Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

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DC415
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:39 pm

Warissem,

Okay here are my responses.
read the last post of yours, You deceive me David. You are just parroting what you have heard or read about consciousness, awareness, ..
This thread is about You, it is not about consciousness or awareness, why do you avoid to use “I” even you know it is a thought, a concept, it is a good tool to communicate.
You are not looking at this You. You are still disserting from what you know, from what you read in books. I am not expecting you to know about awareness, consciousness or whatever. It is not an examination. I want to make you see the TRUTH, the glimpse will last one second, two seconds, a minute, an hour, a day, a week, I don’t know. BUT YOU HAVE TO LOOK FOR YOURSELF.
First, the glimpse has happened many times, I have earnestly looked and seen through. To be honest, you are the one that rightly pointed out, there was too much "I, Me, Mine" in my responses. And I appreciated those comments and found value in writing without those words. There is an aspect of this personality that has been conditioned to please and that is seen for what it is. This pleasing is seen as it is and there is 'frustration' arising from seeing it as a thought combined with a contraction in my chest - which are no different from seeing a tree or feeling the wind of my face with the corresponding feelings that come from that experience.

The issue is not seeing the truth, it is seen many times a day. Earnestness and effort is applied to rest in awareness. And yes there still appears to be someone efforting to do this... but it seems that is a natural part of all of this - to turn the attention away from believing what is seen and seeing things as they are.... It is also true that there was intense study and reading when awakening first happened. Whether this awakening was a delusion or not - who knows yet it was clearly seen there is no one here, that there is a seeing and experiencing but there is no one experiencing it per se.

Your guidance has been helpful for me to engage the simplicity of seeing moment to moment. That said, there is also constant inquiry "who is this one experiencing this?" Again, consistently no one can be located. This is clearly seen...

That said, there is trauma in this body-mind that has not been seen through. This shows up by patterns of going into my head to try to figue things out. Again, at times this is seen for what it is - and a relaxation occurs back into pure seeing, resting as awareness. At other times there is a sense of being lost in the experience of being consumed by the experience. Something gets triggered by what appears to be happening. When this happens, I do take the time to look... who is identified and how? I investigate. What are the thoughts that are appearing? I am not good enough, I don't like myself, when am I going to get it? I look at these thoughts, are they me? When I am earnest in this looking, it is seen that thoughts come and go. Yet, there is also a felt sense of that comes with these thoughts... a contraction in my chest... or gut or solar plexus or throat. Rather than push these away, I rest with them, welcome them and let them move as they do... again, it is seen that they dissolve just as they rose.

Also, I do have a formal practice of sitting each morning and looking. And as I said, there is effort throughout the day to rest or inquire.

The reason I tried this site out because I wanted to bring in other support in my looking. I am part of a community that focuses on inquiry and regularly engage in inquiry practices and one-on-one sessions where we support each other in the inquiry process. I am not saying that as a point of pride but as a clarificaiton that I have been earnest to some degree and am deeply committed to fully recognizing the truth. Thus, I am not just reading and regurgitating things here. That said, your comments are also correct in that my mind knows too much about nonduality and that has likely influenced my responses. So your comments were helpful and have been taken in.
There is resistance to look. What do I mean by looking : using the five senses, as simple as this.
Now, read again your replies in the last post and see for yourself that all of them are thoughts : that means the words used do not point to what is, direct experience, what is known through senses. We can not deny knowing of thoughts but I said don’t go there.
That said, I agree there is still resistance to look at times. There is no doubt. I still allow conditioning to pull me away. I am not earnest enough in my looking or inquiry. I do get lazy at times and give into following thought streams or in a sense lie to myself that i am seeig clearly when I am not.

It is realized that there is never anything but direct experience. That all else is changing and not real. I have had glimpses... but my experience is that it is not embodied and there is oscillation away from it (even though I know that is an illusion). There is a sense, something needs to snap for it to stabilize. Yes, that is a thought and that must be challenged.. And there is no you that challenges that but at the same time - something must look at that to see through it... that is my understanding and maybe that is all BS or more resistance.

All I know is that the most important thing is stabilize but it appears to be a process that involves deep healing .. that clarity deepens over time and the cloud cover that appears to block the realization must be looked at - as it arises and seen through.

That is as honest as i can be... that is where i am at and I do appreciate this dialogue.

David

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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:21 am

Warissem

I wish I could have deleted my last reply LOL. I clearly see that my last post was more gibberrish. While I was attempting to share my experience - the entire thing was from mind. I do see strong defenses and resistance. You are right, your instructions are simple enough. I just need to follow them and report the best I can without complicating it.

So, I request you give me a few days. I am off to a cabin in Wisconsin through Monday. I will have internet I think but may it may take till Tuesday to see a reply. I am going to spend a number of hours each day in silence, rest and inquire. This was on the calendar months ago, so I am going to use this time well.

It does baffle me these defenses ... I know they are only thought but there is something that reacts and defends. Something that is still entranced.

Again, thank you - David

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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:54 am

Hi David

I am glad to know that you have seen that your last post is about thoughts. It is a good opportunity for you to be outside in Wisconsin and open your mind. Do the exercise, I suggested for you, with a new born mind : it means you forget all that you know about yourself, the world, awareness, … a blank mind. Do the exercise for an hour in the morning, an hour in the evening. Look at what is right here right now and report what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, sensed. At every moment during the observation, ask this “is there me seeing?” or “is there me hearing” or "is there David smelling? … And come back. It is so simple. Just give faith to what is done. During the exercise you need to be vigilant about thoughts which superimpose on
direct experience. Just let them go. Sailor Bob said "what's wrong with right now if we don't think about it."

Best wishes, warissem

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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:30 pm

Warissem,

It's been a good get away and also a bit discouraging.

I have been doing the exercise you suggested:
Do the exercise for an hour in the morning, an hour in the evening. Look at what is right here right now and report what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, sensed. At every moment during the observation, ask this “is there me seeing?” or “is there me hearing” or "is there David smelling? … And come back. It is so simple. Just give faith to what is done. During the exercise you need to be vigilant about thoughts which superimpose on direct experience
Sitting outside here has given me amble opportunity to connect with direct experience. The eyes see nature every place, the ears its sounds, the nose smells its smells, etc. Yet, the mind remains active like a magnetic force that keeps superimposing its thoughts on what is directly experienced - both on what's seen through labels (trees, sky, animal, fresh air, bird songs etc.) as well as around 'concerns' about past actions and future potentialities. In these moments, thoughts are seen as thoughts passing through yet strong feelings seem to hook to the thoughts that seem to hold them in place in awareness. I ask "to whom do these thoughts and feelings arise?"... when I look, they only appear to arise for this "me" that appears localized in the body. Yet, just as with the thoughts and feelings the body appears in my awareness as an object.

If I ask who is seeing, feeling, hearing, smelling, and tasting these things - it also comes back to a 'me' that is experiencing these things. Yet, this me can only be found in thought. That is also clearly seen.

In summary, what is appearing has nothing to do with a 'me' who appears to be experiencing. Yet, this me is not seen through completely as false or illusory. I will continue to do the exercise and inquire as you suggest.

Thank you - David

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warissem
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:29 pm

Hi David
I ask "to whom do these thoughts and feelings arise?"... when I look, they only appear to arise for this "me" that appears localized in the body. Yet, just as with the thoughts and feelings the body appears in my awareness as an object.
If I ask who is seeing, feeling, hearing, smelling, and tasting these things - it also comes back to a 'me' that is experiencing these things. Yet, this me can only be found in thought. That is also clearly seen.
In summary, what is appearing has nothing to do with a 'me' who appears to be experiencing. Yet, this me is not seen through completely as false or illusory.
You said that "me" appears localized in the body. Now, you need to discriminate between a thought and a sensation : the sentence about this "me" is a thought. It could be a sensation or a thought surimposed on a sensation. But there is no such "me" as a separate entity inhabiting your body. If it were the case you can describe it using the five senses. There is a rule you can apply when you investigate : when what we look for cannot be known through the five senses, you can be certain that it is a belief, a thought, an illusion. Example : you can think about a unicorn but you don't experience it.

You are doing good observations, Warissem

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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:20 pm

Warissem,

Your response is very helpful.
There is a rule you can apply when you investigate : when what we look for cannot be known through the five senses, you can be certain that it is a belief, a thought, an illusion. Example : you can think about a unicorn but you don't experience it.
Just to clarify - sometimes there is a very strong sensation or feeling felt in the body-mind that is very uncomfortable. It is 'down feeling' and along with it come thoughts that are some combination of being shame based, self-doubting, and negative. The sensations, while they are uncomfortable and not pleasant - are just sensational. I see they have no inherent meaning and by themselves they are not a problem. The problem comes from identifying with the negative self-judgment thoughts that get superimposed on the sensations. I still find it challenging to not glue the sensations to the superimposition - if that makes sense. It is a very strong pattern of associating these feelings/sensations with a pattern of thoughts.

This pattern shows up about once per week or so. I realize I have labeled these regularly felt sensations and feelings as 'bad' or 'unwelcomed' What I do is try to just be with the sensation by itself and not give the thoughts any more power. Yet, the sensation is 'what's happening' so I drop resistance and even take my consciousness or attention into the sensation - giving it full permission to express as it will. I then tend to note the thoughts arising and do inquiry "To whom are these thoughts arising..." or use other modalities to create space between the thoughts and sensations.

I am just wondering what you would say to that and if you have other suggestions.

Thank you - David

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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:08 pm

Hi David
“The problem comes from identifying with the negative self-judgment thoughts that get superimposed on the sensations.”
You want to resolve the problems of a person, you, that does not exist in the first place. The solution is not to resolve the details, the solution is to SEE that this person does not exist. When you want to cut a tree, you go straight away to the trunk, you don’t need to cut all the branches. There is a net of thoughts called “me” or "a person" you think you are, you need to SEE this “me” this person you think you are FOR WHAT IT IS in direct experience. I repeat this many times, you have to look for yourself, I cannot do it for you.
“This pattern shows up about once per week or so. I realize I have labeled these regularly felt sensations and feelings as 'bad' or 'unwelcomed' What I do is try to just be with the sensation by itself and not give the thoughts any more power. Yet, the sensation is 'what's happening' so I drop resistance and even take my consciousness or attention into the sensation - giving it full permission to express as it will. I then tend to note the thoughts arising and do inquiry "To whom are these thoughts arising..." or use other modalities to create space between the thoughts and sensations.”
There is no You to realize. There is no you to label things. There is no you to do or to try. There is no you to give power to thoughts. There is no you to drop resistance or take attention to whatever. There is no you to note the arising thoughts. There is no you to do the inquiry. There is no you in any shape or form, do you see it? LOOK.

There is no need to go to thoughts, to the memory to give the answers. You have to look with eyes wide open, ears wide open, all the five senses open. Relax and LOOK. There is no you.Is it true?

Warissem

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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:50 pm

Warissem,

From your email:
The truth is sometimes difficult to recognize, are you ready to continue ?
or are you giving up?
I won't give up - Have been on this path for 7 years. Once you see through the falseness - there is no going back. But what I realized is I have been unfair with you. I came here shopping for more non-duality pointings or means to break through - when I already have all I need. What has become clear is I need to be more earnest in my efforts.

And I also feel resistance that its as easy as simply seeing there is no me. I have experienced that a number of times - but the heaviness of the personal self is still there.

My last teacher said, I have no control over when or if it will even happen. All I can do is keep resting in direct experience and work on healing past traumas to help stabilize. This seems to be different from what you are saying and the apparent differences is triggering me. I need to do inquiry into that because it is really frustrating and causing suffering. I have to stop shopping and do the work to see through. You made this abundantly clear and that has been very valuable. I feel I am cornered and there is no way out other than looking at it directly.

I appreciate your help but this dialogue is just adding more to mind and is not helping. I just need to apply what i have learned and pray.

Thank you - David

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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:52 pm

Hi David
“What has become clear is I need to be more earnest in my efforts.”
Yes, it needs 100 % honesty and motivation.

“And I also feel resistance that its as easy as simply seeing there is no me. I have experienced that a number of times - but the heaviness of the personal self is still there.”
Yes, seeing no self is as simple as seeing the screen in front of you. Does the personal self have a weight or is there only a thought about heaviness of a personal self? You see, I said to you previously to do the discrimination between the appearance (known through senses) and the thought (which is not known through senses). When you apply this rule you see clearly what are appearances here now and what is driven by thoughts. By the way, look at that which knows the thoughts, is it you David? LOOK and write what you see. Does it have a shape, a color, a form ? It is so simple.
“I feel I am cornered and there is no way out other than looking at it directly.”
Yes.
“I appreciate your help but this dialogue is just adding more to mind and is not helping. I just need to apply what i have learned and pray”
The dialog is not a knowledge added to what you know. The goal of this forum is not to feed your mind about spirituality and advaita. The goal is to make you free from you, the separate self, to see that there is no you, it has never been, it will never be. LOOK there is no you, is it true?

NB : you can have a look at this video, it will be of some help for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl4Ajb7 ... Z0TEp60DeQ

Warissem

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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:02 am

Warissem,
Does the personal self have a weight or is there only a thought about heaviness of a personal self?
There is an experience in the emotional field of this body-mind of 'heaviness' - that is more sensational. That said, interpretations/thoughts add to the weight versus if it is seen as just an experience happening. After my last post, this experience emerged and I sat with this 'feeling' and discounted the emerging thoughts. It was also experienced that the 'weight' was less and the sensation passed more quickly. Not that I was trying to make it pass, that was just noticed.
look at that which knows the thoughts, is it you David? LOOK and write what you see. Does it have a shape, a color, a form ?
There appear to be certain preferences in this body-mind to pay attention to certain thoughts. Attention seems conditioned in some ways to pay attention to some thoughts versus others. But there is clearly no David having the thoughts - at this point, anyway, it does appear that this separate yet temporary body-mind pays attention to specific thoughts that form experience. There is no form color or shape to the one aware of the thoughts appearing. There is only the thought it is happening through this individual brain and person but when i look I can't find that person.

David

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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:07 pm

Hi David

1) Look at the screen : you can describe the screen, it has a form, shape, colors, ... You can even make a drawing of it.
2) Look at the thought "body" : this thought points to something called "body", you can make a drawing of a body, describe the "body thought" :its shape, form, colors, ...
3) Look at the thought "I" or "me" or "separate self" : just tell me what do you see. You don't need to think about it, it is a seeing with your five senses. There are two ways : you see something, give a description of it or you see nothing.

Warissem

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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:08 pm

Warissem,

Thank you for these inquiries, they are very potent!
1) Look at the screen : you can describe the screen, it has a form, shape, colors, ... You can even make a drawing of it.
As I first looked for this screen, great resistance showed up in the form of an intense feeling in my stomach. i decided to welcome the resistance and as I rested with it, it was clearly seen as another projection onto the screen. And I turned my attention towards the 'screen.' I could not find any form, shape or color other than a kind of 'blackness' that was seen but again, I recognize that is likely mind trying to see something. But in general there was a sense nothing was there but at the same time it feels dynamic. It is difficult to describe in the way you suggested.
2) Look at the thought "body" : this thought points to something called "body", you can make a drawing of a body, describe the "body thought" :its shape, form, colors, ...


There is no form found in reflecting on this, only images of what the body - mine and others - looks like. Just more thoughts about the concept of body. If you were to ask look at "the body" - I can see a form that appears but when I try to describe that form - again, there are only concepts that describe what it appears to be. Thus, there is nothing to draw that has any solidity, only images that describe the 'body thought.'
3) Look at the thought "I" or "me" or "separate self" : just tell me what do you see. You don't need to think about it, it is a seeing with your five senses. There are two ways : you see something, give a description of it or you see nothing.
There is a sense of a separate object seen in space or projected on the screen that exists. No different than a tree, a rock, a car, etc. But again that is only an image held in mind. As I turn back towards the screen... the best way I can describe it is that it disappears.

What is appearing out of all this is I know nothing and that all I think I know is based on nothing :). Very strange but only to the one who struggles to understand and which itself is but a thought. What the utility is in seeing all this is also unknown.

David

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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:00 pm

Hi David
What is appearing out of all this is I know nothing and that all I think I know is based on nothing :). Very strange but only to the one who struggles to understand and which itself is but a thought. What the utility is in seeing all this is also unknown.
How about the "one who struggles and which itself is but a thought". Do you mean that this one is a thought? Have you seen clearly that David is a thought? That I, me, are thoughts?

Warissem

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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:09 pm

Warissem,

First, my apologies for a delay in responding. Your question was simple enough but the goal is to bring some earnestness to your questions. There has also been some intensity in my life experience the past couple days that took a lot of attention. But here I AM!
How about the "one who struggles and which itself is but a thought". Do you mean that this one is a thought? Have you seen clearly that David is a thought? That I, me, are thoughts?
Your question had me look at this deeply. I have no resistance to seeing that "David" is a thought - any use of I, me are thoughts - yes. As this inquiry goes on, it appears identification is thinning away. It is hard to describe. I was driving the other day and all of a sudden, I could not find the one driving, driving was just happening. Yes, just an experience recounted but wanted to share that.

As I said, a lot of interpersonal intensity has been surrounding me the past couple days. There is clearly something being irritated by it all but there is also a sense of something unaffected by any of it.

So I am having glimpses, again - of no one being here but at the same time something experiencing being here. It's hard to articulate.

David

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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:46 pm

Hi David

Glad to hear from you and see that you are clear about this seeing no self.
First, my apologies for a delay in responding. Your question was simple enough but the goal is to bring some earnestness to your questions.
You are welcome, anyway it is your inquiry.
There has also been some intensity in my life experience the past couple days that took a lot of attention. But here I AM!
It is not Your life, it is life itself.
Your question had me look at this deeply. I have no resistance to seeing that "David" is a thought - any use of I, me are thoughts - yes.
Great, there is clarity about this. But you can continue to use “I”, “me”, … for the need of communication.
As this inquiry goes on, it appears identification is thinning away. It is hard to describe. I was driving the other day and all of a sudden, I could not find the one driving, driving was just happening. Yes, just an experience recounted but wanted to share that.
Nice having shared the experience. Really, there is no one driving the show. You made a good observation.
As I said, a lot of interpersonal intensity has been surrounding me the past couple days. There is clearly something being irritated by it all but there is also a sense of something unaffected by any of it.
Good. This intensity has been surrounding but there is no one to be surrounded. You have already seen that “me” is a thought, haven’t you?
So I am having glimpses, again - of no one being here but at the same time something experiencing being here. It's hard to articulate.
Yes, there is no one being here. You said “at the same time something experiencing being here.” Let’s explore this :

there is experience, yes.
there is a knowing of this experience, yes.
the experience and the knowing of it come at once and are not separated.
there is no you experiencing, a thought cannot have experiences.

Are there any doubts at all about seeing through the illusion of self?

Feel free to discuss all what is coming up about the seeing of no self.


Best wishes, Warissem


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