Halfway there?

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Vivien
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:09 am

You mentioned before that you are replying on your phone. There is a free application that some guides use successfully, but I've never used it myself.

You can try it out, it might be easier to reply with that app.

It's called tapatalk

I hope it helps,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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awakeningbk
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:00 pm

Hi Vivien

Thank you for the recommendation with the app! Thankfully, when I don’t have to do too much extensive copying and pasting, it’s easy to do on my device. It was just for that giant compilation of questions that was difficult.

I reread our entire correspondence once more just to focus closely again on the things you’ve been advising me to. The exercise of doing this during the day was, frankly, hard - there was a lot of effort to be mindful, but thoughts kept coming up and believing them kept happening - getting absorbed in the movie. I can understand why consistency is key in this process, though I am glad I got to spend those days with my relative while she was on her deathbed. But I’m now determined to finish this and keep the focus tight.

I also could see a glimmer of “process”, for lack of a better word. I think this might be what they mean by unity? It’s not so much that “I” am a fixed and separate entity, but that breathing is happening, digestion is happening, and on a slower scale - aging is happening, dying is happening. For younger people (“processes”?) - growing is happening. But it’s all just... Events? Happenings? But not fixed things or categories? It’s almost like there is a beautiful metaphor with the breath in “everything”.

Am I on the right track? This is what it has seemed to me, while trying to pay attention yesterday. Again though - thoughts happened, believing happened, getting caught up in thoughts and the internal movie happened.

Anyway - to your questions:
When walking, what do you do in order for the legs to move?
Are you making walking happen, or it just happens automatically and effortlessly?
Walking just occurs - there is no decision making involved. No one saying “now it is time to walk” and pulling the levers to make it happen, so to speak.
When you sit down, or stand up, is this something you do, or something that is happening?
No - it just happens.
Notice all sorts of sensations in the body.
Are you making the sensations happen, or they are there, without anyone or anything making them to be?
Sensations just occur, no one makes them happen.
When breathing happens, are you making it to happen, or it happens automatically without anyone making it happen?
Breathing just occurs - no one is making it happen.
When preparing food, or eating, washing your hands, typing, brushing your teeth, dressing up, are you making the hands move, or the hands just move by themselves?
The hands just move by themselves
Is there a central controller somewhere in the body, from where strings are pulled to lift the arms, and move the body? Or all of it just happening automatically?
No one, no where at all. It all just happens automatically

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Vivien
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:30 am

Hi awakeningbk,
It’s not so much that “I” am a fixed and separate entity, but that breathing is happening, digestion is happening, and on a slower scale - aging is happening, dying is happening. For younger people (“processes”?) - growing is happening. But it’s all just... Events? Happenings?
Yes, everything is just happening.

Check this out for yourself.

Is there anything (without exception) that doesn’t happen on its own?
What do you do for things to happen?
What do you do to be?
Am I on the right track? This is what it has seemed to me, while trying to pay attention yesterday. Again though - thoughts happened, believing happened, getting caught up in thoughts and the internal movie happened.
Yes, but it’s important that you don’t come to this by thinking it through and making an intellectual conclusion that everything is just happening, but rather you SEE it in experience that everything is happening automatically.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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awakeningbk
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:44 am

Is there anything (without exception) that doesn’t happen on its own?
Oh! Oh! Oh!! Nothing happens on it’s own! No!! Nothing at all!!

(Side note: Vivien - I wrote this this morning, and I feel like I had a realization. But as I went through my day trying to pay attention, I was unable to maintain this point of view. I could see that - yes, everything was deeply interconnected. I could see that nothing happens on it’s own, which opened up a level of understanding. I tried to heed your advice and really just see it for myself.... But I still got caught up in the stories arising. I still got caught up in separateness - a lot, to be honest)
What do you do for things to happen?
Nothing. Things happen on their own, they just occur without someone ‘pulling the levers’ so to speak.
What do you do to be?
There is no one there to do anything to be. There just IS!

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Vivien
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:18 am

Hi awakeningbk,
Oh! Oh! Oh!! Nothing happens on it’s own! No!! Nothing at all!!
Nice investigation :)
But as I went through my day trying to pay attention, I was unable to maintain this point of view.
And who or what is it that is trying to maintain this point of view?
What or who is it that had this realization?
Does this realization happened to someone?
But I still got caught up in the stories arising. I still got caught up in separateness - a lot, to be honest)
And what or who is it that can be caught up in the stories?

Do you expect that after seeing through the illusion, the illusion will stop?
Or it never ever be believed again?
I still got caught up in separateness - a lot, to be honest
Please describe to me this sense of separatedness.
What is separate from what?

How the sense of separation is experienced?
How does it show up?
I could see that - yes, everything was deeply interconnected. I could see that nothing happens on it’s own, which opened up a level of understanding.
Be careful not to go to intellectual reasoning or explanation, or trying to figure out what, how or why things happen the way they happen.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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awakeningbk
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:30 am

And who or what is it that is trying to maintain this point of view?
What or who is it that had this realization?
Does this realization happened to someone?
Ahhh. I have to remember to look thoroughly. No - there is nothing there trying to maintain this point of view — it’s just thoughts. Just cycling and arising thoughts.. And the cause and effect of emotion occurring as a result of them.
And what or who is it that can be caught up in the stories?
Nothing - no one. Like the cloud and rain - thoughts happen, and feelings follow.
Do you expect that after seeing through the illusion, the illusion will stop?
Or it never ever be believed again?
I suppose I just realized (thank you for helping me see) that yes... I guess I have been expecting or hoping for that. I thought I didn’t have expectations, but in reality I guess I secretly hoped that seeing would lead at least to seeing permanently in a little bit of a different way - maybe not a Big Bang, but perhaps a small change in life and existence... I guess that’s misguided? Ha.
Please describe to me this sense of separatedness.
What is separate from what?
How the sense of separation is experienced?
How does it show up?
I can’t find separateness in reality - but I struggle to feel it or experience it.

Right now, I see a plant in the room, and I breathe. I contemplate how the plant breathes too - we share one breath. Moving through the world, everything feels like a reaction to a million different other reactions - how deeply interconnected everything all is. And yet - looking, paying attention, at the same time it doesn’t feel “interconnected” because that would be saying that it’s all separate entities, which is feeling more and more and more false with time.
But I think, I see it intellectually, and only partially with full sight. But I am not sure.

The prevailing sense of separateness comes from thoughts that try to separate me from others. Parsing thoughts, thoughts that categorize. Prideful thoughts like “I am a hard worker”, or happy thoughts like “I am lucky to have wonderful friends”, or sad thoughts like “I will never accomplish my goals”.
I have seen that these things are all thoughts, and I understand that we are not analyzing the content of the thoughts, but this is my daily reality 99% of the time, even with the perspectives you have helped me to see.

But I suppose that’s all still expectations huh? I need to just accept the thought and allow them to be? It’s ok and expected to still have many of these thoughts, even if it’s 99% of existence? Or - I am missing something?

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Vivien
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:52 am

Hi awakeningbk,
Right now, I see a plant in the room, and I breathe. I contemplate how the plant breathes too - we share one breath. Moving through the world, everything feels like a reaction to a million different other reactions - how deeply interconnected everything all is. And yet - looking, paying attention, at the same time it doesn’t feel “interconnected” because that would be saying that it’s all separate entities, which is feeling more and more and more false with time.
But I think, I see it intellectually, and only partially with full sight. But I am not sure.
You mentioned this interconnectedness before. But the thing is that this is not an experiential seeing, it’s a logical conclusion, it’s coming from thinking.

Saying that both the body and the plant breathes and we share one breath, is thinking.
There is no experience of the plant breathing, I can only IMAGINE the plant breathing, since I’ve learned in school that plants ‘breath in’ carbon dioxide and breath out oxygen.

So based on learned, intellectual information you are making a logical conclusion and then you try to IMAGINE it.
But this is not equal to seeing it.
It’s all happens in thoughts only.
Seeing no control or no-separation doesn’t come from thinking.
It’s quite the opposite.
It can be recognized only, when all thoughts are ignored, put aside.
The prevailing sense of separateness comes from thoughts that try to separate me from others.
Me from others.
So where is the me, and where are others?
Is this body the me, and others are the other bodies?


The sense of separation comes only, when it’s believed that there is a me/self somewhere inside the body, or belonging to this body, and there are other selves inside other bodies.
And since bodies are individual and separate objects, hence the conclusion that there is a separation between me and others.
I need to just accept the thought and allow them to be?
So there is an awakeningbk who can accept thoughts and allow them to be?
Where is the one that has the power to accept thoughts and allow them to be?

Who is having thoughts?
Who is refusing them?
Who can accepting them?
Who is allowing them to be, or refusing them to be?

Who is thinking?
Who has a relationship with thoughts?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:08 am

So where is the me, and where are the others?
There is no “me”... There is just experience. There is just sensations, life happening, thoughts. Thus, there are no others - there are just other experiences, life happening, other thoughts my own experience might not know.

Something that helped today was really thinking about others (though - I hate saying others! Something feels wrong with that, but for the sake of simplicity). Seeing how this whole game of “self” manifests around. I live in NYC, and seeing the advertisements, people on the sidewalks dressing a certain way to convey a certain message, the decoration of apartments, statements through cars and purses and fancy restaurants.... It’s just seeming more and more like an overwhelming eco-system of others trying to convince themselves and everyone else that they are “x” or “y” or “z”. Desperate to convey that they exist, and in a specified form... It seems like there is so much fear!
I am not judging it negatively, just observing, because I have been the same way! Walking around, it’s astounding to really realize how much obsession with this construct there is! And there is so much pain around it! I think I can see why so many Buddhists talk about the necessity of compassion, how kindness is really the only way. Seeing how much suffering there is, everywhere, in everyone, simmering under the surface, springing from this illusion that there is a self to protect, foster, convey, prop up - it’s astonishing.

I don’t know if “I” myself am beyond it though. I feel like I’ve seen something very obvious, I can see how simple it is. But I also don’t know if those are expectations coming into play. Or maybe there’s an illusion of self/other coming in here. I’m sorry if these ramblings are not relevant - they feel like they might be, or maybe they betray weak points.
The interconnectedness is making more sense as well - not intellectually, but experientially. Input occurs, “I” react. Output occurs, my partner reacts. And all the constant actions occur simultaneously, like a giant moving dance. Is this understanding still just intellectual though? I have a conversation with my partner, and help craft “his” experience and reality, from what I’ve seen. He does the same with me, and we dance back and forth in this way. Even the clothes on my skin, they create experience, sensation, same with the keys beneath my fingers. So where is other? What is other? Other comes in contact with me and changes what I experience.
And yet, the seeing still feels incomplete.

I am sitting here writing your question “where is the me, where is the other?”

It is that “I” am just one vantage of awareness? For lack of a better term? Outside of the stories, the sensations and emotions - there’s awareness. I’ve been working, trying, really stretching to see this morning - even though I know it’s not supposed to require an effort, that it should be simple, that it’s likely more intellectualization.

This morning, “I” realized that I was still clinging to memory as some form of identification - to literally be “separate” from others. Past experiences. Others have other experiences.

But memories are just thoughts, and thoughts are not real. I know that, you’ve shown me that. And yet - it feels like there is something in the way? Or maybe it really is all this simple?
Is this body the me, and others are the other bodies?


It’s more that their awareness, different set of sensations and thoughts feel like me versus other??? Not a self, I know (“I” know - but really!) that it’s just experience - thoughts/emotions/sensations - but they are different sets from mine?
So there is an awakeningbk who can accept thoughts and allow them to be?
No!!!!!!!! Oh my good f&%*ing god. Omg.
Where is the one that has the power to accept thoughts and allow them to be?
NONEXISTENT. Ahhhhhhhhhhh!
Who is having thoughts?
Thoughts just are!
Who is refusing them?
Who is accepting them?
Who is allowing them to be, or refusing them to be?
No one no one no one - they think themselves they come of their own volition and move on. Thoughts just happen - allowing happens - refusing happens - I can’t find someone doing the action or determining it... It’s just thoughts, the allowing thought and the refusing thought, but all still thought
Who is thinking?
Who has a relationship with thoughts?
No one!!!!

AHHH! This feels close! But it doesn’t feel totally rock solid!!!! It feels like slipping backwards could happen so easily, but it also feels like “I’ve” seen something very very obvious!

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Vivien
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:14 am

Hi awakeningbk,

What I’m seeing from your replies that you have had a few glimpses, but soon after you are back to thinking, theorizing and interpreting.

You have to abandon thoughts. That’s the only way.
Seeing how this whole game of “self” manifests around. I live in NYC, and seeing the advertisements, people on the sidewalks dressing a certain way to convey a certain message, the decoration of apartments, statements through cars and purses and fancy restaurants.... It’s just seeming more and more like an overwhelming eco-system of others trying to convince themselves and everyone else that they are “x” or “y” or “z”. Desperate to convey that they exist, and in a specified form... It seems like there is so much fear!
You start with “seeing how this whole game of ‘self’ manifest around” – but the thing is that this not seeing, this is thinking.

Yes, your conclusions are valid conventionally speaking, but you cannot see through the illusion by thinking about it, and analysing it.

Do you remember all those exercises when we looked at the difference between thinking and experience? We didn’t simply do them just to see that the thought content is never real, but also to see HOW to look.

To see that no amount of thinking will help you. All thoughts are in the way. They are literally in the opposite direction. Is this clear?

Can you see how useless it is to think, analyse, make conclusions and theories?
It’s astounding to really realize how much obsession with this construct there is!
Yes, but this is still just an intellectual understanding. You were thinking about others, instead of looking at your own obsessions with thoughts here now, in this very moment.
Seeing how much suffering there is, everywhere, in everyone, simmering under the surface, springing from this illusion that there is a self to protect, foster, convey, prop up - it’s astonishing.
OK, so this is what you come to understand intellectually.

But what happens when you stop thinking about it, and looking at the immediate experience here now?
I don’t know if “I” myself am beyond it though. I feel like I’ve seen something very obvious, I can see how simple it is. But I also don’t know if those are expectations coming into play. Or maybe there’s an illusion of self/other coming in here.
Your problem is that you are thinking about this way too much.
Thinking won’t help you.
Just give it up.

Literally, give it up. Let it go. Let thoughts come and go, and just ignore them.
Instead, look what is here now, BEFORE any thinking.
The interconnectedness is making more sense as well - not intellectually, but experientially. Input occurs, “I” react. Output occurs, my partner reacts. And all the constant actions occur simultaneously, like a giant moving dance. Is this understanding still just intellectual though?
This is still intellectual. This whole idea of interconnectedness is an intellectual concept.
You have to let this go if you want to see through the illusion.

And just stay with what is here now.
Other comes in contact with me and changes what I experience.
And yet, the seeing still feels incomplete.
Yes, it is incomplete, since it’s intellectual. You are thinking, instead of looking what is here now.

Can you let go off your desire to think about it?

Can you just stay here now, and just notice what is here in this very moment?

So what is here now? – describe everything that is actually here now in this very moment, and not just a thought story.
It is that “I” am just one vantage of awareness? For lack of a better term? Outside of the stories, the sensations and emotions - there’s awareness. I’ve been working, trying, really stretching to see this morning - even though I know it’s not supposed to require an effort, that it should be simple, that it’s likely more intellectualization.
Because it is. It’s just more thinking.
This morning, “I” realized that I was still clinging to memory as some form of identification - to literally be “separate” from others. Past experiences. Others have other experiences.
This is also more intellectual discovery.
But memories are just thoughts, and thoughts are not real. I know that, you’ve shown me that. And yet - it feels like there is something in the way? Or maybe it really is all this simple?
What is in the way is that you are looking into a wrong direction.
As if you could find the answers in thoughts.
You can’t. It’s not possible.

You have to put aside all thoughts.
And just stay with the simplicity of what is.
It’s more that their awareness, different set of sensations and thoughts feel like me versus other??? Not a self, I know (“I” know - but really!) that it’s just experience - thoughts/emotions/sensations - but they are different sets from mine?
This is an endless fantasy. It’s all thinking. All conceptual.
AHHH! This feels close! But it doesn’t feel totally rock solid!!!! It feels like slipping backwards could happen so easily, but it also feels like “I’ve” seen something very very obvious!
And what is so obvious is the here-and-now experience as it is, BEFORE any thinking.
But you miss it, since you are mesmerized with thoughts.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:45 pm

To see that no amount of thinking will help you. All thoughts are in the way. They are literally in the opposite direction. Is this clear?

Can you see how useless it is to think, analyse, make conclusions and theories?
Yes that’s clear! Thank you. That makes a lot of sense - of course I just go straight back into analyzing.
But what happens when you stop thinking about it, and looking at the immediate experience here now?

Can you let go off your desire to think about it?

Can you just stay here now, and just notice what is here in this very moment?
So I’m in the grocery store line right now trying to do so, just looking and paying attention.

Vivien, how is this different from mindfully existing though? How is this different from walking meditation? Because I think perhaps this is where I’m getting tripped up - it feels like just simple observing and looking, while being. Looking at light filtering through leaves and just observing that, letting thoughts come and go.
I do this all the time while looking at trees, flowers, sometimes the clouds. I feel calm and still and, though thoughts still happen, I don’t need more than just whatever I am looking at. I love to go on walks through nature for this reason. Is this different in some way? What should I be seeing other than this?

I feel stupid or dense, like maybe I can’t see this?

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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:16 am

Hi awakeningbk,
Vivien, how is this different from mindfully existing though?
With ‘mindfully existing’ there is still a me who is mindfully existing :)

Looking at what is is not the end. Rather it’s a tool to see what is here and what is just imagined to be here.

The aim is not to mindfully exists, but to notice what is that actually exists, and what is just the figment of imagination.
I do this all the time while looking at trees, flowers, sometimes the clouds. I feel calm and still and, though thoughts still happen, I don’t need more than just whatever I am looking at. I love to go on walks through nature for this reason. Is this different in some way? What should I be seeing other than this?
Please go for a walk in nature, and just notice whatever is there.

Sit somewhere and just notice what is happening.

We normally believe that we are inside of this body, and looking out of the eyes, like through two windows, and observing the world out there.
So we are here inside the body and the world is out there (outside the body).

Right? Is this how you feel yourself to be? Looking out through the eyes, observing the world out there?

Please look around as you sit there.

Now, could you tell me where you are looking FROM?

WHAT is there? Is there a ‘me’ or a looker / seer in that direction? What do you find there?

Can you find a ‘me’ or awakeningbk who is seeing the trees?

Can you find a seer?

What do you find? What is that is actually there and not just assumed to be there?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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awakeningbk
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:02 am

Right? Is this how you feel yourself to be? Looking out through the eyes, observing the world out there?

Now, could you tell me where you are looking FROM?

WHAT is there? Is there a ‘me’ or a looker / seer in that direction? What do you find there?
I suppose. I did the exercise as requested, and I found that, more than anything it felt like I was immersed in a roving set of imagery... Hard to describe, but I walked, and the world obviously moved in relation to that movement - this is what feels the most like “looking out of two windows”. There is a defined point from which stimuli is being taken in, a defined vantage point. It’s this “vantage point” that caused skepticism to arise... If there is no seer, how can everything be coming in from this one set point? Am I not this point? But it wasn’t a conscious thought process Vivien, it was very immediate. Turning the head left, then right, taking in surroundings - they are fixed only in relation to where I was sitting. If my position changed, they changed as well.

However, in the same way that walking is effortless, seeing is effortless. There is no one there “deciding” to do the action of seeing - no one pulling the levers.

Additionally, In trying to just observe outside of thoughts, I noticed that the object being observed took over awareness in a way. Hard to describe though - just that noticing became my world so to speak.
Can you find a ‘me’ or awakeningbk who is seeing the trees?
Only insofar as a point in space, as a vantage point.. But not much outside of that.
Can you find a seer?
I couldn’t find someone deliberately taking the actions of “now it is time to see” and dictating my actions, no. But as stated above, I did find that there was a fixed point in space from which things were seen.

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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:58 am

Hi awakeningbk,
There is a defined point from which stimuli is being taken in, a defined vantage point. It’s this “vantage point” that caused skepticism to arise... If there is no seer, how can everything be coming in from this one set point? Am I not this point?
OK, there is a vantage point. But just because there is a vantage point does it mean that there is an enduring, self-directed, independent entity at that point?

That vantage point is the vantage point of the body and how the eyes are positioned.

But just because there is a body with eyes, it doesn’t mean that there is a long-lasting, autonomous entity sitting inside the head.

Our whole investigation is about to notice that there is no one inside the head or the body.
The body is literally empty of a self or a me.
Turning the head left, then right, taking in surroundings - they are fixed only in relation to where I was sitting. If my position changed, they changed as well.
Please read carefully your above comment.

Can you see that you believe that “I am the body” – otherwise you couldn’t say “where I was sitting” - , but what you are actually talking about is the body, and not a self?


So the body was sitting somewhere.
As the body moved its head, left and right, the visual image has changed.
When the body moved its position, the visuals also changed.

Yes, that’s true. We are not denying the body and its position in space.

But the question is:

Is there an actual ME, a long-lasting independent entity INSIDE the body, or INSIDE the head?
Or there is only the body with a head, but without a ME inside, looking out through the eyes?

When sitting, is there a me sitting, or the body is sitting?
When walking, is there a me walking, or the body is walking?


Please don’t think about these answers.
Rather go for another walk in nature, sit somewhere, and investigate the above.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:05 am

Hi Vivien,

Is it ok if I have an extra day to observe? Feels like something became more clear, but need time to verify and feel it out.

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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:12 am

Of course, no problem. Please be thorough.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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