Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

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DC415
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Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:33 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have seen through the illusion of interpretation, that there is no 'David' that exists. There is a 'Davidness' or a way that The Self expresses through this body-mind but I am not that - I am the awareness that operates through it - I am life itself.

What are you looking for at LU?
It is not that unique - I had an awakening in 2014 when I saw clearly the illusory nature of the conceptual. I have moments of clear, unencumbered seeing yet desire to clear away any remaining identification with stories, beliefs and thoughts. In short, to rest in the Truth without effort and to allow life to unfold as it will.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
In short, support in looking - so that I see the snares or traps I still buy into. In short, to have support for the consistent, disciplined looking that is required to rest in freedom. At this time, I am able to see thoughts for what they are and 'understand' they are not true. That said, some identification is still 'sticky' - but seeing where the 'holds' are feels very subtle. I also sense that stories about 'me' are still held as true. For example, I have never felt I belonged her and that there is some lack of interest in truly leaning in to living. The sense of 'specialness' is fading but there are shades of believing that I still have to 'do something' about how I am looking. It's like I get there is no doer but still feel a responsibility for seeing through it. I am doing inquiry regularly as things arise yet find this can become just another practice. Ramana talked about inquiry as using a thorn to remove the thorn (of the "I thought") - There is still a concern that arises from separation that I won't get it or won't do it right. I do understand that is layering on top of the truth that I am always, already That.... but there is still this one trying to 'get it.' I really want to look at this and anything else DIRECTLY that is getting in the way of resting fully in awareness. In short, to stop oscillation that appears to be happening for me. I have also dealt with addiction and while things have improved since my awakening - I still see the propensity to 'use' to escape. As I said, this has lessened but there is still something here that 'escapes' reality. I deeply long for all this to stop and if the body-mind continues to use for what ever reason - at least to be at peace with that.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Been meditating since 1982. I spent about 15 years in Siddha Yoga that included living in an ashram and traveling to India for 6 months. I have also been involved in metaphysics through 'Science of Mind.' As I said, in 2014 I 'woke up' and this led me to spend time with Mooji in Portugal twice. I also worked with a non-dual teacher named Ramaji and most recently have been certified in Scott Kiloby's Inquiry Methods. I am starting to facilitate others and wish to be as clear as possible in my service to them.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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warissem
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:25 pm

Hi David

Welcome to the forum. I read your introduction post and I feel that you are already done. But, there are "things" to be clarified for you.
I do understand that is layering on top of the truth that I am always, already That.... but there is still this one trying to 'get it.' I really want to look at this and anything else DIRECTLY that is getting in the way of resting fully in awareness. In short, to stop oscillation that appears to be happening for me.
You said, that you are already That (means awareness) , but there is still this one trying to "get it" : what or who wants to get what? Awareness is already That, it does not need to get something. Now be clear to yourself : what is that one trying to get it? Look directly at this one and describe it for me.

About resting fully in awareness : awareness is already 24/7 . Who or what is wanting to rest fully in awareness?

About oscillations : is there a you for whom they are happening ?

Some rules of the forum :

Read the disclaimer text
Learn how to use quote function
Answer each question with 100 % honesty and on the basis of the looking at direct experience.

Thank you, Warissem

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DC415
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:09 pm

First, warissem - I apologize for the delay in responding. I assumed it would take a few days to be assigned a guide and did not check in. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.

You responded and asked:
You said, that you are already That (means awareness) , but there is still this one trying to "get it" : what or who wants to get what? Awareness is already That, it does not need to get something. Now be clear to yourself : what is that one trying to get it? Look directly at this one and describe it for me.
When I look for the one who is 'trying to get it'' - I can't find some entity, it is only a thought mixed with a feeling and sensation that makes the thought feel 'real.' I do realize the perception of David is made up, I get this intellectually and when I take the time to examine evidence of 'his' existence - again, I can't find anyone. Of course, who is the one trying to find David? This still seems to be something separate.

You also ask:
About oscillations : is there a you for whom they are happening ?
When I look there seems to be someone frustrated he is not 'getting it.' Again, just a thought mixed with feelings and sensations. I do have moments when this one disappears and the conditioning that makes David feel real is not present. It's just awareness that is aware of a localized existence.

It seems the 'triggers' that pull me back in are self-judgements. Again, just thoughts but at times they are very sticky and I buy into them. This body-mind has a propensity towards addictive behaviors. Through a lot of inquiry - these tendencies are thinning away but there is the experience of regret and shame that arise. When they do arise, I take the time to explore them - who is experiencing addiction or shame or regret? i pull these experiences a part in my awareness - looking at the thoughts and images - watching them. When I do this the thoughts dissolve in short order. Then I rest in the sensations remaining and allow them to be. When I do this, it appears there is an unhooking of identity around those tendencies.

I notice as I look there is still soemthing there longing to remain present to everything. And yet there is also a pull to follow certain urges. I probably need to look more deeply at this one who longs for something, right? Who is longing? What is he longing for? Clearly, this is still identification... something I must see through.

Namaste - David

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warissem
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:33 pm

Hi Steve

You are welcome.
When I look for the one who is 'trying to get it'' - I can't find some entity, it is only a thought mixed with a feeling and sensation that makes the thought feel 'real.' I do realize the perception of David is made up, I get this intellectually and when I take the time to examine evidence of 'his' existence - again, I can't find anyone. Of course, who is the one trying to find David? This still seems to be something separate.
Good. When you look you can’t find anyone but you don’t believe the seeing. It is like when someone shows to you that Santa Claus does not exist, you see the truth but you don’t believe it.
When I look there seems to be someone frustrated he is not 'getting it.' Again, just a thought mixed with feelings and sensations.
Do the feelings and sensations say that they are “someone” or there is just a thought of “someone” superimposed on the sensations. You need to know that there are words which point to objects and there are words which point to nothing.
I do have moments when this one disappears and the conditioning that makes David feel real is not present.
There is no one to disappear, the thought of it disappears. Is David reading these words ? Look and describe David. What is it in direct experience ? Is the body David? Is it a color? Is it a smell? Is it a sensation? Is it a taste? Is it a sound? Look and tell me what You are.
It's just awareness that is aware of a localized existence.
Yes.

[quote]It seems the 'triggers' that pull me back in are self-judgements. Again, just thoughts but at times they are very sticky and I buy into them. This body-mind has a propensity towards addictive behaviors. Through a lot of inquiry - these tendencies are thinning away but there is the experience of regret and shame that arise. When they do arise, I take the time to explore them - who is experiencing addiction or shame or regret? i pull these experiences a part in my awareness - looking at the thoughts and images - watching them. When I do this the thoughts dissolve in short order. Then I rest in the sensations remaining and allow them to be. When I do this, it appears there is an unhooking of identity around those tendencies. [/quote]
Yes, good observation. Is it awareness or your awareness ?
I notice as I look there is still soemthing there longing to remain present to everything. And yet there is also a pull to follow certain urges. I probably need to look more deeply at this one who longs for something, right? Who is longing? What is he longing for? Clearly, this is still identification... something I must see through.
Before answering to your questions, just LOOK at the one who is answering questions : YOU. What is “I”, give It a long look, an come up with your seeing, a description of “I”.

Question missed :
About resting fully in awareness : awareness is already 24/7 . Who or what is wanting to rest fully in awareness?

Warissem

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DC415
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:34 pm

Warissem, Thank you for your prompt response. It is deeply appreciated.

Let me respond to the question you had close to the end of your post:
Before answering to your questions, just LOOK at the one who is answering questions : YOU. What is “I”, give It a long look, an come up with your seeing, a description of “I”.
Question missed :
About resting fully in awareness : awareness is already 24/7 . Who or what is wanting to rest fully in awareness?
That's a great question! I would say there is something that is tired of experiencing separation, feeling something is broken and it can't be fixed - it wants out of the fray of trying to be something or someone... but of course that is still identification.

My sense is that the "I" is simply awareness looking at and experiencing form. There is something here reading your reply and typing these words. Void of thought - there is no one experiencing it - awareness is experiencing it but there is no individual experiencing it. That said, it appears very localized to this body-mind.

You go onto say:
Do the feelings and sensations say that they are “someone” or there is just a thought of “someone” superimposed on the sensations. You need to know that there are words which point to objects and there are words which point to nothing.
By themselves, sensations and feelings are just what they are and yes, the labels used by the mind attempting to define them are just words and conditioned meanings that mean nothing in the end. I sometimes wonder if the consciousness I am is seeking to experience certain things in this body-mind, just for the sake of it :). When I sense this, i relax realizing the experience is not me, I am simply the experiencer of some unfolding play. But that is just another interpretation that may have no utility.
There is no one to disappear, the thought of it disappears. Is David reading these words ? Look and describe David. What is it in direct experience ? Is the body David? Is it a color? Is it a smell? Is it a sensation? Is it a taste? Is it a sound? Look and tell me what You are.
I really like that - "there is no one to disappear" - it is the thought that dissolves or ends. David is not reading these words - awareness or consciousness is reading... It takes a second to get this with a shift in attention. There is just seeing and the awareness of it. That said, I still feel a kind of magnetic pull to identify - this is seen and as noted above - the 'magnetic pull' is just a sensation, nothing more. The body is not David, the senses are not David, thoughts are not David. Yet, there is clearly some conditioning that shifts attention back towards identification.

You ask this after referring to my quote about experiencing a pull of the urges and addiction
Is it awareness or your awareness ?
I know it is not "my awareness" - it is just awareness. But to be honest, while I have had glimpses - I only experience it as 'my awareness' rather than awareness itself.

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DC415
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:12 am

Warissem,

I needed to add to my thread. I need to be very honest. There is a lot of understanding in this mind about nonduality and I realize that means sqaut. Since my awakening in 2014, my life has been very challenging. I probably have not been near as earnest as I project. I am still addicted, have many financial challenges and have sucked at relationship and succeeding in work. There is judgement here but also measurable, visible things I can point to. I was not there for my daughter growing up, I suffer from a porn addiction that caused a lot of issues, this body-mind can't seem to get it's act together. Life grants me one opportunity after another and this one keeps sabotaging himself.

I realize non-duality will not answer these things... but my hope was that if I can be free, I can stop engaging in behaviors that harm myself and others. I am not expecting our exchange to fix any of this - that would be far too much to expect. I just wanted to be honest - my greatest hope is that I can begin to live moment to moment with a clear head and allow life to go as it will without this me who is ashamed of himself and feels broken.

Maybe that's too much to share but I needed to be honest. While I realize all of this is bullshit - another teacher told me once you wake up, life begins and you have a real chance to heal what you could not as a person. I don't get with all I see so clearly - why this body-mind still does not align more with what I know is true

Thank you - David

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warissem
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:18 pm

Hi David

As I read your answers, it seems that there is confusion. Sometimes you are clear about it, you say that it is awareness, sometimes you speak about something or someone. I said in my previous post, you don’t have to answer from what you know, from books. You answer to my questions after the seeing is done, that’s why I recommend you to LOOK at Direct experience which is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and sensations.

In the last post you wrote :
I realize non-duality will not answer these things... but my hope was that if I can be free, I can stop engaging in behaviors that harm myself and others. I am not expecting our exchange to fix any of this - that would be far too much to expect. I just wanted to be honest -
Thank you for your honesty, it is great for you to open your mind. Yes this forum won’t give answers to what you said but it could be of some help.
my greatest hope is that I can begin to live moment to moment with a clear head and allow life to go as it will without this me who is ashamed of himself and feels broken.
Yes. Life is already going without you but it seems that you are not clear about this. There is no you to be ashamed, there is no you to expect things to change, there is no you to experience things, there is no you at all, it has never been, it will never be.
Write down what is coming up after reading and ingesting the above assertions.

Thank you, Warissem

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DC415
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:34 pm

Yes. Life is already going without you but it seems that you are not clear about this. There is no you to be ashamed, there is no you to expect things to change, there is no you to experience things, there is no you at all, it has never been, it will never be.
I do get that there is no me intellectually and at times I experience it through my sensing. That said, it is my understanding that as we integrate after awakening, the goal is to see what's really there and not to bypass pain or discomfort. As shame appears or a reaction happens - I do inquiry to challenge the arising that has been strongly conditioned. With things like shame - thoughts combine with intense sensations and feelings that arise. The focus of inquiry seems to be to see various arisings as they are - just group of velcro'd thoughts, feelings and sensations that 'feel real' but aren't'. To see them AS I AM - As and From Awareness. If I look away from my experience, is that not discounting what really is happening? I am not the shame or sense of deficiency but it is arising in the mind and at times very intensely. I am NOT the shame or deficiency that is seen... I have been told by other teachers to be with it, don't look away, allow the experience to be as it is, not to look away or disassociate but to dive into what's happening now and explore it so that it can be seen for what it is.

That said, my second message above was coming from mind and small self. At times, I feel frustrated by the oscillation back into believing old patterns or conditioning. So that was just a dump from this place of desperation that sometimes arises.

Thus, is it not true that shame, self-deficiency stories, other beliefs must be seen through to experience the truth? Or are you saying, just by residing as awareness that's enough and we just have to bare what ever emerges without looking at it? I have found awareness and seeing clearly a great healing tool. It has benefits for the localized entity that is appearing as 'David-ness' He is not real but his appearance still interacts with the others. I hope that clears things up.

Thank you - David

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warissem
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:00 pm

Hi David

You are doing too much with your mind, a lot of discourses about YOU, You, Me, I, My, etc ... You are not looking at my questions. Put your attention on this :

There is no you to be ashamed, there is no you to expect things to change, there is no you to experience things, there is no you at all, it has never been, it will never be.
Write down what is coming up after reading and ingesting the above assertions.

Warissem

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DC415
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:03 am

There is no you to be ashamed, there is no you to expect things to change, there is no you to experience things, there is no you at all, it has never been, it will never be.
Reactions to this statement... mmm agreed. This is not experienced consistently here but there is agreement. That said, shame is also experienced, pain is felt, expectations are seen. They are just thoughts, feelings and sensations yet until they are seen for what they are, one cannot experience truth. Awareness must pierce the illusion by consistently resting in awareness (I Am) and when one cannot they must be seen through using self-inquiry.

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DC415
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:24 am

Warissem,

Apologies - that response did not answer it. Below is the revision:

I am that who is aware of those qualities but not any of them. If I look what knows this and it can't be found - only a feeling or sense is there that knows this. When I look directly that is experienced.

And you are correct, this mind is allowed too much room to be something. Thank you for pointing it out.

David

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warissem
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:53 am

Hi David

I will be clear with you. This forum is not to discuss about you and me, who is right or who is wrong. It is not to teach philosophy nor theology. It is not a diwan of a psychanalist.
You are here to see through the illusion ot the self.

Now, if you are here to do the INQUIRY and LOOK for yourself, you are welcome. If your goal is to discuss about awareness, consciousness, the Self, the teachers, etc ... there are a lot of forums on the web and in the universities.

You said that you are awake but when I read your posts, I noticed a confusion : you are not clear about the illusion of the self. It is not an understanding nor a book-knowing, it is a seeing and I feel that you have not seen it. That's why I am pursuing with you with questions to put you in the path of INQUIRY. The answer, it is said, is not in the mind, it is in LOOKING : where? In direct experience : what is going on right here right now. What is direct experience? It is seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and sensations; Now my question :

You use a hundred of times "I", "me", "my", .... Describe what is this "I" . Can you explain for the reader what "I" is? It is a simple question but you have to give the answer from the direct looking not from your memory.
If you give an answer from your understanding, it will be a lost of time for both of us.

Warissem

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DC415
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:57 pm

Warissem

There is no interest in debate or having a discussion yet it is seen that this has transpired in the back and forth. The desire is to be earnest and see clearly. Thank you for your directness and support.
You use a hundred of times "I", "me", "my", .... Describe what is this "I" . Can you explain for the reader what "I" is? It is a simple question but you have to give the answer from the direct looking not from your memory.
Agreed - too much of small self referencing.

What is this i? What is seen is that there is something that is aware of its existence. It is the awareness of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching and smelling. That is what is seen.

Thank you again for your patience and directness - David

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warissem
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:37 pm

Hi David
What is this i? What is seen is that there is something that is aware of its existence. It is the awareness of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching and smelling. That is what is seen.

Yes. Is there really something ? what is the relation between you and awareness ? What is you? what is awareness? in direct experience.

Warissem

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DC415
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Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:00 pm

Yes. Is there really something ? what is the relation between you and awareness ? What is you? what is awareness? in direct experience.
From awareness, the sense of 'you' is a thought construct that changes constantly in its appearance. So in the end, it is nothing. No 'you' exists separate from thought made to "feel real" when thought combines with feelings and sensations.

Now what is 'awareness' is a bit more challenging to answer in words. The closest way to describe it is that awareness is simply the experiencer of phenomena or maybe that which recognizes experience through the senses. It is always in the background of all experience.


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