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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:18 pm

Hi Luchana,

I was away for the past few days, I apologize for not having let you know beforehand. Nonetheless, I am still here and still looking, will get a response to your questions out by tomorrow morning.

Thank you for guiding me through this,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:02 am

Thank you for writing John,
Thank you for guiding me through this,
You are most welcome :-)

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:53 pm

Hi Luchana,
HOW are these "feelings of I" perceived exactly?
The feeling of I appears, as a feeling. When the focus is placed on the laptop, there appears a feeling within the body that creates the illusion of there being something here that looks out onto the laptop.
Am not sure this explanation makes sense, though the feeling of I as found, is always just a sensation that often gives the idea that there are two things. As in for example an experience happening and someone experiencing the experience.
Often it is also just a general feeling of I. That when investigated is found to be composed of many little sensations, which when investigated in turn, are found to be just sensations.

When not looking, when this is all forgotten what tends to happen is that the fact that this body and these thoughts are just another experience is forgotten.
By who or what are they believed?
Nothing to believe them. All that is, is that they are taken to be true. The idea that I am this body and these thoughts.
Can the process (whole bunch of feelings tied to this) be observed. I mean literally - from the begining till the end?'
I don't know if it is a process. What I meant is that when I write there are all these feelings and sensations. The physical feelings of my body, the thoughts that show up emotions like excitement, nervousness in regards to things that may or may not happen.
All of these appear. And now as they are all looked at, they are clearly all experience.
Though sometimes it is not noticed that they are not me.
How is this process happen? As an image? As a colour?
Or as an imagination?
I do not know what you are trying to point at here. Am not sure what process you are indicating.
What is not just a happening?
Nothing. Though this is something that is understood intellectually not experientially.
Who or what needs to understand?
No one. Just a desire for understanding. No one that needs to understand.

Overall now I can easily find the place where all is experience. Though most of the time am not there, and all just proceeds as it always did.

And is there anything else I need to look for within the realization that all is experience?

All the best,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:23 pm

Hi John,
And is there anything else I need to look for within the realization that all is experience?
Yes. Look at the following.

From your reply I picked this, because it's important.
Actually it's essential.
Nothing. Though this is something that is understood intellectually not experientially.
Ok, here what we can do about this,

In the midst of your daily life every time when it SEEMS that there is doer, a decider, a chooser, someone or something that seemingly does things - LOOK.

Can you find one?

But you have to really look. Literally. Spend the next day or two investigating into this and write what do you find.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:00 pm

Hi John,

I guess you were having some difficulties log into the site. It was difficult for me as well.
But now the site is working quite well.
Are you ready to continue?


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:21 pm

Hi Luchana,

Am sorry to have delayed so long.

It had nothing to do with the site but was on me.

I stopped looking for a week, and over the past two days have returned to it. And a lot of the things that seemed clear have returned to being fuzzy.

I am in the process of looking for a doer as you pointed in your previous message.

I am still keen on this.

I hope to have an answer out by tomorrow.

Sending you all the love in the world,
Thanks for all your help,
John

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:10 pm

Hi Luchana,

The past few days have been spent looking at whether or not things just happen.

As always its been confusing.

A lot of it has been very intellectual. I can come to an understanding that everything just happens, in that to say one thing does something is to oversimplify a reality where everything comes together to do any particular thing.

It is not the bird that does flying, but the motion of wings, the resistance of wind, the gravity of earth, the energy produced from the insects it ate, and so forth and so forth.

Another example I have been thinking about is a gas expanding to fill space. The gas expands. Though the gas does not do expanding. The expanding just happens. As a natural consequence of everything.

Nonetheless at present it is not clear to me that this is true for all things, and will go back and forth between thinking that there is doing or only happening, depending on what I look at.

In looking at my experience, I find that all just occurs. Thoughts just show up, and it is not clear where they started or where they come from. Decisions similarly just occur, as does movement, action, and emotion. It all just happens.

By happens I mean that no "subject" does it, or brings it about. It just occurs.

Huge hug to you Luchana,

John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:01 am

Hi John,
It is not the bird that does flying, but the motion of wings, the resistance of wind, the gravity of earth, the energy produced from the insects it ate, and so forth and so forth.
Another example I have been thinking about is a gas expanding to fill space. The gas expands. Though the gas does not do expanding. The expanding just happens. As a natural consequence of everything.
All these words above are purely conceptual, coming form thinking and reasoning, and not from looking.
With thinking we are not going to move forward. Literally you have to completly ingnore thinking. Completly ignore the contenct of thoughts, completly ingnore resoning and conceptualising.

You are thinking so hard to understand this, instead of really looking. And although you look sometimes, you spend much more time thinking about it, instead of looking at experience again and again.
Nonetheless at present it is not clear to me that this is true for all things, and will go back and forth between thinking that there is doing or only happening, depending on what I look at. "
Ok. Let's look directly at experience now.

What about John?

Is John part of this happening as well?

Can the character in this happening (the story) chooses the story?

Can Batman decide to be Darth Vader for example?


What I would suggest is one day or two to go for a walk somewhere in nature. A small park nearby is a good option also. Walk for a while, sit somewhere and look arround. Trees, flowers, insects, birds, people's chatters, children's playing, sensations in the body, thoughts including the thought of I, John am sitting, looking and observing- all this is just one happening. Look at what is present and answer these questions:

Can the character chooses what to feel, what to think, whether go for a walk or not?

Does the character choose this story?

Can it chooses another story, a different one, instead of what already is?

Can the story of John be seen as what it is - just a story, including John?




Much love to you
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:32 pm

Hi Luchana,

I have been looking at these questions for a while. I intellectually understand that the character is just a narrative that cannot make decisions. A narrative that is created and to which simply decisions are attributed. The character does not exist outside of what is, but is part of all that is happening.

I also can look at experience, and only find experience. In that case it seems that all must be just happening as there is no "I" outside of experience to do action. There is just an unfolding of experience, in which all just happens. In which there is no I. All just happens all is just experience.

Sort of as if there was a movie playing, the movie just unfolds.

It seems to me that I just need to continue looking, and returning to that.
Is John part of the happening as well?
Yes, John whether as a narrative or as a label is part of the happening.
Can the character in the happening choose their story?
The character does not choose. The character is a narrative or label added as an afterthought to which we attribute the decisions. It does not make the decisions.
Can the character chooses what to feel, what to think, whether go for a walk or not?
No, the decision just happens it just occurs.
Can it chooses another story, a different one, instead of what already is?
No, it cannot choose. It is just a fiction an idea. The choosing just happens, without someone doing it.
Can the story of John be seen as what it is - just a story, including John?
Yes it is just a story. A narrative that tries to tie in the experiences that happen.
There is the illusion of an actor navigating the world doing things. Though in truth there is only the world. There is only the experience.

Sending love,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:11 pm

Hi John,
I intellectually understand that the character is just a narrative that cannot make decisions. A narrative that is created and to which simply decisions are attributed.
I hear you... but the intellectual understanding is not going to bring clarity and ease. The direct experience of reality is like eating a juicy fresh fruit, like peach. And intellectual understanding is reading and thinking about what taste like this peach. You might not understand so far the importance of direct seeing compare to intellectually understanding... It's essential.
You have to do the job. You have to look.
So, let's do this now, John. Let's LOOK.
“The character does not exist outside of what is, but is part of all that is happening. “
If the character does not exist outside of what it is, like what exactly does it exist?

Like a sound, like a smell, a colour, a thought? Or like a content of thought?


What is is already here and these are sounds, colours, tastes, smell, sensations, thoughts. (not the content of thought) It's something like - "Oh, there is a thought."


Now please, look at the wall in front of you:

Does the colour of the wall exist? Is there any doubt about this?

Is there a sound also here?

(it could be a subtle sound - like coming from a computer, an air conditioning, from a fridge, a noise from cars that are passing ..
Is there a sound in this moment while you are looking at the colour of the wall?

Does the sound exist in the same moment while does the colour exist?

Or the colour exists in one moment and the sound in some other moment?

Is there any doubt about or you are absolutely sure?


You really have to look, literally look. I can't look on your behalf. Let go of thinking, just give up.

Stay here - look at the colour of the wall and listen to the sounds.

Are there two moments - one for the colour and one for the sound?

Or there is only one moment in which everything just is?

Can you find someone or something which is coming into this moment?



Make this exercise as much time as you can. Not just ones or twice. Do it like many times.
Watchfully. Curiously. It's simple, no need to make it complicated with thinking.


Much love to you
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:31 pm

Hi Luchana,
If the character does not exist outside of what it is, like what exactly does it exist? Like a sound, like a smell, a colour, a thought? Or like a content of thought?
Yes absolutely. The character is but the content of the thought. Usually exists as a narrative. A story.
Does the colour of the wall exist? Is there a sound also here?
Yes and yes.
Is there a sound in this moment while you are looking at the colour of the wall?
Yes there is.
Does the sound exist in the same moment while does the colour exist?
Or the colour exists in one moment and the sound in some other moment?
They exist in one moment. There is no separation between them either. They are just different facets of the present moment.

The only doubt is in regard to there being different moments in time. Is this moment in which I am typing in anyway separate from the moment before when I was having lunch? Does the moment end? Is the question that I am looking at.
Are there two moments - one for the colour and one for the sound?
Or there is only one moment in which everything just is?
There seems to be always only one moment. A moment in which everything is contained.
Can you find someone or something which is coming into this moment?
No nothing is found outside of this moment. Similarly to how nothing is found outside of experience.

And here is a thought that has been coming up recently.

In looking there is a constant attempt to see all of experience, to look at all. Though to this one needs to include the looking as well. Which seems to be an impossibility. What has been happening is more of an acceptance that the moment is always fully seen. The known is always known, without the need to look at it and label it as such.

Thank you,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:17 am

Hi John,
Yes absolutely. The character is but the content of the thought. Usually exists as a narrative. A story.
You did a good looking here. Let's just check:

If the character exists "usually" as a narrative, like what it exists when "not usually"?

is it possible that sometimes exists as a narrative and sometimes not?


Look and check.
“The only doubt is in regard to there being different moments in time. Is this moment in which I am typing in anyway separate from the moment before when I was having lunch?

But what is time realy? Let’s see.

What is time now? In this very moment? What is it?

Can you touch, smell and see time?

How time is experienced exactly?

How future is experienced exactly?

What about the past?

Does past or future ‘exists’ other than contents of thoughts?

Is there a proof that you had lunch yestarday?

Is there any experiential proof whatsoever that the past has ever happened?


Does the moment end? Is the question that I am looking at.”
Look directly.

Where is the end of this very moment?

And where is the beginning?

Can you point the exact beginning and end?



Please, don't think how the answer the questions. Look directly. Don't rush with intellectual conclusions.

Let me know what you find.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:33 am

Hey Luchana,
If the character exists "usually" as a narrative, like what it exists when "not usually"?
is it possible that sometimes exists as a narrative and sometimes not?
Am not sure I fully grasp this so thank you for pointing. It seems that the character is composed of more than just narrative. Just not sure I agree with the definition of character.

It seems that there is a narrative, a thread of stories, experiences, which are defined to belong to John. Alongside this the label "John" points to a body, it's thoughts, emotions, and mannerisms. Nonetheless, although all of these things exist, nothing within them makes them John except the fact that they are assigned to the label.

Within this, there seems to be more than just the narrative that is contained by the label John. Though at the end of the day John is just a label. And the separation it creates is illusory. As is the agency assigned to it.

Again I understand the character as an arbitrary assortment of parts, which when bundled together are called character. In that bundle, though I would include more than just the narrative.

Anyway, none of it is I. Just trying to compare our understandings of character.
But what is time really?
An arbitrary measure of change. Just as kilometers or distance is an arbitrary division of space.
Let’s see. What is time now?
In this very moment? What is it?
Time does not seem to exist now.
Can you touch, smell and see time? How time is experienced exactly?
No. It seems to be experienced in relation to memories.
How future is experienced exactly? What about the past?
Memory.
Does past or future ‘exists’ other than contents of thoughts?
No
Is there a proof that you had lunch yestarday?
Is there any experiential proof whatsoever that the past has ever happened?
No there isn't.
Where is the end of this very moment? And where is the beginning? Can you point the exact beginning and end?
Well there is only now. Experience which is all is just now. The experience percieved as having occured a "moment ago" is known only as a memory in this now. And in that sense is just another part of the experience of now.

There is only now. This has been difficult to accept, cause experience seems to change. And it is strange to deny all past experience. And say that all that is is the present experience. Even though it is true.

But nonetheless it seems that there is now way to say that now has ever existed differently than it does now. All that is known is now. Nothing else is known.

Big hug,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:13 am

Hi John,

An arbitrary measure of change. Just as kilometers or distance is an arbitrary division of space.
This is not coming from looking, this is thinking and reasoning.
No. It seems to be experienced in relation to memories.
Can you actually SEE experienialy "that is experienced in relation to memories"?

Or is this rather a logical conclusion?

Where this relation is happening from exactly?

Is there a place,a storage maybe where memories abide?

If there is such a place, relation, you will be able to point it.

Can you point the exact, physical location?


You mention "memory" quite few times, now let's investigate closer.


How “memory” is happening in experience?

As an image? As a sensation? Or as another thought?

What is the memory ‘made of’? Describe it fully. Colour, shape,texture.

And when does the memory appear?



Watch when a "memory" thought shows up and when "other general" thought shows up

Look - what is the exact difference between these two?


Now apply this with a "future" thought.

Look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

When does this future thought apear? In the future?

Look - what is the exact difference between these two - a "future thought" and a "general thought"

The experience percieved as having occured a "moment ago" is known only as a memory in this now.
right :-)
There is only now. This has been difficult to accept, cause experience seems to change. And it is strange to deny all past experience. And say that all that is is the present experience. Even though it is true.
We don't deny anything .. we just look if all of this is true in experience. We look how things are in reality.

(A small request - don't bulk a reply. Please, reply individually to each question There is a reason. Stay with each question as many time as you can)


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:37 pm

Hey Luchana,
Can you actually SEE experientially "that is experienced in relation to memories"?
Time is not experienced. I misused the word experienced here. Time is a logical deduction from looking at change, which is understood through memory. My answer to what is time, is intellectual, though am not sure how it could be otherwise. Time is an intellectual concept.
Or is this rather a logical conclusion?
Yeah it is.
Where this relation is happening from exactly?
Again I acknowledge that I misused the word experience. The sentence should have read as "It is understood in relation to memories", as time is a logical deduction. Not something present in experience. Where the understanding happens is unclear. It just happens.
Is there a place,a storage maybe where memories abide?
I have no idea. I just know memories when they happen.
If there is such a place, relation, you will be able to point it. Can you point the exact, physical location?
I do not understand. Are you asking me to point to the place where memories are in the same way I would point to my computer? Memories just appear as part of experience.
How “memory” is happening in experience? As an image? As a sensation? Or as another thought?
Memory occurs in experience as thought, in that it is not present in what we would call the physical, but as mental image, or mental sensation.
What is the memory ‘made of’? Describe it fully. Colour, shape,texture. And when does the memory appear?
The word memory refers to an experience, which is relived mentally. So as thought. The color, shape, and texture are those that correspond to that moment. The sensations of that moment, all appear.
Watch when a "memory" thought shows up and when "other general" thought shows up
Look - what is the exact difference between these two?
Seems to be the same thing. We call one memory to explain that it was experienced, though there is no difference between the two. Beyond just the definition word. The definition of the word also does not make it so that the memory actually corresponds to an experience. As all we know is now.
What is the future thought ‘made of’? When does this future thought apear? In the future?
The future thought appears now. What is it made of? Am not sure what is the substance of thoughts. It just is.
Look - what is the exact difference between these two - a "future thought" and a "general thought"
And there is no difference between the future thought and a general thought.

Much love,
John


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