Chris's thread

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chrisaaa
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Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:08 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I think that it is about being able to look at experience as it really is, to let go of the ego and it's petty desires and concerns. I hope that seeing there is is no self will make me a less selfish person as I'm prone to selfish behavior self-centered thinking. I want to be a better person, generally.

What are you looking for at LU?
I've been working on seeing through the self for a few months now (on and off). I've been working through the liberation unleashed book and found it helpful, but no luck so far. I really am desperate to see it. I'm hoping that a guide can show me exactly where I'm going wrong.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm hoping to pinpoint where exactly my confusion is. I feel like I kind of get most of what is said in the 'seven steps', as well as the rest of the book, and a lot of it really resonates with me. But it's still not clicking so I thought I would seek guidance from someone who knows more than I do.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been meditating on and off for about 8 years now. I've been taking it a lot more seriously over the the last 2 years. I've never been on a retreat or to a class but plan to in the future. I've found it very helpful and am eager to take to the next stage.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:26 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:17 pm

Hi, I'm so sorry, the email went into my junk so I didn't see it! yes, totally up for this, thank you so much for your time. I will try to post every day and be as honest as I can.

I'm am looking for clarity of mind and to understand my mind better. I want to be able to see things more broadly instead of being stuck in the story I always tell myself. I hope that I can observe my day-to-day experience with a sense of calm, for the waters to still. I spend almost all day, every day, in my head going over conversations, imagining conversations, arguments, petty disagreements, vaguely aware of how pointless it is. I want to be able to rise above this stuff so I can live more freely and fully. The image I have is the famous metaphor of the ocean, with thoughts and sensory experience being like waves; there is no center of attention, just the flow of experience.

I hope I have answered your questions honestly. Thank you again Vivien, it's nice to meet you.
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:51 am

Hi Chris,
Hi, I'm so sorry, the email went into my junk so I didn't see it! yes, totally up for this, thank you so much for your time. I will try to post every day and be as honest as I can.
That’s all right. The good thing is that you’ve eventually found the emails.

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
So here is the link to a video how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
I'm am looking for clarity of mind and to understand my mind better.
What if you don’t have a mind? What if there is no you to have a mind? What if there are only thoughts appearing to no one and owned by no one? Just free-floating effortlessly on their own?
I want to be able to see things more broadly instead of being stuck in the story I always tell myself.
This is based on the assumption that there is a real you, a real self outside the story. But what if there isn’t? What if all there is the I/me the thought-story itself?

What if being stuck in the story is just a part of the story?
I hope that I can observe my day-to-day experience with a sense of calm, for the waters to still.
Seeing through the self is not about getting into a state of an observer. Since an observer would still be the illusionary self, just now seemingly being detached from life, and just observing everything from a safe distance, where nothing can touch me. But this is still an illusion.

What if there is no observer whatsoever? What if life doesn’t happen to anyone? Just life happening but to no one?
I spend almost all day, every day, in my head going over conversations, imagining conversations, arguments, petty disagreements, vaguely aware of how pointless it is.
I hear you. This is the ‘normal’, everyday human condition. This is how it is for almost everybody.
But the freedom doesn’t lie in trying to get rid of these internal movies, but to see that they are not real, and not happening to anyone.
I
hope that seeing there is is no self will make me a less selfish person as I'm prone to selfish behavior self-centered thinking. I want to be a better person, generally.
Dear Chris, this inquiry is not about self-improvement. It’s about seeing that there is NO self at all.
This won’t change your behaviour. You won't become a better person. This is not about self-improvement.
If you are after self-improvement, then this inquiry might not be for you.

This inquiry is about ti see that the one who supposedly has behaviour is missing from the picture. It’s not there. It’s just IMAGINED to be there. There cannot be a better person if there is no person.
I want to be able to rise above this stuff so I can live more freely and fully.
But this is impossible. You cannot rise above this, since there is no you! There is no self, no I, no me, who could rise above anything.

Freedom doesn’t come from trying to rise above, rather to see that the you who you believe yourself to be is simply doesn’t exist.

When there is suffering or any unpleasant emotion, it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added on narrative.

And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.

Happiness or peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual.
Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

The image I have is the famous metaphor of the ocean, with thoughts and sensory experience being like waves; there is no center of attention, just the flow of experience.
This is a nice image, but that’s all. It’s quite popular to depict things with the ocean metaphor, but a metaphor is just that. A thought metaphor.

The thing is, that cannot know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside form the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character, and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?


This inquiry is about to see experientially:

There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement.


Is this what you want? Is this what you want to see experientially? Or are you rather after self-improvement?

It's not a problem if you are after self-improvement, but then this inquiry is not for you. So please really ponder on this post and what it is that you really want.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:21 am

Hi Vivien, good to hear from you.
Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
More than happy to do this, believe me. I think going over the same tactics over and over hasn't been working, so I'm ready to try something completely fresh.
This is a nice image, but that’s all. It’s quite popular to depict things with the ocean metaphor, but a metaphor is just that. A thought metaphor.
I think I've heard this metaphor so many times that it's actually what I've been going after. I'll put all expectations aside and just go where your questions take me.
Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?
More the tingling of excitement. I've felt resistance before, when inquiring myself, but now I feel like I can't wait to see it. I think just getting a guide has brought on a new attitude. Actually, I still feel some mild resistance at the prospect of there being no self, but none whatsoever at the thought of putting my expectations aside. Happy to abandon them altogether.
There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement.

Is this what you want? Is this what you want to see experientially? Or are you rather after self-improvement?
Most definitely. I think self-improvement was a big part of the reason I got into meditation in the first place. But a while a go now I read a book that talked a lot about no self and it really piqued my curiosity. When I dig deeper, it's the curiosity that's brought me hear. I've been trying hard to see it on my own but I feel like I'm not getting anywhere, but I cant give up now because the curiosity is always going to nag at me otherwise. I want to see the truth.

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:26 am

Hi Chris,
I want to see the truth.
Great! Then let’s start it.

What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?


Please be careful not to think about these questions, but actually sit and NOTICE how you think, how you do it exactly. So don’t go to theories, speculations, philosophy, or any learned information. Just notice what is happening here now in the immediacy of your own experience.

Please spend a whole day investigating these questions. Look again and again and again. Even if the answer seems to be clear, look more.

This investigation is about persistent repetition. Looking at the same thing again and again in experience, what brings about the realization.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:11 pm

Hi Vivien,

I did what you said, looked again and again, and I'll continue doing so.
What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?
‘I’ don’t do anything, thoughts arise on their own. I don’t think, it makes no sense to say ‘I think’ because I don’t know what my next thought is going to be until it happens, I don’t know how I’m going to react to something until I react to it. Does that make sense? So I don’t create the thoughts, they create themselves.

Still, theirs a sense in which I own the thoughts, they belong to me, they are my thoughts; like I’m stealing them. Bit of a mess to untangle there.

Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:58 am

Hi Chris,
‘I’ don’t do anything, thoughts arise on their own. I don’t think, it makes no sense to say ‘I think’ because I don’t know what my next thought is going to be until it happens, I don’t know how I’m going to react to something until I react to it. Does that make sense? So I don’t create the thoughts, they create themselves.
Yes, you did a nice investigation.
Still, theirs a sense in which I own the thoughts, they belong to me, they are my thoughts; like I’m stealing them. Bit of a mess to untangle there.

You say that you own thoughts. What is it that makes thoughts ‘mine’?
What is it that claims that thoughts are MY thoughts?

Does the seeming voice ‘in the head’, the commentator owns the thoughts?
Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the thoughts?

Where is this I, this supposed owner?
Does the word ‘Chris’ own them?
Does the word label ‘my’ own them?

And how do you know that thoughts are owned at all?

In order to own them, there has to be an owner. But is there one?

How does this owner perceived exactly?
How does this owner show up in this very moment?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:34 pm

Hi Vivien,

A lot to work with there, thanks. I found this round of questions much harder than the ones before. I feel like I'm going round in circles but here's what I came up with.
You say that you own thoughts. What is it that makes thoughts ‘mine’?
What is it that claims that thoughts are MY thoughts?
When I am watching my thoughts, totally aware of the fact that they arise on their own, then I see that they are not owned. They’re like an itch on my foot, or a rumble in my belly- just a fact of existence. It’s especially stark in the morning when I’m half awake.
But when I’m lost in thought, I identify with the thoughts completely- I am my thoughts. Even if I then become aware of my thoughts, the sense of ‘me’ sticks to them, claiming them. So it’s hard then to see them as self-generating.
Does the seeming voice ‘in the head’, the commentator own the thoughts?
Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the thoughts?
No, the voice in the head is the thinking itself, so it can’t own the thoughts- thoughts can’t own themselves (or can they?). The thought ‘mine’ is also a thought. It’s a label; a linguistic shorthand to communicate efficiently to someone about ‘my thoughts’. It doesn’t own anything.
Where is this I, this supposed owner?
It’s a feeling somewhere inside of ‘here-I-am-ness’ but I can’t point to its exact location.
Does the word ‘Chris’ own them?
Does the word label ‘my’ own them?
No again, these are just labels; they can’t own anything; though I feel like they contribute to the feeling of ownership. Saying my ‘my thoughts’ reinforces this sense.
And how do you know that thoughts are owned at all?
In order to own them, there has to be an owner. But is there one?
I strongly doubt that they are owned. I see when I’m waking up in the morning that they arise spontaneously without effort. But when I’m in the mindless thick of it, I just feel as though they are mine.
Whether I think there is an owner changes every 5 minutes. Writing that paragraph just now, I convinced myself that there is an owner- me! But when I first looked at this question this morning I was sure the answer was no. Not sure how to proceed on this one.
How is this owner perceived exactly?
How does this owner show up in this very moment?
It’s a feeling in my head and shoulders, scattered around. There’s no single point in space, just a sense of 'I am here’ looking out from behind my eyes. It’s the owner that also hears, tastes, smells etc.

Thanks,
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:40 pm

By the way, I'm working tomorrow so may not get a chance to post anything but I'll try my best.

Thanks again,
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:37 am

Hi Chris,
But when I’m lost in thought, I identify with the thoughts completely- I am my thoughts.
So WHAT is this I that identifies with thoughts?
WHERE is the I that can become thoughts (I am my thoughts)?

Do you believe that there is an I outside of thoughts?
That there is a real I, a real self, other than the thoughts of ‘I’ or ‘self’?

When I am watching my thoughts
Where is I that is supposedly watching thoughts?
But when I’m lost in thought, I identify with the thoughts completely
What is this I that could be lost in thought?

Is there an I / person / self / Chris / entity OUTSIDE of the real of thoughts?
And this I / person / self / entity / Chris could be lost IN thoughts?

It’s a feeling somewhere inside of ‘here-I-am-ness’ but I can’t point to its exact location.
This is where you have to focus.
Try to notice this FEELING ‘inside of here-I-amness’ as often as possible in the midst of your everyday life.

So how do you know that this FEELING is the feeling of ‘inside here I amness’ and not something else?
What makes this everyday feeling / sensation into a ‘inside here I amness’?
Why not call it a sensation or just a plain feeling?

No again, these are just labels; they can’t own anything; though I feel like they contribute to the feeling of ownership.
Is there a FEELING of ownership? Are you sure about this?
And how do you know that it’s the feeling of ownership, and not just a plain sensation?
It’s a feeling in my head and shoulders, scattered around. There’s no single point in space, just a sense of 'I am here’ looking out from behind my eyes. It’s the owner that also hears, tastes, smells etc.
Don’t you find it strange that you cannot find or localize your-self? Isn’t your-self should be your most intimate experience? The one that you know the most? And yet, you cannot even localize your-self?

So there are SENSATION in the head and the shoulders. Focus on these sensations, and FEEL them.
And while you FEEL these sensations, inquire:

Is this sensation of the shoulder the hearer?
Is this sensation the taster?
Is this sensation the thinker?
Is this sensation the feeler?
Is this sensation the smeller?

Is the shoulder-sensation watching thoughts?

Does the head-sensation tastes, smells, hears, feels and thinks?
Is the head-sensation watching thoughts?

Does a sensation have such powers?

Or a sensation is just a plain sensation?
By the way, I'm working tomorrow so may not get a chance to post anything but I'll try my best.
That’s all right. I’ve given you lots of pointers, enough for 2 days.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:09 pm

Hi Vivien,

I hope you're well. I'm very sorry but it's been really hot here the last couple of days; so hot it's actually taken it's toll on my ability to think thoroughly. So I don't feel like I've made a lot of progress. I'm very annoyed but here's what I've come up with anyway.
So WHAT is this I that identifies with thoughts?
WHERE is the I that can become thoughts (I am my thoughts)?
It’s just a feeling, like a cloud in my mind. It doesn’t exist anywhere exactly; it’s just a feeling, like an emotion or a thought. Though I’m feeling more and more like there is no me being lost in thought; there’s just being lost in thought. It’s not an absolute shift, but I feel as though it’s loosened a little.
Do you believe that there is an I outside of thoughts?
That there is a real I, a real self, other than the thoughts of ‘I’ or ‘self’?
No, it’s just a thought itself, so it can’t exist outside of thoughts.
Where is I that is supposedly watching thoughts?
Looking now, there is no I watching thoughts, nothing, emptiness, just thoughts appearing in consciousness. This thought in particular interests me; I’m going to keep coming back to it.

Is there an I / person / self / Chris / entity OUTSIDE of the real of thoughts?
And this I / person / self / entity / Chris could be lost IN thoughts?
No, these are all thoughts themselves. But the ‘I’ thought just has an all-encompassing effect; it clings to the rest of them. But like I said before, this effect seems to be weakening the more I look at it.
So how do you know that this FEELING is the feeling of ‘inside here I amness’ and not something else?
What makes this everyday feeling / sensation into a ‘inside here I amness’?
Why not call it a sensation or just a plain feeling?
Hard question. I don’t know since you ask. But then what is it? A feeling/sensation of what? And why does it feel like a self?
Is there a FEELING of ownership? Are you sure about this?
And how do you know that it’s the feeling of ownership, and not just a plain sensation?


Thinking now, no, there is no feeling of ownership; just thoughts happening.
Don’t you find it strange that you cannot find or localize your-self? Isn’t your-self should be your most intimate experience? The one that you know the most? And yet, you cannot even localize your-self?
Extremely strange, yes. What’s getting me is what’s this illusion even for? If we’re better off without it then why did we evolve to become ensnared in it?
Does the head-sensation tastes, smells, hears, feels and thinks?
I’ve checked each of these individually many times now and can honestly say no, it does nothing.

Thanks Vivien,
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:06 am

Hi Chris,
; so hot it's actually taken it's toll on my ability to think thoroughly.
But with looking you don’t need the ability to think.
Looking is NOT thinking. It’s the opposite.
Looking is experiencing with the 5 senses.
You don’t need your intellect at all. Actually it’s in the way of seeing the simplicity of WHAT IS.
It’s just a feeling, like a cloud in my mind. It doesn’t exist anywhere exactly; it’s just a feeling, like an emotion or a thought.
What is a feeling exactly? Isn’t a feeling a bodily sensation?
Or if there is no bodily sensation with the ‘feeling you are talking about’, then is that REALLY a feeling, or rather just a thought?
Looking now, there is no I watching thoughts, nothing, emptiness, just thoughts appearing in consciousness. This thought in particular interests me; I’m going to keep coming back to it.
Which thought interests you? Dear Chris, looking is NOT about thinking.
You will never ever be able to see through the self is you are thinking, or investigating thought contents.
Hard question. I don’t know since you ask. But then what is it? A feeling/sensation of what? And why does it feel like a self?
The problem is that you are speculating.
Speculating = thinking
Thinking now, no, there is no feeling of ownership; just thoughts happening.
Do you see that you are trying to think through these questions? Thinking is a dead-end. So I’m going to give you some exercises to help see the difference between experience and thinking.

Do you drink coffee or tea? Next time when you drink it, please investigate what is the difference between thinking about coffee and experiencing the coffee.

Is it possible to look at the coffee without thinking “this is a coffee, and I’m going to drink it”? Is it possible to EXPERIENCE it only by looking at it and SEEING it without thinking about it?

And when you take a sip, is it possible to just FEEL the warmth of it, without analysing and thinking why it’s warm, and how long will it stay warm?

And is it possible just to experience the TASTE of it, without analysing it, or thinking how bitter it is, or whether it needs some sweetener or not?

Is it possible to EXPERIENCE the SMELL of the coffee, without thinking “this smell reminds me of his or that”?


I would like to ask you to really try this out in reality, and not just think it through. In other words, not just think about it.
But of course, thoughts about it might happen! But that’s all right. You just ignore the thoughts, and you turn your attention to experiencing.

Do you see, I’m asking you the same thing: not just to think it through what I wrote above, but actually do it in experience. Do you see the difference?

This difference will be the basis of our investigation.

You cannot experience (see, feel, taste, smell) the coffee by thinking. You literally have to experience it.

Do you see clearly the difference between thinking and experiencing?

Please experiment throughout the day with all sorts of things. Like having dinner, washing your hands, going up a staircase, ect.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:09 pm

Hi Vivien,

OK I tried what you said. Yes I do see the difference between thinking and experiencing.

I also tried just looking at experience in general, and looking at thoughts as they arise. I also tried looking for the one who is looking and found nothing but I found that doing this for too long makes me very tired. Does this mean I'm doing it wrong?

Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:26 am

Hi Chris,
Does this mean I'm doing it wrong?
I have no way of knowing it, since you haven’t replied to the questions. If you don’t reply to each question one-by-one, I cannot give you more pointers, since there is nothing to base my questions on.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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