Ready!

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:58 pm

I hope the fatigue lifts, if it stays, observe its effect. Can you stay between the emotions appearing and the thought carousel telling why it is a nuissance and what you can't do now and how it should be?
Does one need lots of energy for looking? For clarity? Tiredness can act as bonus.... have a look. :-)
Had a terrible night's sleep so now even more exhausted. Observing. The thoughts come slower... Today I'm so tired that I don't care about the story - so in that sense it's a 'bonus', but it's a deep aching, queasy tired, so not very pleasant even without the story. A lot of the 'should dos' go away - am quite practised at quickly revising down to the bare minimum 'must dos'. Everything is done in a kind of fog, but is all on automatic, so can see the 'I' isn't making stuff happen. Will write more tomorrow when I'm not half asleep!

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:20 pm

......but it's a deep aching, queasy tired, so not very pleasant even without the story.
We call it bone tired in my language....
But here it is .... what if this feeling is just a feeling? What if the word tiredness vanished, doesn't exist? What if the same happened to deep aching, queasy tired? What if it would happen to all other words found to describe this what you are in right now?
What if all resistance would drop, maybe just for a second or two?


Love,
Jadzia, who wishes for a wonderful slumber for you tonight!

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:03 pm

Feeling mostly better today - thanks for your wishes.
But here it is .... what if this feeling is just a feeling? What if the word tiredness vanished, doesn't exist? What if the same happened to deep aching, queasy tired? What if it would happen to all other words found to describe this what you are in right now?
Like with pain, if all the words are dropped, what remains is a sensation that has some inherent unpleasantness - I mean it's biologically intended to make you rest. I wonder whether one only knows it's unpleasant because one has memory of a different state. I mean if that was your permanent state maybe you wouldn't know it / experience it as unpleasant. All relative? Although I'm not sure I believe that since, like I said, it's biologically intended to make you rest.
What if all resistance would drop, maybe just for a second or two?
I'd have fallen asleep! But in my story I knew I had to work today and that sleeping through yesterday would have perpetuated the problem. I didn't worry too much about my day being 'a write off' yesterday. I tried to enjoy having a lazy day instead. I didn't resist the idea of being tired too much, but I felt unwell and didn't like it - i.e. I didn't like the sensation, in each moment. The sensation was strong enough to be the main part of experience in awareness for most of the day - no other sense experiences were stronger to take up awareness.

In your earlier post you asked 'What if different emotions - anger, sadness, joy, love etc. - were just like different colours, all with equal value?... I don't think one has a value greater than another, and all have a place, but like pain, some emotions can feel inherently unpleasant I think. But that doesn't mean they are not appropriate and 'right' at the time. But there is preference. In the same way that we dislike a bitter tasting plant (whose biological need is to not be eaten!) and like a sweet tasting fruit (due to the biological drive for sugar), we dislike some emotions (which can be biologically harmful if experienced for too long, and can be intended to move us away from things) and like others. Maybe the liking and disliking can be ok as it's part of the programming? But seeing it as part of the programming can making it feel less personal?

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:20 pm

Like with pain, if all the words are dropped, what remains is a sensation that has some inherent unpleasantness - I mean it's biologically intended to make you rest.
Does a sensation know about pleasant and unpleasant?
And yes, some reactions are part of the survival programme, direct hits, no story attached.
Just asking: How is it known that something is survival programme or biological intended?
If there would be no thought story action would just happen, or? Are thoughts needed in any way for it?

Like and dislike. Why do they exist? Isn't a deciding factor/unit needed to say what is likeable or not? Can you find one?
Little hint: In the story doesn't count. ;-)

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:10 pm

Does a sensation know about pleasant and unpleasant?
I don't think so. Looking at something less emotionally loaded - sounds - hearing / sound does not know 'pleasant' or 'unpleasant'. It is just hearing/sound. Although some sounds seem to be universally agreed to be disliked - very loud, very high pitched, baby crying - again what they have in common is that the aversion seems to be in base survival program.
And yes, some reactions are part of the survival programme, direct hits, no story attached.
Just asking: How is it known that something is survival programme or biological intended?
These are just thoughts - it's just that when looking it seems that some things seem inherently unpleasant. And I posited that this might be explained by the survival program. But you can't see that they are/aren't part of survival just in direct experience.
If there would be no thought story action would just happen, or? Are thoughts needed in any way for it?
No thoughts needed. If there was no story, then I would just sleep if tired. But story requires certain things of 'me' - working to keep roof over head, food on table etc., so 'I' resist the tiredness because of story.
Like and dislike. Why do they exist? Isn't a deciding factor/unit needed to say what is likeable or not? Can you find one?
Still looking at this one. Need to look more. So far...
Likes and dislikes seem to arise, in the moment, just like 'choice' seems to arise in the moment - an action is taken / choice is made - such as choosing to read a book (I like this) rather than to watch football (I really don't like this). Preferences / likes/ dislikes seem to be built into the program over time, but this can't be seen in this moment in direct experience - all I see now is 'reading a book' not 'watching football'. 'Over time' requires a continuous story, a past. Or maybe 'past' only needed to explain origination of like/dislike. I think there can be like and dislike, or perhaps preference, without a separate self - well preference does appear to exist, while separate self does not so... I can see that the self thought comes up when 'I' don't get the thing that 'I' like or do get the thing 'I' don't like. The feeling of deserving or being hard-done-by seems to be more of a problem than the basic preference.
But back to the main question - does like/dislike require a self? I'm still struggling with this. In this moment if I was presented with two flavours of icecream there would be the arising of a movement towards one flavour (preferred) more than the other. This just happens. Preference doesn't require any reasoning / thought. One can posit that it's because of previous experience / conditioning, but in the moment there is just the moving towards one and not the other.

Thanks, as always. :-)

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:57 pm

Although some sounds seem to be universally agreed to be disliked - very loud, very high pitched, baby crying - again what they have in common is that the aversion seems to be in base survival program.
Careful with assumptions, the "it seems like...".
all I see now is 'reading a book' not 'watching football'.
Just lets be finicky about this one:
In DE is simply seeing, nothing else.
The so called other possibility is just thoughts content, story telling.
Now and then it is really good to break it down to the bone marrow, so to speak, to the what is really there in direct experience and what is story. :-)
I think there can be like and dislike, or perhaps preference, without a separate self - well preference does appear to exist, while separate self does not so...
There is no separate self, entity self, what we talk about here is the idea of a self, a belief in something. Still likes and dislikes are there. Does that mean that there would be dislike and like without the idea of self?
When you look at what you wrote all dislikes seem to have something in common and that is resistance, right?
You remember the moment when pain was there but no resistance? What about the idea of there being an 'I who was in pain' was it around strongly or in the background?

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:16 pm

Just lets be finicky about this one:
In DE is simply seeing, nothing else.
The so called other possibility is just thoughts content, story telling.
Ah yes, I fell for it yet again.
Still likes and dislikes are there. Does that mean that there would be dislike and like without the idea of self?
When you look at what you wrote all dislikes seem to have something in common and that is resistance, right?
Still looking. So, in the present moment there is either liking what is happening, disliking what is happening or neutral. So, let's say I'm eating a delicious cookie - the action is happening, the sensations are present (crunchy, sweet, aroma of the cookie). An emotion may arise - a feeling of happiness / contentment / satisfaction. Thoughts may arise - 'oh, this cookie is really good'. 'I'm really glad I'm eating this cookie, I want another one'. And similarly for a dislike - say, having a filling at the dentist - sensations, emotions (anxiety), thoughts 'this is uncomfortable' and 'I want this to be over'... In both cases we have what is happening, the sensory experience (food) or the engagement of the mind (reading). Then we have emotions that just arise - no control over them arising. And thoughts that arise - and there is no self with control over the thoughts. Some of the thoughts involve the 'I' thought - 'This is good, I should have more of this' or 'This is bad, why am 'I' having to put up with it.' - e.g. an idea of a self that should get what 'I' want. The emotions can arise without any thoughts - directly from the sense experience. But then perhaps the emotions could be considered part of the experience. For example at the dentist, there are the physical sensations and the anxiety sensation. And together thoughts about liking neither. I'm not sure if the emotion arising is part of the like/dislike response. My gut says that it is partly.

But not all 'unpleasant' things are necessarily disliked - or context can play a part. For example, you could cry at a movie - you are feeling sad, upset etc. as you empathise with the character, but here you see it as a story, so you are liking the overall experience even though there are unpleasant emotions being triggered.

What is clear is that the like/dislike isn't present in the sensory experience, it's in the emotions and thoughts. What is still not clear is whether a belief in self is needed for like/dislike. I can see that you might not take it personally that you are getting something you dislike or not getting something you like. The like / dislike thoughts / emotions arise on their own - there is no self doing liking or disliking - if there were a self in control of liking/disliking then you would choose to like everything that is happening.

Frustration arising again! LOL Feel like I'm going round in circles.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:52 pm

Ah yes, I fell for it yet again.
that's ok - so no worry - just me pointing at it, lol.
LOL Feel like I'm going round in circles.
You get the circle pretty tight by now and your observation of what happens is sound. A very good observation you made is that unpleasant must not necessarily be disliked, as in your film example.
You call it context, it can be called story too, so whether something is disliked or liked has a lot to do with how the story is made.
But then perhaps the emotions could be considered part of the experience.
Yes. Actually everything is part of experience, DOT - end of line.
It is the thought game which does the dividing into like and dislike. Good/bad, light/dark, woman/man, me/other - this is called duality, directly followed by the idea of separation.

Lets have a look at if a belief in self is needed for dislike and like.
In each thought of like or dislike is either directly an I or a hidden I.
Have a look.
Some of the thoughts involve the 'I' thought - 'This is good, I should have more of this' or 'This is bad, why am 'I' having to put up with it.' - e.g. an idea of a self that should get what 'I' want.
Good example. This is how a sensation is sorted in, step one, and step two is building up a story with more thoughts following the why and how and what by adding lots of explanations.
Have an eye on this, actually it is pretty amazing and fun.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:53 pm

Lets have a look at if a belief in self is needed for dislike and like.
In each thought of like or dislike is either directly an I or a hidden I.
Have a look.
Still looking... Want to spend a bit more time, so more tomorrow :-)

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:54 pm

Take all the time you need.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:38 pm

Hi Jadzia,

I hope you are well, and looking forward to the weekend.
Lets have a look at if a belief in self is needed for dislike and like.
In each thought of like or dislike is either directly an I or a hidden I.
Have a look.
Ok, finding this a bit tricky. So far...
Dislike and like - I think these words are often used to describe longer term preferences, so this would require ideas about a part of me / the situation that is permanent.
Looking at one given moment, there is resistance or clinging or neither. Let's say clinging is the same as resistance - you are resisting something going away. It appears that there needs to be some idea of separation for resistance to happen - a separating out of the thing/circumstance being resisted and something to be opposed to that thing. Maybe a belief in something here to be opposed to something there could be labelled a self. This all feels like theorising though, not actually seeing.
Maybe I'm struggling to see directly likes / dislikes, resistance / clinging because they are in the story only so can't be seen directly.

Thanks!

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:57 pm

Maybe I'm struggling to see directly likes / dislikes, resistance / clinging because they are in the story only so can't be seen directly.
:-), yay!
What happens if a like is fullfilled, what happens if a dislike happens?
What is found in DE?
Physical sensations called wellbeing, happiness, joy or tightness, unhappyness, sadness, frustration. All labels.

Sit for a few minutes, five or ten, and just gently watch physical sensations/feelings. There are a lot, some you'll find you can label others not.
Kindly allow thoughts to drop into the background. When you find that you are already in a story, disentangle and relax into observation.

Share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:50 pm

What happens if a like is fullfilled, what happens if a dislike happens?
What is found in DE?
Physical sensations called wellbeing, happiness, joy or tightness, unhappyness, sadness, frustration. All labels.
The words are labels, but the physical sensations themselves are not, and the different ones are different. The experience of them feels different. And some feel pleasant while others feel unpleasant. I don't think I'm getting this! The story is too strong.
Sit for a few minutes, five or ten, and just gently watch physical sensations/feelings. There are a lot, some you'll find you can label others not.
Kindly allow thoughts to drop into the background. When you find that you are already in a story, disentangle and relax into observation.
Ah, 'just sitting' meditation. Really struggling to be just in observation mode today. Have been feeling poorly all week and am weary and fed up - this is my story right now. Just sitting... what happens is lots of sensations in different places, sounds, today feelings of frustration/anger/annoyance (at not being able to concentrate), lots of thoughts about what to do later arising. Neutral sensations are easily missed. Unpleasant sensations are focused on more. Will try again tomorrow - maybe observation mode will come easier - some days it does, other days meditation is almost entirely taken up with thinking!

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:14 pm

The words are labels, but the physical sensations themselves are not, and the different ones are different. The experience of them feels different. And some feel pleasant while others feel unpleasant. I don't think I'm getting this! The story is too strong.
Physical sensations aren't all the same and yes, the first way we can label them is pleasant unpleasant. This is all ok.
Never forget thoughts are allowed to be around, they have a job to do, the difference is if one gets stuck into them or not.
Have been feeling poorly all week and am weary and fed up - this is my story right now.
Alright, nothing wrong with that.
There is a story. That's it. Like a story in a film. Why should it be different because an I appears in it and a belief is followed that this I is special, something totally different than everything else.
You never beat the story, never wanna get rid of it - it is the way you look at it! That's everything. Too easy????
Neutral sensations are easily missed.
Very good. There are lots of sensations at the same time, appearing, disappearing. Some are just sensations/neutral others are pensation/pleasant or sensation/unpleasant. This is it! Nothing more.
This is something one can watch, and then see how story is woven maybe just from one single little sensation. Just acknowledgeing, no need to change something

Now be on the look out for stories which suposedly start in the past. All these "...and it/he/she/I was always like that", or "This should have never happened again" or whatever.
Just quickly check what is really there in the moment. Just this. Not more not less. :-)

LOve,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:30 pm

Physical sensations aren't all the same and yes, the first way we can label them is pleasant unpleasant.
But even aside from the labels 'pleasant' or 'unpleasant' they 'feel' this way too )though it's a spectrum, not simply one or the other). It still feels like there is some positive or negative value here.
Alright, nothing wrong with that.
There is a story. That's it. Like a story in a film. Why should it be different because an I appears in it and a belief is followed that this I is special, something totally different than everything else.
'
It feels a bit more like it's ok that it's here today. I mean there's nothing I can do about it really. Then the story starts - 'it's ok today because there was nothing you really needed to get done... just wait until tomorrow'.
This is something one can watch, and then see how story is woven maybe just from one single little sensation. Just acknowledging, no need to change something
Yes - I see the story start off and go spiraling, and then sometimes getting stuck inside it.
Now be on the look out for stories which suposedly start in the past. All these "...and it/he/she/I was always like that", or "This should have never happened again" or whatever.
Just quickly check what is really there in the moment. Just this. Not more not less. :-)
Need to look more at this. Not much came up like this, but will be on the lookout - I think maybe some are 'hidden' as present-perfect tense - statements that say things like 'I'm rubbish at getting up in the morning' (implies always - in the past and in the future).

I think more clarity is arriving re. resistance - at times it seems clear that it's just an idea - the idea that 'I' am resisting 'that'. So maybe there is pain. And then tightening sensations/emotions come. Or maybe trying to move the body to be more comfortable. All just sensations / actions / happenings. Interpreted as resistance. Who's to say that the tightening emotion or the moving is different from the pain - or a response to it? (although there's a little voice right now trying to tell me it is). They are all just sensations and there is no 'I' controlling any of them. Even though it seems like 'I' am responsible for resisting or not resisting. And trying not to resist is just another story about resisting the resistance and you end up in a big tangle and frustrated. The idea of 'trying' is, I think, just that - another idea - it's a story about some sort of battle inside, in the head, of an 'I' trying to change what is or achieve something. When all is there is either the action/outcome happening or not.


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