Where else is it hiding?

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:36 am

Hi Peter,
V: What do you do exactly in order to think?
P: The attention is on thought(s). Verbal or visual. There are only few experiences of senses available when attention is on thoughts. It is very absorbing.
OK, but you didn’t really reply to the question.

The everyday belief is that “I am thinking”, “I am the thinker of my thoughts” – so this is what I’m asking you to investigate.

What do you do exactly in order to think?


If you are the thinker of thoughts, then replying to this question should be super easy.
They just appear. I found 3 sources of the thoughts.

1. Some external sensation like a sound or something seen

2. Mind-wandering when one thought generates another one

3. Some persistent emotion which seems to repeatedly bring thoughts about previous situation typically
The thing is that these points are coming from logical conclusion, and not looking at experience directly, not looking at the thinking process as it is, but rather making conclusions based on cause and effect.
1. Some external sensation like a sound or something seen
Let’s see what happens here.
There is a sound.
Then this sound is followed by a thought.
The thought might be ABOUT the sound.

But this doesn’t mean that the thought is made by the sound.
The only thing that is actually there:
A sound, which is followed by a thought – that’s all.

But where does that thought ABOUT the sound is coming from?
Is there a storage place of thoughts, where you go to, and pick and choose the thought you want to think about the sound?

What do you do exactly for a thought about a sound to appear?

2. Mind-wandering when one thought generates another one
Are you sure that a thought can generate another thought?

Can you observe a thought (literally) generating another one?
Or rather this is just a logical conclusion, based on the fact that one thought follows another?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:32 pm

Hi Vivien,
OK, but you didn’t really reply to the question.

The everyday belief is that “I am thinking”, “I am the thinker of my thoughts” – so this is what I’m asking you to investigate.

What do you do exactly in order to think?
Oh right thank you. I tried to investigate but I can’t find anything I’m doing to think. It’s very tricky to look at this. It seems I can look at this process only after it happens. I can not identify any moment of deciding to think. It almost feels like to appear and happen like sensations. Hm.
The thing is that these points are coming from logical conclusion, and not looking at experience directly, not looking at the thinking process as it is, but rather making conclusions based on cause and effect.
Oh true. This is not direct observation but a logical conclusion. I have not experienced this directly. True!
But where does that thought ABOUT the sound is coming from?
Is there a storage place of thoughts, where you go to, and pick and choose the thought you want to think about the sound?
I have no idea where it comes from. It just appears. I do not experience any storage or selection or decision about that. Yes they appear one after another and it’s only logic and thinking which comes with idea they are linked.
Are you sure that a thought can generate another thought?

Can you observe a thought (literally) generating another one?
Or rather this is just a logical conclusion, based on the fact that one thought follows another?
Yes I see it now. That was thinking not direct immediate experience.

Thanks,Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:15 am

Hi Peter,
Oh true. This is not direct observation but a logical conclusion. I have not experienced this directly. True!
Yes, this is important. We always look at direct experience, and not our interpretation about this.

This inquiry is about questioning the validity of our interpretations, thoughts, assumptions by checking if they are in line with experience.
Oh right thank you. I tried to investigate but I can’t find anything I’m doing to think. It’s very tricky to look at this. It seems I can look at this process only after it happens. I can not identify any moment of deciding to think. It almost feels like to appear and happen like sensations. Hm.
Yes :)

Thoughts are not our doing. They happen just as any other phenomena.
But please don’t believe me, check it for yourself by looking at experience.

Try an experiment.

Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?

What is making thoughts to appear?

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:45 pm

Hi Vivien,
Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?
I don’t know how. I can easily get caught in loop of thinking observing and meta thinking. It’s like chasing own tail. Closest I get is to wait and observe some thought to appear on its own. Seemingly out of nowhere.
Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
Yes. That I can see. Sometimes more rapidly and sometimes less.
What is making thoughts to appear?
I do not find any making process. Just by direct observation I do not see it happen. So I can’t tell from direct observation.
Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?
I don’t know how to do it. I only observe the thought once it appears but that is too late. I don’t know how to know about it before it appears.

Thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:35 am

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your reply.

Here is an exercise that can help to look at the thought-phenomenon more closely.

Sit down, close your eyes, and think of a car.

How does the visual thought of a car arrive? Is there a you doing it?
Is there any doing for an image of a car to appear?
What does make that happen?

Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of cars are stored, and the self goes there and chooses and picks which one it wants to think of?

If not, how does that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared?
What is being done EXACTLY for that happen? Is there any doing at all? Or it’s just happening on its own?

Is there an I which chooses of the color?
What is being done exactly to the car to be a certain color?
Is the appearing color a doing or a happening?

And what about its size and brand? Is the size and the brand was done or made to appear by a me? Or it’s just appeared without anything or anyone making it to happen?

Is there a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a car?


Please repeat this exercise several times a day. Also experiment with other objects, life imagining an apple, a flower, a cup, etc.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:47 pm

Hi Vivien,
How does the visual thought of a car arrive? Is there a you doing it?
Is there any doing for an image of a car to appear?
What does make that happen?
The thought simply appears. There is no effort, doing, intervention. Thought appears basically complete. Done. As done it just appears out of nowhere. I'm saying "done" because it is done as a complete thought, there is no additional making needed. I'm not doing it and I do not see any process of doing. I do not see what does make that happen. So I cannot tell from observation. The thought is on its own.
Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of cars are stored, and the self goes there and chooses and picks which one it wants to think of?
No storage at all. No selection process. I do not experience any picking, selecting or viewing options. Just logically (I know I shouldn't :) it can't happen that would be already thought. But there is something similar going on I describe later.
If not, how does that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared?
It simply appear out of nowhere, it is under attention for a moment and then it's gone. Why that particular one appeared I don't know. There is nothing in my experience to tell.
What is being done EXACTLY for that happen? Is there any doing at all? Or it’s just happening on its own?
It's happening on its own. If there is a memory (thought) "I should do this exercise about car", next comes image of the car. Complete thought. There is no doing, it is like a flow, the "I" is watching. Like an unstoppable stream.
Is there an I which chooses of the color?
What is being done exactly to the car to be a certain color?
Is the appearing color a doing or a happening?
This is very interesting - how decision making is an illusion. There is a visual thought of a car. It is complete thought, but it may not be complete "car image". For example it may not have color. So there is a thought "what is color of this car?" and after that series of thoughts appear out of nowhere "red", "green", "blue". This if not observed very closely seems to create illusion of decision. Some of these colors "thoughts" are accompanied by tension in body. Finally some color X is without tension and there is thought "car has color of X". Decision comes as a thought out of nowhere. Like any other thought.

I hope I'm not conceptualizing this, but I feel I described the process how I really observed it.
And what about its size and brand? Is the size and the brand was done or made to appear by a me? Or it’s just appeared without anything or anyone making it to happen?
Either it appears out of nowhere or some "fake" decision happens like aforementioned.
Is there a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a car?
I cannot find any doer - any I doing these thoughts, making them. Closest is this sense of "observation". Which feels passive.

Thanks Vivien for an interesting exercise,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:12 am

Hi Peter,

You did a really nice investigation. :)

Is there anything that does not happen automatically?
Is there anything that needs your doing? Or everything is just happening?

What do you do in order to be?

What do you do in order to see?
What do you do in order to hear?
What do you do in order to feel?
What do you do in order to taste and smell?

What do you do for thoughts to be?

What do you do in order for the body to be?


Please investigate each questions thoroughly many times throughout the day.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:39 pm

Hi Vivien,
Is there anything that does not happen automatically?
Well other than experience of senses and thoughts, I can look at actions of body. This is interesting how does it happen. There is a thought to move finger and then there are sensations of finger moving. I do not see any direct control of finger muscles or any thought or other experiences telling to muscles how to move. It is like magic. There are thoughts of both index finger moving. There is a visual thought of movement (e.g. move in circles). Then there is movement happening. Feels a bit unreal(?) at times when observing this.

Other than movement, I can look at attention. This is a bit tricky to observe directly. I cannot identify anything what to call attention and it seems attention is a thought only. There are some experiences which are clear and vivid with more details and some which are not. There may be a thought about sound ("what is that sound?"). Then there is a clearer, louder, more vivid experience of sound. Or the experiences appear on their own without any thought in-between. There is however no choosing, no doing of "I".

I cannot find anything else not happening automatically or what would be good to inspect as there could be suspicion of not happening automatically. I feel a bit more "afloat" or "Hanging in the air" now after these observations. But it is interesting that even now after seeing all that happening automatically. A thought. A decision. A movement. When it is happening there is still some feeling of "ownership" and there are glimpses of the automation. Even stronger and longer. There is still overarching "control" feeling present. The thought of "I". When it appears, there is a little contraction feeling in the stomach. But at times I feel "afloat" and even "falling" feeling in the body. Weird feeling.
Is there anything that needs your doing? Or everything is just happening?
I cannot find anything that needs doing. It seems all happening on its own.
What do you do in order to be?
Nothing. I cannot spot anything to do to be, not be, start being, stop being, pause being.
What do you do in order to see?
It is just happening. I cannot stop seeing. Even with closed eyes I can still see light on eyelids. I do nothing for it to happen.
What do you do in order to hear?
What do you do in order to feel?
Same as sight. With hearing even more prominent I cannot turn it off. I do nothing to "hear". Sounds simply appear, hang out and disappear. Same with touch.
What do you do in order to taste and smell?
These senses are somewhat weaker. But it's a same story. I cannot find anything I'm doing to smell or taste.
What do you do for thoughts to be?
Thoughts appear. Hang out. Disappear. I do not choose them. I do not destroy them. They can be hear short time or longer time. I do not see any control.
What do you do in order for the body to be?
Bodily sensations are just there as other experiences. Hunger, pain in stomach, itching, tension, pleasant relaxed feeling. Appear and disappear. I do not see anything I'm doing or any making of those sensations.

Thank you for inspiring questions. Not sure if I spent enough time with them today as you meant. I want to make sure this is as effective as it can be.

Thanks, Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:38 am

Hi Peter,

You did a nice investigation :)

Now let’s look at the phenomenon, called ‘Peter’.

How do you know that you are ‘Peter’?

Notice the feeling called 'feels like I am Peter’.
Stay with this feeling, be with it like it's some new phenomenon for which you have no name.

What do you discover about the feeling, as a feeling only?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:41 pm

Hi Vivien,

you are asking hard questions. :)
How do you know that you are ‘Peter’?
Well if there is a thought "what's my name?", then there is another thought "Peter is my name" after that. I know I'm Peter because there is a thought a memory, that I'm Peter. There are many memories/thoughts about me being called Peter by other people. There is no other experience, which would tell me that I'm "Peter" as far as I can tell. Only thoughts - memories.
Notice the feeling called 'feels like I am Peter’.
Stay with this feeling, be with it like it's some new phenomenon for which you have no name.What do you discover about the feeling, as a feeling only?
This is really tricky and hard. There seems to be thought component "I'm Peter". I may be mistaken, but I feel there may be also emotional component. If I'm right I can't quite spot what is the emotion. It is subtle.

But there are also other similar thoughts about other people, animals and objects which call them names and differentiate them from everything else. So it does not seem to be a completely unique. Some thoughts of other people have emotional component. There is for example contraction in body, so I suspect that emotion I can't put my finger on is there.

I spent lot of time today on this, but it is very subtle.

Thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:40 am

Hi Peter,
then there is another thought "Peter is my name" after that
Yes, but Peter isn’t just a name, is it?

Peter is a person with a personality, with certain characteristics, behaviours, familiar feelings and emotions, the feeling of looking out the eyes, facial expressions, a certain gait, the way you walk, postures, gestures, tone of voice, accent, etc.

Just notice the habitual facial expressions Peter has.
Are those facial expressions you?
Are the habitual behaviours ‘of Peter’, you?
Is the gait of the body, and how the body walks, you?
Are the habitual postures, you?
Is the tone of your voice, you?
Are the thoughts ‘in the head’, you?


Please investigate each of the above carefully.
I know I'm Peter because there is a thought a memory, that I'm Peter.
So with a thought-memory there is a narrative about Peter, right?

Are you the narrative ‘of Peter’?
Are you the memory ‘of Peter’?

There seems to be thought component "I'm Peter". I may be mistaken, but I feel there may be also emotional component.
Yes, definitely there are emotional components to ‘being Peter’.

What are the most common emotions and feelings that often comes up?
Just notice them, and investigate if those familiar and habitual feelings and emotions are you.

But there are also other similar thoughts about other people, animals and objects which call them names and differentiate them from everything else. So it does not seem to be a completely unique. Some thoughts of other people have emotional component.
Aren’t thoughts about others and objects are part of the narrative of Peter?
(as Peter’s opinions, interpretations, judgements, feelings about others, animals and objects)

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:57 pm

Hi Vivien,
Peter is a person with a personality, with certain characteristics, behaviours, familiar feelings and emotions, the feeling of looking out the eyes, facial expressions, a certain gait, the way you walk, postures, gestures, tone of voice, accent, etc
Oh I see. Yes, I see what you mean and yes things like these and more constitutes "Peter".
Are those facial expressions you?
Are the habitual behaviours ‘of Peter’, you?
Is the gait of the body, and how the body walks, you?
Are the habitual postures, you?
Is the tone of your voice, you?
Are the thoughts ‘in the head’, you?
This is a bit hard to explore. I mean to catch during the day that now this action, words, movement, thought is part of "Peter" narrative. What is and what is not. Hard to catch. I do not think I was able to do this. Frankly it is a bit frustrating.

Of course generally, no they are not me. Although I feel I say it more from "thinking" rather than from "seeing". I was not able to catch during the day and investigate "now this body posture/tone of voice is part of what I consider be Peter".
Are you the narrative ‘of Peter’? Are you the memory ‘of Peter’?
No, I'm not a narrative of Peter. I see I have my own narrative for myself, but even from the memory I have a bit harder time to be specific. I understand other people have a narrative of who is Peter and everyone has different one. I'm none of those narratives. Also I have stories for who other people are. I can see how those are just thoughts too.
What are the most common emotions and feelings that often comes up?
Just from the memory, I can say some occasional social anxiety, some occasional habitual frustration towards some family members, passion for certain hobbies, love for my kids and wife and so on.
Just notice them, and investigate if those familiar and habitual feelings and emotions are you.
I couldn't catch any today during the day. Maybe because I was home alone mostly working and busy? I was wrestling with these questions a bit. I think only now I realize I was supposed to look for which of the experiences are part of my narrative.
Aren’t thoughts about others and objects are part of the narrative of Peter? (as Peter’s opinions, interpretations, judgements, feelings about others, animals and objects)
Maybe some are. I'm not sure I see how feeling about someone else - for example fear of a bully is part of my narrative/self-view.

Thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:20 am

Hi Peter,
This is a bit hard to explore. I mean to catch during the day that now this action, words, movement, thought is part of "Peter" narrative. What is and what is not. Hard to catch. I do not think I was able to do this. Frankly it is a bit frustrating.
OK, let’s break it down into smaller parts.

Just sit, and pay attention to the sensations of your face. Feel your face.
Make all sorts of facial expressions. Play with it.
And as you do it and feel your face, inquire:
Is this facial expressions me?

As you sit there, take up all sorts of positions and postures, and inquire:
Is this posture, me?

Now start to speak. Say something.
Is this voice, me?
Are these words me?


Say the word out lout “me”.
Is this word me? Is this sound me?

Now say the word ‘Peter’.
Is this word me? Is this sound me?

Now, close your eyes, and just observe as thoughts come and go, and inquire:
Are these thoughts me?

Now think the thought “I” and then the thought of 'Peter'.
Is this thought me?

Then bring up a memory and just notice the mental images.
Is this image me?

Experiment with all sort of memories. Recent memories like what happened this morning, what happened a week ago, a month ago, a year ago, a decade ago, and memories of your childhood.
Can you find any memory that is Peter himself?

Then imagine Peter in the future.
Is that image, me?

Please experiment with these several times during the day.
I'm not sure I see how feeling about someone else - for example fear of a bully is part of my narrative/self-view.
Who is the one that feels in a certain way about someone? – Me.
Who is the one who has an opinion about someone? – Me.
Who is that has a relationship with other? – Me.

Everything is about me. Even others. Since I am the one who sees others this or that way. I am the one who judges others to be nice or not nice. I am the one who likes on person but not the other. I am the one who has different feelings and emotions to different people.

I am the center of my world, my universe.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:52 pm

Hi Vivien,

thank you for your patience and diligence. These questions worked for me much better.
Is this facial expressions me?
Now I see it. Movements of the face, sensations of movements or thoughts about those movements are not me.
Is this posture, me?
This is probably easiest to see. Not me. Although there are thoughts about those postures being "mine". There is thought of "me" who "owns" those postures and does them. When I notice that I can see they are happening on their own.
Now start to speak. Say something.
Is this voice, me?
Are these words me?
No. This voice, sounds are not me. Words are not me. Again some "feeling" of "me doing this" can appear.

But it is not automatic to see that it is a mistake. I need to notice that ownership thought and when I look I do notice it is happening on its own. But it requires some effort. Default is "my" voice, "my" posture.
Say the word out lout “me”.
Is this word me? Is this sound me?
No again. The word "me" is not me nor the sounds. It is same as any other word or sounds. Any other sensation.
Now say the word ‘Peter’.
Is this word me? Is this sound me?
Now this is more interesting. Word "Peter" is not me. The sounds also are not me. When I said "Me, Peter X", where X is my surname, this was most strongly creating a feeling of "me". There was an emotion of light anxiety attached to that. Little tension in the body. Like if someone would in a quiet room loudly same my name among many people all listening. For some reason there is an emotion and little stress. But I see none of that is me. Not the words, not the sounds, not the emotion.
Now, close your eyes, and just observe as thoughts come and go, and inquire:
Are these thoughts me?

Now think the thought “I” and then the thought of 'Peter'.
Is this thought me?
No not me. Thoughts, any thoughts, are not me. They are as any other sensations. Coming and going.
Then bring up a memory and just notice the mental images.
Is this image me?

Experiment with all sort of memories. Recent memories like what happened this morning, what happened a week ago, a month ago, a year ago, a decade ago, and memories of your childhood.
Can you find any memory that is Peter himself?
These was easy to see is not me. There is not any mistake.
Then imagine Peter in the future.
Is that image, me?
Same here, easy to see it is not me.

With some of these during the day, there could be a thought of ownership. Someone "me" owns this facial expression. Facial expression is not me, but I own it. Sometimes it was not present.
Everything is about me. Even others. Since I am the one who sees others this or that way. I am the one who judges others to be nice or not nice. I am the one who likes on person but not the other. I am the one who has different feelings and emotions to different people.

I am the center of my world, my universe.
I see, yes I see it now. True that most of thinking is around "me". What "I" like, dislike, want, don't want etc. Every moment relating everything to "me".

Thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:39 am

Hi Peter,

You did a nice investigation.
Now this is more interesting. Word "Peter" is not me. The sounds also are not me. When I said "Me, Peter X", where X is my surname, this was most strongly creating a feeling of "me". There was an emotion of light anxiety attached to that. Little tension in the body. Like if someone would in a quiet room loudly same my name among many people all listening. For some reason there is an emotion and little stress. But I see none of that is me. Not the words, not the sounds, not the emotion.
So is it possible that you’ve identified with words, sounds and emotions, believing them to be you, in most of your life?
With some of these during the day, there could be a thought of ownership. Someone "me" owns this facial expression. Facial expression is not me, but I own it.
OK, let’s look into this.

We often say ‘MY body’ – so what is it that owns the body?
And how do you know that the body is owned?
What is it that claims ‘MY body’?

You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?
Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?
Do thoughts own the clothes?
Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the clothes?
Does word/thought Peter owns the clothes?
Does the label on clothes own the clothes?

Does the label ‘my’ owns the body?
Does the label/word/thought Peter owns the body?

With some of these during the day, there could be a thought of ownership.
Is a thought ABOUT ownership, is an actual ownership?
Is there actual owing going behind those words, or those are just empty words, pointing no actual ownership at all?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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