance. I find myself caring less about how the apparent self might be bothered by something. So I think I will care less / think less of /find less important the love and relationships.

Actually, I think right now, am having another one of those times - a few days at a time - where I'm feeling a bit confused/at sea about where I've got to in the exploration and where I'm going / what it all means!

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:28 pm

Not if was never there. And the doing and the being is still there. And sometimes the sense of a me is still there./quote]
Lets clear something up . There is a self in the story, this will always be there, why not? There is no self as in entity, controler ect.
The sense of me? Why not, if it is known that there is no self as entity.
And sometimes the fear that this makes me a victim - just carried along and there's nothing I can do to stop bad things happening. But that is probably because of lingering old belief that there is an I that can control everything and keep bad things away - and that's exhausting - it's basically giving the mind a full time job of arranging the outside world to be just so.
This is a beautiful description how the belief in being able to control life causes suffering.

Let me tell you a little story.
I live near a park and the city gardeners have a somewhat erratic way to treat the plants in the park. For years they cut trees back in a way that one wondered if they wanted to kill them: they cut through the stem somewhat in the middle of it, boom, stem standing around, so not looking like a tree. Years passed and after several of them the tree looked exactly like it did look before, same form, being whole again.
What happened? What if the tree in some way has an image what it is, what it is like, what it looks like, what makes it into the sort of tree it is?
Did cutting back hurt the tree? Sure, yes. Did it have a sense of being crippled? Did it debate the injustice of it and so on? Well trees don't, right? They just don't stop growing in their own way.

What if you are the same?
What if that what you really are has an idea what you are like, wouldn't the moving towards being whole simply happen, if there is not too much outer interference, just naturally?
Would any control be needed, any planning? Wouldn't it just happen sort of naturally? Helpful ideas coming, the stopping of harm what ever way, the choosing of paths happening?
What if all the attempts of controlling might interfere with the natural developement?

Play with this. See if it is yours. :-)

Love,
Jadzia

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:29 pm

Sorry, there must have been a quote too many somewhere....

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:49 pm

Would any control be needed, any planning? Wouldn't it just happen sort of naturally? Helpful ideas coming, the stopping of harm what ever way, the choosing of paths happening?
What if all the attempts of controlling might interfere with the natural developement?
I sense what you mean. But something I'm wondering... planning happens as part of this right? How do you tell the difference between the kind of planning that needs to just happen as part of being, and the kind that is caught up with the idea of a self in control? Maybe it feels different? Maybe it's the difference between a kind of compulsion to be in control and make things happen, and the unfolding of each step as it goes, which might include 'choices' and intention etc.

I'm also taking a little time to go through all our posts - taking stock, seeing where I might have questions etc. I'm feeling the 'need' to look is waning - not sure if this is because needs are falling away, or because I'm missing something. Trying not to be too controlling, but will review everything we've discussed so far... Will write with what I find / any questions.

Hope you are having a good weekend :-)

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:51 pm

But something I'm wondering... planning happens as part of this right?
right.
How do you tell the difference between the kind of planning that needs to just happen as part of being, and the kind that is caught up with the idea of a self in control?
You go camping and a list is written of what to pack.
You plan a birthday party, lists are written what to buy for what recipes or what else isn't at home.
You plan your life path, with 20 you marry, with 22 the first kid, with 30 you finish college.
Which of these has the best chance of being an idea of a self in control?
I'm also taking a little time to go through all our posts - taking stock, seeing where I might have questions etc. I'm feeling the 'need' to look is waning - not sure if this is because needs are falling away, or because I'm missing something. Trying not to be too controlling, but will review everything we've discussed so far... Will write with what I find / any questions.
Always a good idea.

Would you still like an exercise? This one is best done in a relaxed way and needs just being curious.
Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:20 pm

You go camping and a list is written of what to pack.
You plan a birthday party, lists are written what to buy for what recipes or what else isn't at home.
You plan your life path, with 20 you marry, with 22 the first kid, with 30 you finish college.
Which of these has the best chance of being an idea of a self in control?
Yes - I see here the difference is clear. I think I'm more of a 'micro-controller' - trying to control my day / week to avoid symptoms. Obviously some of that is sensible planning that happens. But I'll look out for more 'controlling' behaviour and thoughts and see what I find.
Go out, come back and tell me what you found.
I get a sense of this, but need to look more. Today I am very very tired and also dizzy and congested - when I feel like this I feel totally disconnected from the 'outside world' - you know how when you have a bad cold and you feel a bit like your head is underwater and everything else seems muted? It's kind of like that. I'm going to look again tomorrow. I'm sure these sensations shouldn't preclude me from seeing, but maybe tomorrow it is easier :-)

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:27 pm

But I'll look out for more 'controlling' behaviour and thoughts and see what I find.
Thoughts about controlling behaviour...
you know how when you have a bad cold and you feel a bit like your head is underwater and everything else seems muted? It's kind of like that. I'm going to look again tomorrow.
Totally get it.
Do you know the quote: Time is nothing, timing is everything?
I'm sure these sensations shouldn't preclude me from seeing......
I do hope you see that this is just an assumption, right? Feeling bad happens as well as not feeling right for excercises. All that is ok.
If there is an inclination to believe some thoughts make sure you only believe the kind ones. :-)

Take your time. And you can repeat the excercise as often as you like.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:37 pm

Tried again today. I think my feeling poorly and grumpy and frustrated is getting in the way. Maybe all will become clearer again soon - right now I feel like I have 0% clarity!

Ok, so this is what I've got...
Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.
Ok. Yes. All moving. Lot's going on. Hard not to separate parts out - birds separate from trees etc. But recognition/memory needed for the separation.
Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.
Ok. Yes.
Notice that everything is part of one movement.
Now, this I'm not getting. The internal sensations are too strong and feel like a separation between in here and out there. I think I've got this before, but not the last few days. The ones 'in here' come with me, while I pass the others by. This is probably just me currently seeing slow changing sensations as more permanent than they really are.
Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
So, sound doesn't seem to have a barrier. Although in thoughts I know that the source of the sound is, say, a bird over there, the sound is neither experienced inside or outside, or is experienced both inside and outside. It just is. And without memory of the sound there could be no identification of it as say bird song (or breeze in the trees or so on). Picking up on direction, distance away of source etc. only comes from learning / memory / thoughts. Similarly with the feeling of the breeze on my skin.
However, the internal sensations feel separate at the moment. And the thoughts. People go by too and I feel very separate from them.
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
It feels like 'this' isn't moving relative to 'my' observation point. It's like when people used to believe the Sun went around the Earth - from the frame of reference of being on the Earth that is what's happening. It's only if you get out of that frame of reference that you can see the whole 'dance' - the Earth goes around the Sun which is also moving around the galaxy - everything moving. It feels, at the moment, that if I imagine looking down from above at the park (where I was exploring today) then I get the sense that all is moving - I am not separate special but part of it all. But that's just an idea / imagining. Not experience.
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Well, awaring only happens when there is something to be aware of. It often feels like 'I' am aware of 'that', but really the awareness and the object appear at the same time. I can't be aware of nothing.
Is there anything which is not just happening?
I don't think so. The story of me trying to see something is quite strong today, so that may be getting in the way... I shall mediate and relax a bit and see if things loosen up.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:36 pm

It is always more difficult when one is stuck in the head....
In the end it is about letting go for just a moment and not giving a damn for all the wonderful explanations, differentiations, all these wild crazy wonderful thoughts. It is like getting under their radar for a moment.
It is actually quite similar to enjoying a wonderful meal, it is just good and you are not interested in who made it, what the spices are, what veggies are used, you just want to enjoy this yummy goodness (unless you are a cook that is, might be totally not possible for them).
Same happens when in nature - just enjoy, no need to overthink anything.
But recognition/memory needed for the separation.
See above, why care, lol.
So, sound doesn't seem to have a barrier. Although in thoughts I know that the source of the sound is, say, a bird over there, the sound is neither experienced inside or outside, or is experienced both inside and outside. It just is. And without memory of the sound there could be no identification of it as say bird song (or breeze in the trees or so on). Picking up on direction, distance away of source etc. only comes from learning / memory / thoughts. Similarly with the feeling of the breeze on my skin.
Good observation. What about seeing or tasting?
Well, awaring only happens when there is something to be aware of. It often feels like 'I' am aware of 'that', but really the awareness and the object appear at the same time. I can't be aware of nothing.
Then.... what is aware?
Is there a something needed to be aware?
I shall mediate and relax a bit and see if things loosen up.
Always a good idea to relax. See with staring we don't get anywhere, playful, gentle gaze brings us on.
But then it is ok to have these stuck days - life is happening, sometimes this sometimes that. Go with the wave.



Love,
Jadzia


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