Ready to Go

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
AndrewS
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:01 am

Hi Vivien,
In the past you said things like: “I am the mind”.
Is this still how you perceive yourself to be? Are you the mind?
No. That one just fell away once it was looked at. It’s strange now looking and seeing it clearly doesn't point to anything.
How and what do you perceive yourself to be exactly?
I can’t find anything when I look. Which some part is having trouble accepting. But when I don’t look there is a sense of being here, it’s defined by sensations. It’s defined by what it’s not. Attention or awareness of what is happening. It moves about but there seems to be a tether that draws it back to the head and thoughts.
Do you perceive that you are the thinker of thoughts?
Generally the impression is I am the thinker, or there is an acceptance of what is thought. But when I look, I can't find a thinker or where thoughts come from or go.
Do you perceive that you are the feeler of feelings, emotions and sensations?
When I look, I can't find a feeler, just feelings. But in general the impression is I am the feeler.
Are you the one who is hearing sounds?
Once again, when I look I can't find a hearer, but the general non-looking state reverts to me being the hearer.
Are you the one looking out the eyes form inside and seeing the world out there?
When looked for, there is no see-er, but it seems like the combination of all the senses when attention isn't being paid props up the idea of there being someone here.
A: It occurred to me this morning that there is a belief in a "self" and anything that can be is used to support that belief. And recently, “I don’t get it” has been coming up. Which is funny, that "I" that doesn't get it just points to more sensations. There's no one to get nothing.
V: Is this something you clearly see experientially, or rather this is just an intellectual understanding?
Sorry, up until the last sentence I could see, but "There's no one to get nothing" is an intellectual leap.

We've been at this a long time, and when we started you asked me to look for the self and I've been doing that. It seems there's a growing acceptance that there's nothing to be found. And the only real expectation at this moment is that there will be a recognition of something, but a voice is going "Why is this taking so long? What am I not getting?" Every time "I" is used in thought and there is an awareness, I try to find that "I", but there's nothing. "I" seems to latch on to anything sensation-wise in my body and say "here I am" until looked at. Knower, needer, controller, owner. Does every label need to be looked at?

Anyway, looking now for who needs to "know".

Thank you,

Andrew

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 8452
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:23 am

Hi Andrew,
We've been at this a long time, and when we started you asked me to look for the self and I've been doing that. It seems there's a growing acceptance that there's nothing to be found. And the only real expectation at this moment is that there will be a recognition of something, but a voice is going "Why is this taking so long? What am I not getting?" Every time "I" is used in thought and there is an awareness, I try to find that "I", but there's nothing. "I" seems to latch on to anything sensation-wise in my body and say "here I am" until looked at. Knower, needer, controller, owner. Does every label need to be looked at?
The time it takes to see through the illusion can differ a lot. Please be patient. If you are persistent enough, sooner or later you will be able to see through it.

Let’s try out something else. For some people, there is a temporary state of being the watcher or the witness of whatever is happening. This is not the full realization of there being no separate self, but it could be a useful temporary landing point.

So my suggestion is to try out this route. It could help to acknowledge and discover what you are not, by shrinking the identification from the body-mind to a witness or watcher or noticer. Doesn’t matter how we call it.

And from here it could be easer to see that you are not even the witness.

So what do you think? Are you in?
Generally the impression is I am the thinker, or there is an acceptance of what is thought. But when I look, I can't find a thinker or where thoughts come from or go.
I would like to ask you to watch or notice thoughts throughout the day. For now, you don’t have to be bothered with who or what is watching, just be a silent witness to all thoughts that appear.

At first, it might be a bit difficult, but the more you do it the easier it gets, just as any skill. Actually, it’s a skill that can be learned.

So for the following days your only task is to watch thoughts from a distance. Just to notice them as they come and go. Don’t do anything with them. Don’t try to cling to them or push them away. Just silently watch them.

Notice as many thoughts as possible in your daily life.
Let me know what happens.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
AndrewS
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:05 am

Hi Vivien,

Yes, I'm in!

Thank you for your guidance as always. I'll report back in a few days.

~Andrew

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 8452
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:27 am

Great! :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
AndrewS
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:24 pm

Hi Vivien,
So for the following days your only task is to watch thoughts from a distance. Just to notice them as they come and go. Don’t do anything with them. Don’t try to cling to them or push them away. Just silently watch them.

Notice as many thoughts as possible in your daily life.
Let me know what happens.
OK. So I’m not sure if I an doing it properly, but my experience was consistently this: I’d become aware of a thought and kind of step outside it to observe the thought, then the thought would kind of “freeze” in mid flow and disappear. Any associated physical sensations would pass as well once the thought had gone. This was true of verbal and visual thoughts. Then immediately another thought would come to replace it, often something like, “Am I doing this right? It’s a little difficult to witness thoughts if they keep disappearing.”

The thoughts are always coming, but there is a deeper appreciation/understanding of their unreality. Nothing else “dies and disappears” when attention is removed from it.

Thank you,
Andrew

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 8452
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:45 am

Hi Andrew,
This was true of verbal and visual thoughts. Then immediately another thought would come to replace it, often something like, “Am I doing this right? It’s a little difficult to witness thoughts if they keep disappearing.”
But this is exactly that needs to be seen. That thoughts are not static live entities, but rather fleeting unsubstantial phenomena.

Have you noticed that there are gaps between thoughts?

This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 5-10 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how it goes.

Vivien

(ps: I'm sending you a private message, so please watch out for it).
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
AndrewS
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:26 am

Hi Vivien,

Hope as is well. I'm just writing to say, there is nothing to really write about which is why I haven't.

Just looking, which seems to be more focused, and witnessing which doesn't seem to be getting any easier. Not finding much in the way of self other than sensations and thoughts, there has been some irritability and anger surfacing whenever I ask for the self to "reveal" itself, so letting that do it's thing.

Anyway, just letting you know I'm not dead yet.

Andrew

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 8452
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:46 am

Hi Andrew,
there has been some irritability and anger surfacing whenever I ask for the self to "reveal" itself, so letting that do it's thing.
But how could a non-existing entity reveal itself? It’s like asking for the non-existent unicorn in your room to reveal itself. No way not to be frustrated. Since this non-existent unicorn will never ever reveal itself. Since what does not exist in reality, cannot reveal itself. And idea cannot reveal itself. You are talking to a phantom. To an imagined ghost who is not there.

Another analogy would be like to ask Santa to reveal itself. Would that ever happen? Would a real Santa ever appear showing that it exists?

How can you look for something that is just an imagination?

It’s not about looking for something that doesn’t exists in reality.
Rather it’s about NOTICING what is here now in reality.

Discovering that there is no separate self other than an idea happens by seeing what IS here.

So is there an I here now in this very moment?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
AndrewS
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:15 am

Hi Vivien,
“Is there an I here now in this very moment?”
I’ve been looking with that question everyday since you posted it and no. “I” doesn’t appear to point to anything any more when looked at. But there is something. Being, presence, awareness, hereness.

Things seem to be becoming clearer, it’s a very slow process, I guess that’s just how it is. And things are falling away too, things that used to upset “me” no longer do. Things that used to consume my attention have stopped doing so. Thankfully so. It’s easier to recognize thoughts and step back from them.
How can you look for something that is just an imagination?
I understand what you mean. That was just a phase and has passed. Now whenever an “I” thought arises, I just replace “I” with “who” and look for what it points to. Usually a sensation or feeling or nothing. Just a thinking habit.
It’s not about looking for something that doesn’t exists in reality.
Rather it’s about NOTICING what is here now in reality.

Discovering that there is no separate self other than an idea happens by seeing what IS here.
I get overwhelmed by all the things that are here. Sights, sounds, sensations, feelings, thoughts. There always seems to be too much to take every thing in. Maybe taking everything in isn’t necessary, but even at night in the dark the body alone is a massive source of sensation. Not that the sensations claim to be me. But something claims them as mine or rather the body as mine and the feelings are of the body. The body needs protecting. And if “I’m” not here. Who will protect it?

How do I see through that?

Hope you’re having a good Holiday season.

Thank you,

Andrew

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 8452
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:53 am

Hi Andrew,
It’s easier to recognize thoughts and step back from them.
Step back from thoughts?
Is there someone or something separate form thoughts, who is performing the act of stepping back from that?
Or is this just another thought in the story of Andrew?
I get overwhelmed by all the things that are here. Sights, sounds, sensations, feelings, thoughts. There always seems to be too much to take every thing in.
Too much? Who is saying that? A thought?

So a thought appears “it’s too much to take in everything”… so this is just another thought taken for granted. But thoughts always can be questioned… there is no need to believe every single thought :)
Maybe taking everything in isn’t necessary,
Yes, why would it? :)

And is there someone here taking or not taking in everything?

Is there someone separate from what is happening, so this someone is standing aside from experience and trying to take it in?
Or is this just another thought on behalf of an imagined me?
But even at night in the dark the body alone is a massive source of sensation. Not that the sensations claim to be me. But something claims them as mine or rather the body as mine and the feelings are of the body.
Is there actually something claiming the body to be mine?... or… this is just another un-investigated thought?
Is there anything else, other than a thought, claiming that the body is mine?
The body needs protecting. And if “I’m” not here. Who will protect it?
How do you know that the body needs protecting?
Just because a thought says that the body needs protecting, is that true?

What does the body need to be protected from in the middle of the night?
Is the body in actual, real danger?

Or all danger just imagined?
And are appearing only in a form of mental images, like an imagined mind movie?

Can you see that the threat is not real?

That the body is totally safe while it’s lying in the bed…
also...
the body is totally safe during the day too, right?
And if “I’m” not here. Who will protect it?
Do you thing that the body is currently being protected by an I?
How do you know this?

How do you know that the body is being protected by an I?
Or this is just another thought taken for granted?

Look… there has never ever been an I. There is no I here now. It has never been, and never will be.
It doesn’t matter what thoughts say, that doesn’t change the fact, that the I is just a myth.
It has never been more than a myth. Never ever.

So the body is NOT being protected by an I.
A myth cannot protect the body.
A concept cannot protect the body.
The body is fine both with and without the belief in an I.
A belief doesn’t change anything. It has no power.

How do I see through that?
It’s always about questioning your thoughts. Every suffering comes from believing thoughts. Every single one. There is no suffering without believing a thought or a mental image.

Am I safe right now?
Is it safe right now?
Other than what I am thinking and believing, am I OK?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests