Goodbye me!

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Manolo2020
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Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:20 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that the idea of an "I" or a "me" is just a concept that has been associated by this body-mind with a real thing, when apparently it isn't. I intellectually understand what I am saying and that is just a concept, but I still feel it's real. Sounds are heard right here, vision happens to "me". How can't I be associated with this body?

What are you looking for at LU?
To see through the apparent illusion and stop being *so focused* on these thoughts which are not necessarily making me suffer (at least not always), but this body-mind invests a lot there. Typical thing to repro conversations inside this skull, imagining responses, etc. When shower happens (and I'm speaking like this not because I know for myself, but because I feel safe here speaking that way) thoughts arise rehearsing conversation instead of allowing this body to just enjoy the hot water.

So, I am looking to break through the illusion and apparently I have no problems with not having "a manager" inside this body, or losing my theoretical free will.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A "custom" feedback to my particular concerns. I've read several books on the subject (Parsons, Sailor Bob, Ramesh, Hedderman, Spira, Gary Weber, Saltzman, Francis Lucille, Nathan Gill, Sylvester, and I can keep going) but who cares? It is clear at this point that knowledge is not working. So I expect to be able to hear "something" more custom to where am I. In other words, a question or anything that points this mind into the right direction, if there's one.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
From christian to believer in every pop-spiritual thing, to OBE fan (tried to OBE for a year) to agnostic to atheist. I read Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris. I've been fully atheist for about 15 years, and then, because of Sam Harris (Waking Up book) I started looking into meditation. That made me an atheist-meditator haha =) but while trying to get better at it I read "The mind illuminated" from Yates, which started make me doubt again fi there was "something" out there. Well, here I am, a 32 minute per day meditator, that is now doing self-inquiry (because of Gary Weber) and watching Tony Parsons on YouTube while I do weight training hahah =)

This is it. I do not know what I am now, but I am starting to suspect that I am not =)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:40 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:16 pm

Thanks a lot for your response, Vivien. ☺️
Can we agree on these?

Of course! We are either on this together, or nobody's here!

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for?

I am looking to see for myself that there's actually no experiencer, no manager, to shift from a self-centered focus where the experience seems as if "I am my thoughts", to a place of deeper understanding of all these.

How would your life change if you find that?

The seeker will vanish, which will potentially give this body a less stressful experience. For example, in terms of daily experience, giving less importance to debates and conversations, opinions, etc. I assume that if I "see" that I am not these thoughts, feelings, etc, the mind will be less focused giving them less importance.

What are you hoping for to change?

The idea that I am better than others. There's something deep inside that really believes is better than others. I am laughing 😂😂as I write because it's ridiculous! But, yesterday I was "enumerating" different persons, immediately attaching them what I think was their value? And "verifying" hahaha (how incredibly ridiculous!!) that effectively I am more important, capable, intelligent than each one of them!!! Apparently Vivien, I'm the most important person in the planet. How fucking ridiculous.

What do you hope that should happen?

I am expecting to drop the false and probably let this body relax and act without hidden agendas, double-thoughts, etc. I am not speaking of a perfect-generous-human. I'm speaking of real, spontaneous.

Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

I used to have the fantasy of a perfect person, always happy and tolerant. Never angry or speaking shit about no-one. In other words, I used to have that image, but that is completely lost now. The image that I have now is zero and then even more I want to see what this is.


Thanks a lot for taking the time to read and reply this, Vivien. I am all yours.

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:31 am

Hi,

What name would you like me to call you?

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
The seeker will vanish, which will potentially give this body a less stressful experience. For example, in terms of daily experience, giving less importance to debates and conversations, opinions, etc. I assume that if I "see" that I am not these thoughts, feelings, etc, the mind will be less focused giving them less importance.
Seeking usually stops, but there is no guarantee that there will be less stress. This might or might not happen.

When in conversations there is a disagreement the unpleasantness or suffering doesn’t just come because there is a belief in a self. Suffering / unpleasant emotions and reactions happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added on narrative.

And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.
The idea that I am better than others. There's something deep inside that really believes is better than others. I am laughing
The chance that this idea that I am better than others will dissolve when the self is seen through is quite low. Since it’s not solely depend on the belief in a separate self. This belief is part of personality, which is the result of past conditionings. Actually, there are many people who have seen through the illusion walk around with the belief that I am better than others, I am above others, since I’ve realized it, while they haven’t.

But this topic can be looked at separately, to investigate where this idea is coming from, and what kind of protective purpose it has. Since this belief is a protective mechanism. Looking into this is a separate process.
Apparently Vivien, I'm the most important person in the planet. How fucking ridiculous.
Yes, for yourself :)
Typical thing to repro conversations inside this skull, imagining responses, etc. When shower happens (and I'm speaking like this not because I know for myself, but because I feel safe here speaking that way) thoughts arise rehearsing conversation instead of allowing this body to just enjoy the hot water.
What you describe here is quite natural, and part of the human condition. You are not alone in this. We all play internal movies and believe in the moment that they are actually happening. And when the movie is taken to be real in the moment, the associated emotions arise.
It is clear at this point that knowledge is not working. So I expect to be able to hear "something" more custom to where am I. In other words, a question or anything that points this mind into the right direction, if there's one.
OK. But I won’t give you more intellectual ideas, you already have plenty. :) Rather we are going to investigate those ideas you already have, to see if they can stand up the scrutiny of experience.
But this investigation is not for your mind. This cannot be solved or discovered on the level of thinking.
Our investigation will be very experiential.
Your mind or intellect is not needed.
This might feel a bit humbling, especially if you have an identification with your intellect.
But you literally won’t need it. Actually, it could be in the way.

You only need curiosity and an openness to see whatever is here, regardless what you think what is here.

The thing is that it cannot be know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside from the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine it within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.
that is now doing self-inquiry (because of Gary Weber) and watching Tony Parsons on YouTube while I do weight training hahah =)
Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
I read "The mind illuminated" from Yates
I’m familiar with Culadasa’s work. But I’m going to ask you to put this aside too. I am going to give you plenty of pointers and exercises, which will require time and attention.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to read and reply this, Vivien.
You are welcome :)

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.

Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:42 am

Thanks a lot, Vivien! I appreciate your responses and time.
What name would you like me to call you?
Manolo is perfect!

that is now doing self-inquiry (because of Gary Weber) and watching Tony Parsons on YouTube while I do weight training hahah =)
Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
Can this body continue doing weight training? 😂
Of course, Vivien. I completely understand and I will focus on the exercises that you will give me. You have my 100% agreement. By the way, I medidate 30" on the mornings. Should that be dropped as well? If yes, fantastic. I'm all here.
Is there any resistance to any of it?
Zero, Vivien. I understand your answers and even if my expectations are different from reality, I am ready to accept what it comes.
Do you feel ready to start the investigation?
Completely ready.



Thanks again for what you do!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:55 am

Hi Manolo,
By the way, I medidate 30" on the mornings. Should that be dropped as well? If yes, fantastic. I'm all her
If you could spend that time for looking that would be very good.

So with these pointers, its better if you can set aside some time, like this 30-minute session you used for mediation, and do nothing else than inquire. But it would also very useful, if you could investigate in the midst of your everyday activity as well, for several short periods (10-30 seconds) throughout the day.

Let’s start it.

Please investigate the followings for a whole day:

In your everyday life, what is it that you believe yourself to be?
What is it that you call to be ‘myself’?


Try not to think about the answer, but rather notice in experience what you call to be ‘me’.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:48 pm

Posting to make sure you are aware that I'm here. I read it and I will do it tomorrow, full day. Then I will post back.

Thanks Vivien!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:03 am

All right, thank you for letting me know.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:03 am

All right, thank you for letting me know.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:40 am

So far, during this morning exercise this is what the experience seemed to be.
In your everyday life, what is it that you believe yourself to be?

A body capable of sensing and responding to internal and external events. While doing the exercise, it felt as if the most relevant part of this apparent "me" was located between the chest and the top of the head. At the same time, doing the exercise it seemed very very real that this body was capable of moving its atention where it wanted. In other words, the clear influence of the attention location gives this body the feeling of free will.

What is it that you call to be ‘myself’?

A word that points to this specific body, which also includes a collection of ideas and experiences which seem relevant today.


While doing the experiment on this second question, there was a clear feeling of being a fake hahaha :). This body has the need to protect and defend those ideas and collected experiences as something valuable. It was clear that despite the fact that this body acts well in society (generous, apparently compassionate) it is doing an effort, expending energy to keep the idea of being good, alive.

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:03 am

Hi Manolo,

Thanks for your responses.
While doing the experiment on this second question, there was a clear feeling of being a fake hahaha :). This body has the need to protect and defend those ideas and collected experiences as something valuable. It was clear that despite the fact that this body acts well in society (generous, apparently compassionate) it is doing an effort, expending energy to keep the idea of being good, alive.
How do you know that it’s the body that is trying to keep the idea of being good? Isn’t it Manolo, the person, who wants to keep up the idea of himself being good and generous?

When you say ‘I’, don’t you refer to this psychological entity, called Manolo?

Whenever you say or think that “I am disappointed” – is the body disappointed, or this person, called Manolo is disappointed, who is supposedly living inside the body, and experiences the world and others out there (outside the body), by using the body’s senses?

Tell me how you experience a 'me' / myself in this very moment. Don’t go to ideas, don’t go to memories, just describe the pure experience of me or myself right here and now.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:39 pm

How do you know that it’s the body that is trying to keep the idea of being good? Isn’t it Manolo, the person, who wants to keep up the idea of himself being good and generous?
Oh yes, you are totally right, Vivien. It is Manolo the one who tries to keep that up. When I said "the body", my thought process was: "The mind wants to be good because it wants to protect the body". Manolo is a apparently in the mind, and the mind seems to me to be inside the body.
When you say ‘I’, don’t you refer to this psychological entity, called Manolo?
I feel it is a self-pointing reference. In other words, "I" points to this body which includes a psychological entity named Manolo.
Whenever you say or think that “I am disappointed” – is the body disappointed, or this person, called Manolo is disappointed, who is supposedly living inside the body, and experiences the world and others out there (outside the body), by using the body’s senses?
No doubts here: it is exclusively Manolo. The body (excluding the magical process of Manolo) does not seem to be capable of being disappointed. Seems to be that it is like saying "that table is disappointed", makes no sense. :)
Tell me how you experience a 'me' / myself in this very moment. Don’t go to ideas, don’t go to memories, just describe the pure experience of me or myself right here and now.
At this very moment and without a single idea, I don't even experience a "me". It's just things happening.

Thanks a lot, Vivien!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:25 am

Hi Manolo,
When I said "the body", my thought process was: "The mind wants to be good because it wants to protect the body". Manolo is a apparently in the mind, and the mind seems to me to be inside the body.
You say Manolo is in the mind. Let’s look into this.

Where is the exact location of this ‘mind’ which is supposed to be the placeholder for Manolo?
Can you find a mind in experience?

Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

No doubts here: it is exclusively Manolo. The body (excluding the magical process of Manolo) does not seem to be capable of being disappointed. Seems to be that it is like saying "that table is disappointed", makes no sense. :)
Exactly :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:27 am

Hello Vivien! =)
You say Manolo is in the mind. Let’s look into this.
Where is the exact location of this ‘mind’ which is supposed to be the placeholder for Manolo?
Experientially speaking it has no location. Knowledge of the human body tells me that it is likely a byproduc of the brain, but it is completely true that from my experience, it has specific no location.
Can you find a mind in experience?
When I tried, I found that "mind" was apparently thoughts moving. So, a thought arised with the information "this is the mind", but it seems like a self-serving mechanism. Like "I am I" or something like that.
Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now?
That's confusing for me. In my experience, when the attention is on the thoughts but not hooked inside them, it feels as if mind can be observed. But it was clear before that "mind" were just thoughts moving around. Yesterday, when I replied "things are happening" it was a genuine feeling despite the fact that I know it's a typical description given by Advaita teachers. There was a feeling of that, things just happening. Right now, when trying to observe the mind, I found none but at the same time it did not felt as if everything was just happening. Sorry Vivien! This question is hard, because rught now I can't even say in my experience if there's a mind, but that's counter-intuitive!
What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
Seems to be a stream of "dead" thoughts. Like a random description of abritratily selected information coming from the senses or previous experience.
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?
Clearly it has not!
How ‘mind’ as such is experienced? As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?
As a voice, an imagined sound describing part of what's happening or past experience.


Thanks for helping me carry this investigation, Vivien :D

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:58 am

Hi Manolo,
Knowledge of the human body tells me that it is likely a byproduc of the brain, but it is completely true that from my experience, it has specific no location.
This learned knowledge is what you have to put aside, since what we do here to check if this learned idea (of a mind) can actually stand up to the scrutiny of experience.
When I tried, I found that "mind" was apparently thoughts moving.
But is a thought an actual mind, or a thought is just a thought?
So, a thought arised with the information "this is the mind", but it seems like a self-serving mechanism. Like "I am I" or something like that.
Just because there are thoughts ABOUT a mind, does it mean that there is an actual mind in reality?
Or all there is to a mind is a thought?
That's confusing for me. In my experience, when the attention is on the thoughts but not hooked inside them, it feels as if mind can be observed.
Are you sure that an actual, real mind can ever be observed?
Is it possible that when you think about a mind there is a visual thought (a mental image) depicting or visualizing a mind?

Is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from a ‘mind’?

Yesterday, when I replied "things are happening" it was a genuine feeling despite the fact that I know it's a typical description given by Advaita teachers. There was a feeling of that, things just happening. Right now, when trying to observe the mind, I found none but at the same time it did not felt as if everything was just happening.
OK, so there is an expectation here. We are not doing this inquiry to get a certain result, like FEELING that everything is just happening. We are doing this in order to see how things actually are compare to what we BELIEVE how things are.

Noticing that everything is just happening is not a feeling. It’s just simply the recognition of this being a fact of reality.
This question is hard, because rught now I can't even say in my experience if there's a mind, but that's counter-intuitive!
Counter intuitive? What you call intuitive is not an actual intuition, rather a belief. So far you’ve believed that there is such thing as an actual mind in which thoughts and Manolo appear in. But when you look, you can see that this mind is simply not there. It’s just been assumed / imagined all along.
How ‘mind’ as such is experienced? As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?
M: As a voice, an imagined sound describing part of what's happening or past experience.
But an imagined voice is not an actual mind, an imagined voice is just an imagined voice.

So this imagined voice (which is nothing else than a verbal thought) might talk ABOUT a mind, but can this mind actually be found in reality?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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