Guidance for deep looking

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:17 am

Hi Mike,
Through the day there are thoughts about looking after the body, and not damaging it (say with exercise) and eating the right stuff etc. which leads to thoughts about it being mine and needing my attention to keep healthy.
It seems that these thoughts are a conditioned patterns of thinking. It has come up before. This story has some background, something that happened in the past, which were traumatic, and resulted in these thoughts as coping mechanism. I’m just telling this, because you might want to work on this with a therapist.

Whatever triggered these thought-emotion patterns of fearing damaging the body, this probably creating a stronger identification with the body, than what normally happens.

But, we can investigate the assumption that the body is MINE.

We often say ‘MY body’ – so what is it that owns the body?
And how do you know that the body is owned?
What is it that claims ‘MY body’?

You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?
Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?
Do thoughts own the clothes?
Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the clothes?
Does word/thought Mike owns the clothes?
Does the label on clothes own the clothes?

Does the label ‘my’ owns the body?
Does the label/word/thought Mike owns the body?

Its more like the body feels like its mine - and precious.
You say that the body FEELS LIKE it’s mine. – So what is the FEELING of the body being mine?
Describe this FEELING / SENSATION as precisely as you can.
Not the thoughts, not the story, but the RAW FEELING itself.

And you say it’s precious to you. – Precious to whom?

What / who is it that is concerned about the body?
What / who is it that is afraid of the body being damaged?

WHERE is the one that is concerned or afraid? Where?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:38 am

Hi Vivien
Through the day there are thoughts about looking after the body, and not damaging it (say with exercise) and eating the right stuff etc. which leads to thoughts about it being mine and needing my attention to keep healthy.

It seems that these thoughts are a conditioned patterns of thinking. It has come up before. This story has some background, something that happened in the past, which were traumatic, and resulted in these thoughts as coping mechanism. I’m just telling this, because you might want to work on this with a therapist.

Whatever triggered these thought-emotion patterns of fearing damaging the body, this probably creating a stronger identification with the body, than what normally happens.
ok thanks Vivien.

I think I may have a little more interest/attachment to the body than some - not sure - I like to be physically active and have had various injuries - and like to take vitamins which help with energy etc. I enjoy do various breathing exercises etc. I like the thought of being physically fit and not aging too fast:) Looking after the body has become a kind of hobby. There's an element of infatuation with it sometimes! But mostly I think a desire for the body to be energetic and work well.

Also the body sensations feel close and intimate. It feels like the house I'm in that I need to maintain.

I'm not aware of a traumatic event but of course there may have been one.

Anyway thanks for your suggestion :)
We often say ‘MY body’ – so what is it that owns the body?
Looking now I can't find any owner. There are sensations and thoughts. A thought comes up - whose body is this?

I spent some time being aware of the body and asking this question.

The only answer I get is the voice and the sensations in the face /behind the face/in the head.

Then I look at the voice - and the sensations/ feeling behind the eyes and face. The internal voice come up out of no-where , a thought says it is mine/familiar, it comments on stuff, reacts to things, talks about plans and fears etc. There's no way it is the owner of the body.

The sensation in the face are in the body - they don't own it.

So I can't find any owner.(which is interesting)
And how do you know that the body is owned?
Before whenever I look at a part of the body a thought comes up - this is mine.

But after looking I cant find any owner.

And actually I don't know that it is owned (right now this thought seems to shift how I am looking at the body). Previously I have assumed that I am in the body and that I control it and it is mine. But right now I can't find an owner and so the thought that it is owned is weaker.
What is it that claims ‘MY body’?
There is no one to claim it.

When the question comes up - what is it that claims this body? The attention goes to the head area - the internal voice/sensations behind the face etc.

That made me laugh - its ridiculous to say that the internal voice or the sensation behind /in the face can claim the body.
You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
Normally I would say I own them. But if I can't find an owner of the body then I can;t say who owns the clothes it wears.
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
An internal voice comes up saying this is mine, along with various emotions and sensations. There's a grasping feeling. (A physical contraction), or a feeling of pleasure or satisfaction or fear (if the thing is threatened).

With clothes a thought says they are mine. You paid for them. You can wear them. No-one else can unless you give them permission.

But I can't find any owner except the body (which can't own anything) and the internal voice /sensations - assumption of an I - which can;t own anything.

It seems that Mike own the clothes. There is a story ( a memory) of Mike buying clothes and then wearing them. But when I look I can't find a separate Mike to do the buying/owning.
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?
can't find anything.
Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?
no impossible.
Do thoughts own the clothes?
no equally impossible.
Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the clothes?
no
Does word/thought Mike owns the clothes?
no
Does the label on clothes own the clothes?
ha - no
Does the label ‘my’ owns the body?
no def not
does the label/word/thought Mike owns the body?
no.
Its more like the body feels like its mine - and precious.
You say that the body FEELS LIKE it’s mine. – So what is the FEELING of the body being mine?
there is attention on the body then a thought comes up this is mine. Then emotions etc. Its the thought this is mine and I want to look after it because I live inside it that triggers the feelings.
Describe this FEELING / SENSATION as precisely as you can.
The raw sensation - the only feeling is a feeling of possessiveness. Physically if the body is threatened it feels like anger/fear/feelings of tightening. If the body is in a good or more pleasureable/comfortable situation then the feeling is warmth and relaxed.
And you say it’s precious to you. – Precious to whom?
Again when I ask that question all I get is the internal voice talking and the attention goes to behind the face/eyes.

I cant find a me the body is precious to.

But a thought just came up that it is the survivial instinct. Thoughts about protecting the body come up to keep it safe.
What / who is it that is concerned about the body?
A thought comes up in answer - I don't know.

I cant find anyone.
What / who is it that is afraid of the body being damaged?
Again nothign I can find - but thoughts coming up doing their job to protect it.

Many thanks Vivien
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:56 am

Hi Mike,

I’m going to give you lots of questions this time. Please don’t rush with the reply. It’s OK if you reply in 2-3 days, just be thorough. Look at every question deeply.
I think I may have a little more interest/attachment to the body than some - not sure - I like to be physically active and have had various injuries - and like to take vitamins which help with energy etc. I enjoy do various breathing exercises etc. I like the thought of being physically fit and not aging too fast:) Looking after the body has become a kind of hobby. There's an element of infatuation with it sometimes! But mostly I think a desire for the body to be energetic and work well.
YOU like taking vitamins, or THOUGHTS ABOUT liking taking vitamins show up, thus taking vitamins happen?

Do YOU do various breathing exercises, or breathing exercises just happen?

Do YOU like the thought of being physically fit and not aging too fast, or THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘being fit and not liking aging too fast’ appear frequently, therefore exercising and caring after the body happens?

Looking after the body is YOUR hobby, or a conditioning / habit or a hobby of looking after has developed over the years, and now thoughts labelled that habit or hobby as ‘MY hobby’?

Do YOU have a desire for the body being energetic and work well, or there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT wanting the body being energetic and working well with some accompanying emotions?

The raw sensation - the only feeling is a feeling of possessiveness.
Is there such thing as a FEELING of possessiveness?
Can possessiveness be actually FELT or only THOUGHT of?
If you say that it can be felt, then please describe the actual feeling of it.
Where is this feeling in the body, and how do you know that what is felt is possessiveness and not something else, like a muscle contraction?
Physically if the body is threatened it feels like anger/fear/feelings of tightening. If the body is in a good or more pleasureable/comfortable situation then the feeling is warmth and relaxed.
So when the body is threatened, there are unpleasant sensations.
And when circumstances are pleasant, then the sensations are pleasant too.
Either way, these are just sensation, with different thought labels.

But these are NOT the description of the FEELING of the body being mine.
These are just the description of pleasant and unpleasant sensations. Can you see this?

Anger is anger, but NOT the feeling of the body being mine. Can you see this?

And is the sensation labelled fear, is the FEELING of the body being mine? Or it’s just a sensation with the ‘fear’ label on it?

And what about ‘feelings of tightening’? What makes the feeling of tightening (which is a contracted sensation) into a feeling of the body being mine?

Is there ANY sensation that is communicate it any way that it’s a feeling of the body being mine?
Or only ever thoughts come up with a story of the body being mine?

But WHERE is this me that thoughts are talking on behalf? Where?

Previously I have assumed that I am in the body and that I control it and it is mine. But right now I can't find an owner and so the thought that it is owned is weaker.
So what about this “I control the body”? – let’s look into this

When walking, what is moving the body?
When brushing your teeth, what is controlling the movements?
When talking, what is making the mouth move?
What is controlling what sounds should come out of the mouth?
When eating, what is controlling the process of chewing and swallowing?
When typing the reply, what is controlling and moving the fingers?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:04 am

Hi Vivien
YOU like taking vitamins, or THOUGHTS ABOUT liking taking vitamins show up, thus taking vitamins happen?
No I don't decide to take the vitamins because there is no controller that can be found. Yes thoughts about taking vitamins to stay healthy come out of no-where. Then vitamins are taken - yes that's what happens when I look.
Do YOU do various breathing exercises, or breathing exercises just happen?
No I don't do them. I've been looking for a controller again but cant find one. A thought saying: you'll feel good if you do the breathing exercises comes up along with some emotion/impulse. Looking again and again I cant find a controller or decider.
Do YOU like the thought of being physically fit and not aging too fast, or THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘being fit and not liking aging too fast’ appear frequently, therefore exercising and caring after the body happens?
Yes the thoughts just appear - there might be a feeling of tiredness or low mood followed by another thought/image of me feeling more energetic and happier after doing the breathing exercises, then an impulse to do them. There is a physical contraction in the body - which is labelled as good in this case. It comes with a thought something like - lets do this. And the image of feeling energetic and in a good mood still there.

During this the I thought is present more strongly.

But yes when I look I see that the thoughts pop up out of no-where

I feel bad/tired (words and images)
I don't like it (words and physical contractions labelled as bad and emotions.)
How can I change it.
The breathing exercises usually work.
Lets do it.

The thought lets do it comes up automatically - along with physical contractions.
Looking after the body is YOUR hobby, or a conditioning / habit or a hobby of looking after has developed over the years, and now thoughts labelled that habit or hobby as ‘MY hobby’?

For it to be my hobby there would have to be a separate I controlling things and owning things/activities. So far I cant find one.

But there is a belief in an I and memories of that I deciding to do things like looking after the body.
Do YOU have a desire for the body being energetic and work well, or there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT wanting the body being energetic and working well with some accompanying emotions?
Again when I look like now I can not find any I to have the desire. The I (decider/one who is a constant me) is not in sensations in the body or face or in thoughts that come up (they just come up on their own), or in emotions like anger and fear etc. If I bring my attention behind the eyes all that's there are sensations and... nothing else (unless you say the thoughts and emotions are there).

But there is a feeling that there is an I moving my attention from one place to another.

Ok looking again -

A thought comes up - where is the I? or is there a doer or a me to have a desire to be healthy?

Then attention goes to different parts of the body - along with thoughts: I am looking, I want to see this. And a thought that I am looking and some physical contraction labelled as effort.
The raw sensation - the only feeling is a feeling of possessiveness.
Is there such thing as a FEELING of possessiveness?
No - I look at something or think about it and then thoughts comes up this is mine, I want to protect it or look after it etc and then there are various sensations contractions in the body , sometimes a kind of electrical feeling. These feelings are
labelled by another thought as possesiveness.
Can possessiveness be actually FELT or only THOUGHT of?
No I see now its a thought that triggers sensations which are labelled as possessiveness. When I look it all happens very quickly. There's a thought that I am making effort to look and some sensations of contraction labelled as effort.

Again when I look for the I who is looking (or typing now) I find sensations/thoughts/physical contractions labelled by thought as me and as effort.
If you say that it can be felt, then please describe the actual feeling of it.
No possessiveness I see now cant be felt. But sensations triggered by the thought this is mine can be felt.

If I think for example about my daughter especially if I think of her being threatened in some way then multiple thoughts arise and they trigger lots sensations - contractions in the face, neck, stomach, feeling of heat in the body, tensing of the jaw etc.

These sensations might be labelled as possessiveness.
Where is this feeling in the body, and how do you know that what is felt is possessiveness and not something else, like a muscle contraction?
In the stomach, temples, jaw.

Some sensations arise more often with thoughts of this is mine. So another thought says these sensations are possessiveness.
Physically if the body is threatened it feels like anger/fear/feelings of tightening. If the body is in a good or more pleasureable/comfortable situation then the feeling is warmth and relaxed.

So when the body is threatened, there are unpleasant sensations.
And when circumstances are pleasant, then the sensations are pleasant too.
Either way, these are just sensation, with different thought labels.

But these are NOT the description of the FEELING of the body being mine.
These are just the description of pleasant and unpleasant sensations. Can you see this?
Yes I can see that now.

there is as you say no feeling of the body being mine - there are feelings that follow the thought this is mine and then the sensations are labelled as a feeling of mine. Yes I see this.

Actually yes as I look more can see the separation between thought and sensation better.
Anger is anger, but NOT the feeling of the body being mine. Can you see this?
Yes anger is an emotion the body is mine is a thought - which might trigger all sorts of emotions (which can then be labelled as the feeling of mine) -
And is the sensation labelled fear, is the FEELING of the body being mine? Or it’s just a sensation with the ‘fear’ label on it?
Yes - a thought comes into the mind. Like I'm not sure if I will have work in two months time. Then an image of Mike not being able to pay the mortgage and getting into debt then physical sensations in the body. Contractions in the head/temples - a surging feeling from belly to head of different intensities. The body getting hot or cold. Yes these sensations are labelled as fear. And this generates more sensations.

Certain sensations come with certain thoughts. The thought I have plenty of money in the bank triggers different sensations to the thought next week I won't get paid. I would say the first thought triggers unpleasant sensations and the second pleasant sensations.

But then the only thing that makes the pleasant sensations pleasant is a thought labeling them as such.
And what about ‘feelings of tightening’? What makes the feeling of tightening (which is a contracted sensation) into a feeling of the body being mine?
nothign just thought labeling
Is there ANY sensation that is communicate it any way that it’s a feeling of the body being mine?
No I can see now - its only thought that says the body is mine.
Or only ever thoughts come up with a story of the body being mine?
Yes
But WHERE is this me that thoughts are talking on behalf? Where?
All I can sense are body sensations/thoughts/emotions and what can be seen and heard and felt.

I can't find a separate controller me anywhere. Just the voice talking.

thoughts triggering emotions and sensations.

When walking, what is moving the body?
I cant'd find anything.

When brushing your teeth, what is controlling the movements?
Again I can't find anything. I can see the hand moving back and forth. no controller.
When talking, what is making the mouth move?
Can't find anyone!
What is controlling what sounds should come out of the mouth?
The sounds come out. I don't know how.

A thought pops up I can choose what to say but whatever is said just comes out. I can't find a chooser.
When eating, what is controlling the process of chewing and swallowing?
no-one!
When typing the reply, what is controlling and moving the fingers?
They move by themselvs.

thnaks again Vivien.

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:34 am

Hi Mike,
I feel bad/tired (words and images)
I don't like it (words and physical contractions labelled as bad and emotions.)
How can I change it.
The breathing exercises usually work.
Lets do it.

The thought lets do it comes up automatically - along with physical contractions.
OK, so you can see that the words ‘let’s do it’ comes up by automatically.
And what about the other elements of the process?

Does feeling bad or tired are made by someone, or these also happen on their own, automatically?

And the thought of ‘I don’t like it’ is a doing, or is this also just an automatic happening?

And what about the thoughts of ‘how can I change it’? Are these thoughts are thought by someone, or these also happens effortlessly, on their own?

And what about the conclusion thought “the breathing exercise usually works” – is this thought by Mike, or they are also just happening?


Please don’t just think these through, but rather observe the process in real life, next time when it happens.
But there is a belief in an I and memories of that I deciding to do things like looking after the body.
So how does this belief of I and memories of ‘I deciding’ show up?
In what form this belief appear?
Is it a sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or a thought? A verbal thought? Or a visual thought?
But there is a feeling that there is an I moving my attention from one place to another.
OK, let’s look into this.

You can experiment with sitting quietly, and holding attention on breathing.
Sooner or later attention will move on to another object/thing.

Try to ignore thinking about how all of it happens. We are not trying to figure out the ‘how’. That would be just more thinking and not experiencing.

We are just noticing WHAT IS, what is actually happening, without trying to interpret or give meaning to it.

Notice, that focus of attention is constantly moving. Watch closely.

Is there something moving attention or is it going to the next thing automatically?
If it seems to be a mover, then try to locate it. Where is it? Can you find a person, a me moving attention?
What is that moves attention? Is there anything moving it? Or does it move by itself?


Experiment with this several times a day, even if just for a few minutes each, but try to have a longer session. Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:09 am

Hi Vivien
Does feeling bad or tired are made by someone, or these also happen on their own, automatically?
It happens automatically for sure - the thought I feel tired just pops up.
And the thought of ‘I don’t like it’ is a doing, or is this also just an automatic happening?
Yes completely automatically - it often follows on from the I feel tired thought.
And what about the thoughts of ‘how can I change it’? Are these thoughts are thought by someone, or these also happens effortlessly, on their own?
Yes this comes automatically as well - it pops up in response to the other thoughts.
And what about the conclusion thought “the breathing exercise usually works” – is this thought by Mike, or they are also just happening?
Yes its all automatic this thought as well.

Sometimes when this is realized - when the thought is seen happening automatically in the moment there's a thought /feeling/assumption of someone waking up/realizing to the thought the breathing is working. But again I can't find any I when I look.
But there is a belief in an I and memories of that I deciding to do things like looking after the body.
So how does this belief of I and memories of ‘I deciding’ show up?

The belief is a thought. The memories images - like a movie showing me doing things (breathing exercises/taking vitamins ) with a thought that there was an I making decisions.
In what form this belief appear?
Its a thought.
Is it a sound? Color? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or a thought? A verbal thought? Or a visual thought?
Its an assumption (not a thought in words) based on visual thoughts which show an image of Mike seemingly thinking about doing breathing exercises or taking vitamins and feeling better afterwards.
You can experiment with sitting quietly, and holding attention on breathing.
Sooner or later attention will move on to another object/thing.

Try to ignore thinking about how all of it happens. We are not trying to figure out the ‘how’. That would be just more thinking and not experiencing.

We are just noticing WHAT IS, what is actually happening, without trying to interpret or give meaning to it.

Notice, that focus of attention is constantly moving. Watch closely.
Is there something moving attention or is it going to the next thing automatically?
It totally automatic. The attention is flying about all over the place.

Then it comes back to the breath.

Coming back feels different. There is that slight contraction and thought assumption that I am bringing it back and that my attention is not good.

It feels like constantly falling asleep then waking up and realizing thinking has been going on.
If it seems to be a mover, then try to locate it. Where is it? Can you find a person, a me moving attention?
It def doesn't feel like there is a mover moving the attention away from the breath but at first it does feel like there is one moving it back.

But I can't find anyone.

What is that moves attention? Is there anything moving it? Or does it move by itself?
Looking I see that it moves by itself - made me laugh again an again to see it.

But then it seems like I forget. Thoughts come in and say but you need to plan for the future. Then another thought saying planning happens by itself.

Also a thought comes up who is looking then? Who is realizing that the attention moves by itself?

Thanks again Vivien for your patience.

Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:27 am

Hi Mike,
like a movie showing me doing things
The movie showing things to you?
So you are watching the movie? Is this so?
It feels like constantly falling asleep then waking up and realizing thinking has been going on.
What is it that falls asleep?
And what wakes up?
It def doesn't feel like there is a mover moving the attention away from the breath but at first it does feel like there is one moving it back.
Then you have to look at this more.
Look again and again and again, hundreds of times, and try to spot the one that is moving attention back to the breath. Let me know what you find.
But then it seems like I forget.
So there is you who can forget?
What is it that forgets?
Thoughts come in and say but you need to plan for the future. Then another thought saying planning happens by itself.
So thoughts are talking to you?
Also a thought comes up who is looking then? Who is realizing that the attention moves by itself?
This question is based on the assumption that there must be a subject, a doer, who/what makes things happen. This assumption comes from language, which is dualistic. (subject – doing – object)

Look at the clouds and rain and storms.
Is it cloud that does the raining? Or the rain that rains itself? Or is it water that does falling? Or certain conditions make raining happen?
And what is deciding to turn the rain into a storm or hurricane?
And what makes the rain stop? Is it the sky’s doing?
Is there a doer of rain? Is there something or someone making the rain happen?

Is it possible that no one starts the rain?
Is it possible that cloud doesn’t choose to rain?

Now look, what is it that is doing thinking? Is there any one making it happen, or it’s happening automatically, on its own?

And what is it that is doing the looking? Is there anyone looking, or looking is just happening on its own, just as everything else happens on its own?

Is there someone realizing that attention moves by itself? Is there someone watching attention?

Or this also just happen effortlessly on its own?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:14 am

Hi Vivien

Have been looking quite a bit yesterday through the day which does seem to be shifting something. If its okay I'd like to continue through today before getting back to you tomorrow.

Best wishes
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:23 am

Of course, just be thorough :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:30 am

Hi Vivien
like a movie showing me doing things
The movie showing things to you?
So you are watching the movie? Is this so?

I can't find a me watching. There are images and movies playing (imagination memories). There is watching of the movie but I can't see a me watching it.
It feels like constantly falling asleep then waking up and realizing thinking has been going on.
What is it that falls asleep?

I can't find anyone falling asleep or waking up. There is attention shifting around and thoughts related to that. So say the attention is on the breath then it goes to something else then there is realizing the attention has shifted (I can't find anyone who does the realizing but there the realizing or noticing that attention has shifted happens). Then there may be thoughts like - my attention has slipped (but I can't find a thinker - the thoughts just pop up).
And what wakes up?
No one that I can find. Just waking up and thoughts.
it def doesn't feel like there is a mover moving the attention away from the breath but at first it does feel like there is one moving it back.
Then you have to look at this more.
Look again and again and again, hundreds of times, and try to spot the one that is moving attention back to the breath. Let me know what you find.
Ok I've been looking on and off through the last few days for someone/ a me moving attention (or doing thoughts). No I can't find anyone moving attention. It moves on its own - thoughts aren't done (even when there is a thought saying they are). There's no way thoughts can be done because they appear ready made - and they don't even require attention to appear ( as attention is only shifted towards them after they've been running for a while).

I've been asking who thought that or who did that on and off throughout the day and can't find anyone creating thoughts or doing actions.

If for example I lie on the bed before getting up and various options /thoughts appear. Images of Mike getting up to have a shower or do some breathing exercises or get some breakfast. There's some physical contractions which are labelled as effort/deciding (which yes comes up automatically). Then all of a sudden a decision is made.

There is a thought saying this is the right thing to do followed by some physical contraction again.

It makes all of the angst about making decisions seem ridiculous.
But then it seems like I forget.
So there is you who can forget?
Ha no I cant find one.

What is it that forgets?
I don't know but there is forgetting.
Thoughts come in and say but you need to plan for the future. Then another thought saying planning happens by itself.
So thoughts are talking to you?

The thoughts say these things - you need to plan for the future but actually when I look I don't know who they are talking to.

This means that all of the planning that happened (that memory says happened) was automatic - happened effortlessly and without a separate me. So for example all the exams taken or work done has just happened. They thought I am going to plan for the future. I am going to try to make myself more financially stable or I will try this business oppourtunity are just thoughts added on.
Is it possible that no one starts the rain?
yes clearly no one starts it.
Is it possible that cloud doesn’t choose to rain?


yes it doesn't choose to rain. The rain just falls because of certain conditions.

Now look, what is it that is doing thinking? Is there any one making it happen, or it’s happening automatically, on its own?
The thoughts are happening on there own. They come up one after another - triggered by other thoughts and events. They a re noticed usually once they have been going for a while.
And who is doing the looking?
I can't find a looker. Attention moves by itself.
Is there a looker or is it happening on its own?
I can't find a looker - my fingers are typing, thoughts (internal voice) is saying the words. There are sensations, sounds, other thoughts etc.

There does seem to be a point of view - the looking is taking place from here not over there but I cant find anyone looking.
Is there someone realizing that attention moves by itself? Is there someone watching attention?
It is realized. It is known/noticed but a noticer cant be found.
Or this also just happen effortlessly on its own?
Yes its all happening on its own but thoughts come up to say otherwise. But they too are automatic.


Thanks again Vivien for your patience. I am finding that looking more often through the day in the middle of activities is helpful. Like asking who thought that, or who did that who noticed that etc. It seems like shifting between two points of view , like getting to the edge of something then backing off....

Anyway thanks again :)
Mike

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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:34 am

Hi Mike,
Ok I've been looking on and off through the last few days for someone/ a me moving attention (or doing thoughts). No I can't find anyone moving attention. It moves on its own - thoughts aren't done (even when there is a thought saying they are). There's no way thoughts can be done because they appear ready made - and they don't even require attention to appear ( as attention is only shifted towards them after they've been running for a while).
Nice investigation :)
I am finding that looking more often through the day in the middle of activities is helpful. Like asking who thought that, or who did that who noticed that etc
That’s good, just keep doing that.
There is watching of the movie but I can't see a me watching it.
So what is it that is doing the watching?

Is there someone or something separate from what is being watched? Something other than the movie, which watches the movie?

Is there a separation between the watcher + watching + watched?
Are there 3 things happening?
Or these are just 3 different ways of describing the same phenomenon, just thoughts happening?


Note how experience shows up in each moment. There are sounds, tastes, smells, colors, shapes, sensations, feelings, thoughts, mental images. Constant flux.

Now look….

Is there something receiving experience?
What is at the receiving end? Is there a Mike at the receiving end?
Is experience received somewhere?
Is there a receiving end at all? Or there is only experience? This, what is here now, what is happening right now?


Please be very careful not to go to thinking. Rather actually check this in experience. As often as possible throughout your day. And even when the reply seems pretty clear, look more.
It seems like shifting between two points of view , like getting to the edge of something then backing off....
It’s normal. At the beginning there are lots of flip-flopping, but after some time (which could be weeks, months or even years – depending how much looking happens) it stops flip-flopping.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:58 am

Hi Vivien

I had an argument with someone yesterday and have been ruminating on it since with lots of thoughts and emotions.

Or maybe I should say I met someone yesterday and reacted (thoughts and emotions) popped up in response to what was heard here and the meaning given to what was heard.

Looking at the argument the thoughts came up on their own and the emotions were triggered by the thoughts. It was/is happening by itself - the thought of a me who is being attacked and needs to defend himself.

Now the disturbance is here (thoughts about the argument, what should have been said, or done differently and thoughts about plans to take some action which will make the I feel better about itself. (Yes but when I look there is no I - just sensations and thoughts arising by themselves).

There is a thought that says: I don't want to be disturbed by this. I want to forget it. And another that that says no you cant let this go. You need to fix it.

I don't know who the I who is that the thought is referring to. The thoughts and emotions and physical sensations come up by themselves.

I'll use this incident to look at your questions if that's ok. (as thoughts related to it keep popping up).
There is watching of the movie but I can't see a me watching it.

So what is it that is doing the watching?
I cant find anyone/thing watching, but there is watching and noticing , and attention moving.

Actually I'm not sure I know what attention is. Thoughts appear replaying events from yesterday. They are not noticed at first then noticing happens - usually when one thought triggers an emotion. When this happens there are physical contractions. Then another thought that says you dont want to think about this and another which says yes you do because then you can fix the problem and feel better.

When I say this is noticed or attention shifts it implies there is someone who is noticing rather than this is just happening. Now there are thoughts , now there is an emotion (fear, anger etc), now there are physical sensations, now this is being said or that.

Is there someone or something separate from what is being watched? Something other than the movie, which watches the movie?
I can't see or sense anyone separate to what is seen or imagined.

There are thoughts which circle around which trigger strong emotions and conflicting thoughts. No one separate that I can find.
Is there a separation between the watcher + watching + watched?
Thoughts appear like a movie , the world is here. I was going to say it is known that there is watching. Its might be a limitation of language but watching seems to imply a watcher, but I cant find one.

But there does appear to be distance between here and what is watched. Things (like the laptop) appear to be over there.
Are there 3 things happening?
Still looking at this.

When thoughts come (playing movie) they run and there is just the movie no watcher or even watching. Then other thoughts come up with emotions and sensations that interrupt the movie. Then they run for a while.

There is no need for a watcher or even watching in this.
Or these are just 3 different ways of describing the same phenomenon, just thoughts happening?

watching/watched/watcher yes they are all just describing events/thoughts happneing.

Note how experience shows up in each moment. There are sounds, tastes, smells, colors, shapes, sensations, feelings, thoughts, mental images. Constant flux.

Now look….

Is there something receiving experience?
need to look more- but no

What is at the receiving end? Is there a Mike at the receiving end?
no .

Just flux of thoughts emotions more thoughts sensations. conflicting thoughts, thoughts triggering excitement, anger, feelings of peace etc. Thoughts about this process etc.

thoughts not quite believing it. thoughts saying this is it.
Is experience received somewhere?
It seems as if objects are over there but there is no place that experience is being received.


I
s there a receiving end at all? Or there is only experience? This, what is here now, what is happening right now?
Phew - Its begining to sink in.

These words watcher watching watched are just words. There is this my fingers moving ont he keyboard. Thoughts sayig this or that. Emotions, sensation. Or in reality there what is happening now - not the words I used to describe it.

Still looking :)

Thnaks again
Vivien
Mike

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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:21 am

Hi Mike,
Thoughts appear like a movie , the world is here. I was going to say it is known that there is watching. Its might be a limitation of language but watching seems to imply a watcher, but I cant find one.

But there does appear to be distance between here and what is watched. Things (like the laptop) appear to be over there.

OK. So it seems that the laptop is over there. So then where is the here?
Find the exact location what you label as ‘here’. Where it is exactly?
V: Note how experience shows up in each moment. There are sounds, tastes, smells, colors, shapes, sensations, feelings, thoughts, mental images. Constant flux.
Now look….
Is there something receiving experience?
M: need to look more- but no
So, is there something receiving experience?
Is there a receiving-end at all?
It seems as if objects are over there but there is no place that experience is being received.
But how can there be an over there, if there is no receiving end?
Look at the display before you, and fix your gaze on an object, like a cup or table.

What is making the cup be over there? Over there compare to what?
In order to be over there, there has be an over here. So where is the over-here?
Is there a self-directed, autonomous, independent, separate entity or a me, or Mike over-here?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:35 am

Hi Vivien
Thoughts appear like a movie , the world is here. I was going to say it is known that there is watching. Its might be a limitation of language but watching seems to imply a watcher, but I cant find one.

But there does appear to be distance between here and what is watched. Things (like the laptop) appear to be over there.

OK. So it seems that the laptop is over there. So then where is the here?
Find the exact location what you label as ‘here’. Where it is exactly?

Even though I can see thoughts happening by themselves and when I look I can't find an I. But it feels like here is where I point to if I turn my finger back and point towards my head. But when I look at something (say the laptop or the wall on the other side of the room) the here seems harder to find.
V: Note how experience shows up in each moment. There are sounds, tastes, smells, colors, shapes, sensations, feelings, thoughts, mental images. Constant flux.
Now look….
Is there something receiving experience?
M: need to look more- but no
So, is there something receiving experience?
I can't find anything. I can't sense anything. Yes a constant flux of thoughts emotions sensations images. The experience is everything while it is happening until it is replaced by (flows into) another experience.

Thoughts come up about waking up (realizing thinking has been going on). But that is just another happening.

There is no-one receiving the experience that can be sensed or detected in any way.
Is there a receiving-end at all?
It seems as if objects are over there but there is no place that experience is being received.
But how can there be an over there, if there is no receiving end?
Thoughts say the must be an over there because everything can't be here. If this body gets up and walks a few steps it can touch the wall. Or if a road is being crossed then cars and other traffic is not where the body is (they are over there somewhere else).

But looking now I see that this is all thought.

Right now - it still feels like here is behind the eyes somewhere. But when something like the laptop is looked at directly the distance seems to disappear.
look at the display before you, and fix your gaze on an object, like a cup or table.
What is making the cup be over there? Over there compare to what?
Yes the more the cup is looked at the less the distance is seen.

What is making the cup over there... a thought says to pick up the cup this body's hand must reach out and grab it.
In order to be over there, there has be an over here. So where is the over-here?
Ha all that can be found is thoughts emotions sensations and the world - what is sensed.
Is there a self-directed, autonomous, independent, separate entity or a me, or Mike over-here?
I cant find one. Decisions , thoughts everything happens by itself.

Thanks Vivien

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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:01 pm

Hi Mike,
But it feels like here is where I point to if I turn my finger back and point towards my head. But when I look at something (say the laptop or the wall on the other side of the room) the here seems harder to find.
Yes. So let’s look what happens here.

Before seeing through separation, almost all of us believes that separation means that I am inside the body, probably in the head, this is what we call here, and there is a world out there. Thus there is a border or a dividing line between me and not-me. And this line is the skin, where the body ends. Everything inside the skin is me, everything outside the skin is not me.

So, in essence, I am the body, and everything else that is not the body, is not me.

Look, if this is how it seems to be.

But, is there someone or something INSIDE the body?
Can you find anything else inside the head than sensations?
Isn’t the body empty of a self / me?

Isn’t the body, including the head, shows up AS an experience? As an experience of sensations?


So the body is experienced, just as the body is experienced.
Or more precisely both the body and the laptop IS experience. Can you see this?

Normally we believe that the body is the subject of experience, the body is the experiencer, and it experiences the world out there. So the body, or more precisely the head, becomes a reference point in space, where the outside world (not me) is experienced FROM. So the seeming distance between here and over there is coming from the position of the body in space compare to other objects.

But how could there be distance if the body is just as much an experience than the world?
How could there be a distance or separation if the body is just one object among many?

Isn’t this just a thought based artificial division of experience / life / existence, slicing it into two distinct part, into a body here (me) and the world there (not me)?

But isn’t BOTH the body and the world is just an experience?


We are confusing the physical distance between the body and an object (which both are known, both are experience itself, and creating a false impression of separation between me and not-me.

But they are BOTH experience itself.
The body is NOT the experiencer the world.
The body is NOT a me / self.
They are equally ‘parts’ of experience / life / existence.
Can you see this?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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