Guidance for deep looking

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:04 am

Hi Vivien
V: Can a contracted sensation actually hurt you? Of course, it’s unpleasant, we are not denying that.
M: Not right now - probably - but a thought comes up that they will damage my body over time (high blood pressure /physical stress etc)
But do you see that not the original unpleasant sensation is causing the stress, but rather the THOUGHT that this could damage my body?
yes I see that - its def the thought that causes the stress.
Do you see and FEEL the physical effects of the thought ‘this could damage my body’?
Yes more physical contractions and emotions like fear etc.
Do you see that this thought is oil to the fire?
Yes I can see that the thought triggers emotions and more contractions making the sensations stronger - there's a back thought that the thought serves some purpose though - like a warning signal. But then when I go back and look at the sensations I can see the thought - this could damage my body - is def making the feelings stronger/worse.

Also been practicing with looking at reality versus thoughts. The thought this sensation is going to damage comes up out of no-where. Its not real in the sense of the sensations themselves. It comes and goes on its own.
If there is no separate I that makes decisions who is deciding to do this process
But what makes you think that there is someone or something deciding?
Out of habit I act as if there is an I doing stuff - when I look and don't find one, and see my thoughts coming and coming and realize that "i" just recognize them some time after they have formed - and see that the I feeling/thought is added on after and credit taken or blame taken for the thought (after) - then I can see all this stuff is just happening without a me (I flip flop in and out of seeing that).

Where I get stuck is with all the talk of effort and diligence (that I've heard before) and with the thought that effort has to be made to see this.

Saying effort needs to be made makes me think and act as if there is an I required to do it.
Do you think that deciding needs a doer?
When I look I can see there is no decider or doer. I was typing just now and decided to close my eyes to check if I could detect a doer. What made me do that at that moment? I have no idea. It felt like different thought settlign out then an impulse rising.

So I can see it makes sense that the decision to make effort works in the same way. Let me check some more.
What if THOUGHTS ABOUT deciding happens on their own?
Yes they do -

Just closed my eyes again - and decided to look at deciding :) Then opened them to type and closed again to look. Each time impulse to act popped up. When I look back I can see thoughts jumbling about before the decision.

If thoughts about deciding happen on their own then... mind blowing.
Check this out throughout your day. Look as often as possible, especially when there is a sense of “I did this or that” or “I decided…”
I was looking today but not enough I think - will do more today.
Is there actually something or something making decisions, or there are only THOUGHTS appearing ABOUT decisions automatically, on their own?
I can't find anyone making the decisions - so far just yes just thoughts about decisions - and the thoughts that I ahve done it appearing after the decision has been made!
What makes you think that in order for there being an effort, an efforter, or doer is needed?
Is this so? Or effort just happens on its own just as everything else?

Thanks Vivien this is something I've struggled with for a while. I ahve always had a belief that making effort requires an I to make them effort. Lots of conditioning school/work etc.

But looking I can see the effort rises up as a result of thoughts that is it required - again I will look at this soe more today as I think this whole effort thing is a stumbling block for me.
And what makes you think that there is an I, who is making decisions?
Is there an actual I, self in experience making decisions?
no
Or thoughts ABOUT decision just happen automatically, on their own, without anything making them happen?
yes this is what I see when I look
But at the same time effort or at least applying ourselves to regular looking is required...
But is there anything making effort and thus making looking to happen?
i haven't found anything - thought yes appear by themselves
But is there anything making effort and thus making looking to happen?
Or both efforting and looking happen automatically, on their own, EFFORTLESSLY?

I will look at this more today Vivien - I've see it when I look but want to look more...

Do you see that even effort happens EFFORTLESSLY, meaning automatically, on its own?
ok will check this out more today and get back to you.


Thnaks again. Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:45 am

Hi Mike,

Yes, please spend more time with this effort-thing.
If thoughts about deciding happen on their own then... mind blowing.
Yes, it is mind blowing. But what is even more mind blowing is that thought about decision (and any thought for that matter) has always happened on their own. It’s right in front of our nose, it’s so obvious, but we are blind to its obviousness, since we want to believe in something else.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:19 am

Hi Vivien
but is there anything making effort and thus making looking to happen?
Or both efforting and looking happen automatically, on their own, EFFORTLESSLY?
So far I haven't found anything making effort - yes it comes up automatically.

Do you mind if I summarize what I think we've looked at so far (pls correct me if I've misunderstood something) and ask you a few more questions?

So with thoughts

They come up on their own. If I sit now and look thoughts appear on their own one after another. I can find no one making the thoughts. They come up - appear on their own and trigger more thoughts and emotions. Thoughts cannot be stopped. And they are noticed after they have already begun - at that point the I thought / sensations labelled as I is added.

I can find no maker of effort. It arises by itself and is attached to other thought. Its felt as a physical contraction in the body which is labelled by a thought - which springs up on its own.

The I thought

I can't find an I - a controller anything separate that is in charge and doing things. I def can't find a thinker. Certain sensations are labelled by thoughts as I - but when I look they are just sensations.

Whats real and not real.

What can be sensed by the 5 senses is real. What can be seen heard touched smelt and tasted. Thoughts happen but their content is imaginary. Something real can be verified - I can touch the wall feel it is cold, hard, I can hear my hand knock against it. But if I think of a wall - now - I cant touch that wall it doesn't exist anywhere except in imagination.

When I properly see this all of the effort and trying and planning seem like a big joke. Totally ridiculous. I read somewhere in the past that we are all like children on one of those merry go round rides in a fairground with toy cars that just go round and round in a circle with the children turning the wheels thinking they are driving the car. But I guess in our case there are no children (in reality)...

All of this makes me ask what is here then?

And what about ppl that say we are awareness or prescence?

Thanks again Vivien :)

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:01 am

Hi Mike,
What can be sensed by the 5 senses is real. What can be seen heard touched smelt and tasted. Thoughts happen but their content is imaginary. Something real can be verified - I can touch the wall feel it is cold, hard, I can hear my hand knock against it. But if I think of a wall - now - I cant touch that wall it doesn't exist anywhere except in imagination.
Yes, nice description.
We have words for things that
can be experienced through the five senses.
Like there is a thought label ‘chair’ that is a name for an ACTUAL object/thing (the ‘thing’ called ‘chair’ itself).

And we have words that give a name/label to something that cannot be experienced through the five senses.
These “things” can only be THOUGHT OF, they don’t actually exist. They just imagined.
Like the ‘monster under the bed’, or Santa, or the Tooth Fairy.

That’s the difference between fact and fiction.


The word ‘chair’ names/labels something that can be touched, seen, and when you knock on wood, it can be heard.

What is the label ‘my-SELF’ a name for?


Please look everywhere. Find the ACTUAL, EXPEREINCABLE ‘thing’ that the word ‘my-SELF’ is a label/name for.
All of this makes me ask what is here then?
Good questions. But let me ask this a bit differently….

Is there an I here now in this very moment?
I can find no one making the thoughts.
What is this I that is looking, and can’t find no one making thoughts?
Is there someone actually looking?

What is it that is seeing that there is no thinker? Is there someone or something actually seeing it?

Is there someone doing this inquiry, and seeing that there is no thinker? Or this inquiry seeing no-thinker also happens on its own?
And what about ppl that say we are awareness or prescence?
Where is the we or the I?
Where and what is the ‘we’ / ‘I’ that identifies itself as awareness or presence?

What is it that could make or is making this statement?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:27 am

Hi Vivien

Sorry I didn't reply yesterday - but I was looking :)
And we have words that give a name/label to something that cannot be experienced through the five senses.
These “things” can only be THOUGHT OF, they don’t actually exist. They just imagined.
Like the ‘monster under the bed’, or Santa, or the Tooth Fairy.

That’s the difference between fact and fiction.

The word ‘chair’ names/labels something that can be touched, seen, and when you knock on wood, it can be heard.

What is the label ‘my-SELF’ a name for?
I would say the self is label for something that is assumed to be there - the core of a person I guess who makes decisions and is the essence of that person. Ha Ha. As it write this these words core and essence sound ridiculous and meaningless.

If I look now for the self/I then I found sensations in my face and head, thoughts, my internal voice - my thoughts that say this is familiar - thoughts about taking action , worry thoughts and emotions, physical contractions.

In experience I don't know what the self is - except for a collection of sensations and thoughts.
Please look everywhere. Find the ACTUAL, EXPEREINCABLE ‘thing’ that the word ‘my-SELF’ is a label/name for.

Yes have looked a lot - with direct looking I cant find the a self (a doer, a thinker etc).
Is there an I here now in this very moment?
I can find no one making the thoughts.

What is this I that is looking, and can’t find no one making thoughts?
Thanks Vivien - this question is v helpful.

This is what is experienced when I look

A thought arises. When "I" look I can't find anyone who made the thought - (I can see sometimes other thoughts that triggered it).

Then when I look for who can't find the thinker/ who is looking and not finding I cant find anything. There are more contracted sensations - a thought that "I" am looking back at myself - sometimes silence.

Then before long another thought pop up and I ask the same question "who thought that? or where is the thinker? or where did the thought come from? And I can't find anything - any self.

Then I ask who couldn't find anything again - round and round in circles :)
Is there someone actually looking?
I don't know. If I try to look to see what is looking or where the looker is - I just find the usual sensations and thoughts - they cant look.
What is it that is seeing that there is no thinker? Is there someone or something actually seeing it?
I can't find anyone.
Is there someone doing this inquiry, and seeing that there is no thinker? Or this inquiry seeing no-thinker also happens on its own?
Thanks again Vivien great question.

I can't find anyone doing this enquiry. Thoughts about doing it rise and fall. Emotions rise and fall. And the sense of an I involved in all of it comes and goes. But when I look all I find is muscular contractions and thoughts.
And what about ppl that say we are awareness or prescence?

Where is the we or the I?
I know that ppl talk about awareness - being awareness, settling in awareness, or presence. Or they say you are what is aware. There is one global concsciousness and that is you/us.

In truth I don't know what that means.

When I look I cant find the I - although when I don't look there is an assumption that there is an I.

I don't know what a we/concsiousness would look or feel like. Its a word to describe the process of looking/ sensing what can be seen, heard, smelt and being aware of thoughts.

But as I write this it gets more confusing.

If I look I see my lap top/bed. I hear a lorry driving past then the ringing in my ears. I feel the bed underneath me.

I can feel sensations in my body and am aware of thoughts and emotions.

But I cant find any we or I.
Where and what is the ‘we’ / ‘I’ that identifies itself as awareness or presence?
Ha Ha good question.

Cant find it.
What is it that could make or is making this statement?
Again don't know - the statement rises up by itself.


Thanks again Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:53 am

Hi Mike,
In experience I don't know what the self is - except for a collection of sensations and thoughts.
Are you saying that sensations are a self?
And thoughts are also a self?

What makes sensations into self, into an I?
And what makes thoughts into a self, into an I?

Can the collection of thoughts and sensations be an REAL, aware, thinking, feeling entity?

I can't find anyone doing this enquiry. Thoughts about doing it rise and fall. Emotions rise and fall. And the sense of an I involved in all of it comes and goes.
What is this sense of an I? Please describe it as precisely as you can without any theory or speculation.
Just the pure, experiential facts of it.
I know that ppl talk about awareness - being awareness, settling in awareness, or presence. Or they say you are what is aware. There is one global concsciousness and that is you/us.
There are lots of misunderstanding about this topic. Lots of theories and speculations depicted as actual truth.
It doesn’t matter what others say… the only thing that matters what is seen in your own immediate experience.
being awareness, settling in awareness, or presence
In order to be awareness, there has to be something other than awareness, which identifies itself as an awareness.
And setting in awareness? – In order to this happen, there has to be someone WHO is SETTLING IN awareness.
So check it out.

Look for the ‘thing’ that could settle in awareness or in presence. What is that? And where is that?

What could settle in awareness? A thought? A sensation? The head? The chest? Or the word ‘I’? An image? The body? The concept of a self? An emotion? Or what exactly?
V: What is it that could make or is making this statement?
M: Again don't know - the statement rises up by itself.
Yes. And in what form? Isn’t it just a thought?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:51 am

Hi Vivien
In experience I don't know what the self is - except for a collection of sensations and thoughts.

Are you saying that sensations are a self?
No def not - when I look I can see that sensations are not the self - they come and go, they don't control anything, thoughts and actions don't come from sensations. When I don't look though there is an assumption/thought that still arsies that the sensations are part of me.

The thought says the sensations are familiar and comfortable emotion comes up.

But when I look at sensations I can see they are not the self. They can be observed - they come and go. They obviously cannot control anything. They are just sensations - that change with different emotions for example.
And thoughts are also a self?
No - a self would always be here and would control and produce thoughts or at least be aware of them.

Looking now - thoughts - arise by themselves in response to other thoughts and events in the world - like an alarm going off , or some story in the news.

Sensations of effort and different emotions follow the thoughts.

Yes I can find no maker of thoughts or sensations or the feeling of effort - but from habit there is usually an assumption/thought that thoughts are made. (unless I look)

Can the collection of thoughts and sensations be an REAL, aware, thinking, feeling entity?
No I've looked and not found this. No a collection of thoughts and emotions cant be it. ( a real aware entity).
I can't find anyone doing this enquiry. Thoughts about doing it rise and fall. Emotions rise and fall. And the sense of an I involved in all of it comes and goes.
What is this sense of an I? Please describe it as precisely as you can without any theory or speculation.
The sense of an I is a combination of thoughts spoken in my voice, soem physical contractions in the face.

Its difficult to pin down.

There are sensations/contractions of muscles in the face and the voice in the head, and the feeling of someone doing or watching.

When I look at/for this sense of I - I find the sensations in the face, lots of thoughts and emotions arising, the vocie in the head talking in a familiar way (or in a way that is labelled as familiar).

And there is a thought or assumption that this is the doer/self.

The closer I look the less this bundle of sensations and thoughts and emotions seems to be an I - then some pereceived threat arises and the belief in this I comes back again.

(For example I recently heard that I may have less work in coming months and may be short of money. Thoughts about that come up and make the I feeling/belief stronger.

Or if the thought coems up - I have to finish this so I can read some work before 9am - for example)

look for the ‘thing’ that could settle in awareness or in presence. What is that? And where is that?
ha there's nothing here to do that . Feelings of settling/comfort/peace come and go but I cant find anyone to settle in it.
What could settle in awareness? A thought? A sensation? The head? The chest? Or the word ‘I’? An image? The body? The concept of a self? An emotion? Or what exactly?
A thought no -

A sensation -no

a word no.
V: What is it that could make or is making this statement?
M: Again don't know - the statement rises up by itself.
Yes. And in what form? Isn’t it just a thought?
Yes always just a thought - with emotion / snesatiosn attached.

Thanks again, Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:04 am

Hi Mike,

You did a nice investigation :)
There are sensations/contractions of muscles in the face and the voice in the head, and the feeling of someone doing or watching.
“ and the feeling of someone doing or watching” – where is this feeling of someone doing or watching?
Is this an actual feeling?
the vocie in the head talking in a familiar way
How do you know that the voice is in the head?
Do thoughts appear in the head? Is this an experience or just an assumption?
The closer I look the less this bundle of sensations and thoughts and emotions seems to be an I - then some pereceived threat arises and the belief in this I comes back again.
Yes, this is how it works.

This needs to be seen many-many times. Investigate this sense of self any time when it’s seemingly there.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:24 am

Hi Vivien - thanks for your continued help :)
You did a nice investigation :)
thanks :)
There are sensations/contractions of muscles in the face and the voice in the head, and the feeling of someone doing or watching.
“ and the feeling of someone doing or watching” – where is this feeling of someone doing or watching?

Is this an actual feeling?
actually after looking I dont think there is a feeling of someone looking - there are sensations in the face - which i can feel now - they change as different emotions come up. Looking I cant actually find a doer - I've been looking quite a lot yesterday and think this is starting to sink in as I see in in lots of situations.

Sometimes seeing this this triggers some thoughts and an unsettled feeling - nothing overwhelming, but there is a worry thought saying what is left?

Watcher - I can't find any thing watching.
the voice in the head talking in a familiar way
How do you know that the voice is in the head?
From direct experience I don't - but I asume it is.

The voice is sensed not really any particular location - thoughts say it is in my head - where else could it be.
Do thoughts appear in the head? Is this an experience or just an assumption?
Yes an assumtpion.
This needs to be seen many-many times. Investigate this sense of self any time when it’s seemingly there.
Let me know what you find.
ok doing quite a lot of looking yesterday - generally loooking at the sense of self (by this I mean the snesations/thoughts that have been labelled as self).

After a while this seems to sink in. The non doership seems easier - for example I can watch my hands driving the car or watch myself shaving in the mirror or brushing my teeth all without any control. With thoughts I realize they are happening often when some emotion rises up. They often have been going on sometime and I cannot say that there was any control of them whatsoever.

I don't what I'm going to say or think next.

Then looking for the I - yes all I get is sensations in the mouth/face/eyes- the voice and the thought/assumption that that is me.

There are some worry thoughts like- what will be left and sometimes a thought of being erased - but no overwhelmign or strong emotions right now.

And sorry to bring up something I read before but there's also a worry thought about getting depressed or not seeing the value in the world (sort of nihilism).

These thoughts aren't coming with strong emotions and are not stopping me looking - in fact there is a drive to look. But I thought it was worth mentioning in case they are blocking me.

Thanks again
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:41 am

Hi Mike,
And sorry to bring up something I read before but there's also a worry thought about getting depressed or not seeing the value in the world (sort of nihilism).
If nihilism comes up, then it’s the self hasn’t been seen through fully. There might have been some glimpses and those glimpses are being interpreted through the belief in the self. Since only a self could wonder, “what is the point of all this?” “if there is no me, then why live or exist at all?” or “what will be left of me? - nothing will be left of me”.
These concerns are all about ME. What seeing through the self MEANS TO ME.

When the self is really seen through, these concerns won’t make much sense anymore.
I hope this helps.
actually after looking I dont think there is a feeling of someone looking - there are sensations in the face - which i can feel now - they change as different emotions come up. Looking I cant actually find a doer - I've been looking quite a lot yesterday and think this is starting to sink in as I see in in lots of situations.
You did a nice investigation.
Then looking for the I - yes all I get is sensations in the mouth/face/eyes- the voice and the thought/assumption that that is me.
Since sensations also play a role in the self-illusion. So we are going to start investigating the body and sensations. The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating the seeming ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on verbal or visual thoughts:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:10 am

Hi Vivien
Can it be known how tall the body is?
No

Does the body have a weight or volume?
there's a feeling of pressing (against the bed) - not of volume - the pressure is interpreted as weight
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No = lots of different sensations light and heavy, a thoughts about a form (images of legs and arms etc pop up)
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
cant feel one - but thought says there is
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
again cant feel one - but thought says I can stand up and will be separate then.
Is there an inside or an outside?
Interesting - if I close my eyes I can't feel any inside outside.
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
from direct experience there are just sensations - ad thoughts which say there is an inside
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
from direct experience its difficult to know what that means - can't sense any outside. Can't actually sense a body with arms and legs etc - when I touch something sensations change.
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
When I read body I see an image of it - I use body part words to communicate e.g hold this with your left hand. The direct experience of a body doesn't match up with the word at all.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Sensations of all different types - sense of pressure, movement, tension not tension etc.

Thanks a lot Vivien -(did a lot of looking on long drive yesterday - looking at thoughts again - I really cant find anyone doing them - seems to sinking in a little more.

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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:25 am

Hi Mike,

You did a nice investigation.
Thanks a lot Vivien -(did a lot of looking on long drive yesterday - looking at thoughts again - I really cant find anyone doing them - seems to sinking in a little more.
I’m glad to hear that :)
there's a feeling of pressing (against the bed) - not of volume - the pressure is interpreted as weight
Yes.
So do you see that the raw sensation itself doesn’t communicate anything about ‘pressure’, it’s just an added thought interpretation on the experience of the raw sensation?
V: Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
M: cant feel one - but thought says there is
Exactly. There is no boundary.
Check this out.

Are there two sensations there: one for the skin, and another sensation for clothing touching the skin? Or there is only one sensation, and only thoughts and visual images suggesting otherwise?
V: Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
M: again cant feel one - but thought says I can stand up and will be separate then.
But when you say “I can stand up and will be separate then”, you are talking about the body right?

So self = body, or the self is believed to be INSIDE the body?

So when there is 'standing up', what is it that stands up? An I stands up? A self stands up? Or just the body standing up?



No separation is not about not being able to see a distinction between the body and a chair (or any other object). Not at all. If that would be the case than you could be in a big trouble. If there were no distinction between the body and its surroundings, then how would you which mouth to put the food in? Or how would you be able to jump from a car if it were getting too close to the body?

No separation is not about the body.
It’s about whether there is something or someone INSIDE the body, using the body’s senses, and looking through the eyes, like two windows.
from direct experience its difficult to know what that means - can't sense any outside. Can't actually sense a body with arms and legs etc - when I touch something sensations change.
Yes, nice observations :)
V: What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
M: Sensations of all different types - sense of pressure, movement, tension not tension etc.
Yes. So the word ‘body’ is actually a label on sensations. Is this clear?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:39 am

Hi Vivien
there's a feeling of pressing (against the bed) - not of volume - the pressure is interpreted as weight
Yes.
So do you see that the raw sensation itself doesn’t communicate anything about ‘pressure’, it’s just an added thought interpretation on the experience of the raw sensation?
Yes I see that - the sensation itself is just more intense than elsewhere in the body and that is interpreted as a pressure feeling.
V: Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
M: cant feel one - but thought says there is
Exactly. There is no boundary.
Check this out.

Are there two sensations there: one for the skin, and another sensation for clothing touching the skin? Or there is only one sensation, and only thoughts and visual images suggesting otherwise?
Yes yes thats right - one sensation - i keep looking for a boundary because thought tells me there is one but from direct experience I can't find one.
V: Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
M: again cant feel one - but thought says I can stand up and will be separate then.
But when you say “I can stand up and will be separate then”, you are talking about the body right?

Ha - yes talking about the body.
So self = body, or the self is believed to be INSIDE the body?
Yes there is a thought/belief saying the self is inside the body. When I look I can't find a self - a controller - or any separate I.

(I'm not clearly aware of the thought that a self exists in the body but there is I think an assumption that somehow it does - sorry cant be clearer).
So when there is 'standing up', what is it that stands up? An I stands up? A self stands up? Or just the body standing up?
Ha good question :)

It feels like I am standing up. Yes when I look I can't find the self/I just thoughts/the internal voice/sensations around the face but there is an assumption that I am standing - and that this I is somehow in the body not in the door or the wall.

No separation is not about not being able to see a distinction between the body and a chair (or any other object). Not at all. If that would be the case than you could be in a big trouble. If there were no distinction between the body and its surroundings, then how would you which mouth to put the food in? Or how would you be able to jump from a car if it were getting too close to the body?

No separation is not about the body.
It’s about whether there is something or someone INSIDE the body, using the body’s senses, and looking through the eyes, like two windows.
from direct experience its difficult to know what that means - can't sense any outside. Can't actually sense a body with arms and legs etc - when I touch something sensations change.
V: What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
With eyes closed there are sensations of different intensities and images of various body parts which pop up. The sensatiosn do not correspond with the images of body parts - nor with what is seen when the eyes are opened.

The are sensations of movement (from breathing) as well.

With eyes open hands can be seen moving -typing and arms. The sensations are still here.

Yes. So the word ‘body’ is actually a label on sensations. Is this clear?
Yes that's v clear

Thanks Vivien

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:53 am

Hi Mike,
(I'm not clearly aware of the thought that a self exists in the body but there is I think an assumption that somehow it does - sorry cant be clearer).
It’s not just simply a thought based belief, but also a seeming feeling. Usually, it’s a feeling that I am behind the skin, the skin is a boundary between me and the world. What is inside the skin is me, what is outside the skin is not me. But if we try to pin down where I am exactly, it usually SEEMS that I am inside the head, somewhere behind the eyes. This is the place where I think, hear and see the world (which is out there), looking out the eyes, like two windows.

So is this how it feels for you, that I am inside the head and looking out the eyes, like two windows?
It feels like I am standing up. Yes when I look I can't find the self/I just thoughts/the internal voice/sensations around the face but there is an assumption that I am standing - and that this I is somehow in the body not in the door or the wall.
Exactly! This is the illusion.

So the bodily sensations are interpreted to be me. So when the body stands up, it’s believed that I am standing up.
So there is an identification with the body.

So what is it that identifies with the body, and says when the body stands up, that ‘I am standing up’?
What makes the body into an I, into a self?
M: With eyes closed there are sensations of different intensities and images of various body parts which pop up. The sensatiosn do not correspond with the images of body parts - nor with what is seen when the eyes are opened.
The are sensations of movement (from breathing) as well.
With eyes open hands can be seen moving -typing and arms. The sensations are still here.
Nice observations.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:56 am

Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:55 pm

Hi Vivien
(I'm not clearly aware of the thought that a self exists in the body but there is I think an assumption that somehow it does - sorry cant be clearer).

It’s not just simply a thought based belief, but also a seeming feeling. Usually, it’s a feeling that I am behind the skin, the skin is a boundary between me and the world. What is inside the skin is me, what is outside the skin is not me. But if we try to pin down where I am exactly, it usually SEEMS that I am inside the head, somewhere behind the eyes. This is the place where I think, hear and see the world (which is out there), looking out the eyes, like two windows.

So is this how it feels for you, that I am inside the head and looking out the eyes, like two windows?
Pretty much - yes - I feel like I am here - in the head - I don't feel like there are two windows I am looking out of but I do feel like I am back here behind the eyes - yes.
So the bodily sensations are interpreted to be me. So when the body stands up, it’s believed that I am standing up.
So there is an identification with the body.

So what is it that identifies with the body, and says when the body stands up, that ‘I am standing up’?

I don't know - there is a thought/belief (not in words) that this is me. The viewpoint changes. I can't find anything that says the body is me though. Just thoughts and sensations.

Through the day there are thoughts about looking after the body, and not damaging it (say with exercise) and eating the right stuff etc. which leads to thoughts about it being mine and needing my attention to keep healthy.
What makes the body into an I, into a self?
The belief is that "I" am in the body because it is mine. There is a belief that I can move it for example and that no-one else can, and that "I" am housed in it in some way. When the body is threatened in any way the sense that it is mine where the I is increases. There are emotions/sensations and an urge to protect it.

But looking now - there's no way that the body is an I ( a controller of thoughts or actions or an observer). There are a bundle of sensations which don't match the seen body. As you say body is a label for what is seen/felt.

Its more like the body feels like its mine - and precious.

Then I go back to looking for the I who owns the body... and get the same sensations in the face/internal voice and thought that I am here ( as you say feels like somewhere behind the eyes.) There's a muscular contraction behind the eyes which comes and goes.

When I look I can clearly see the sensations and voice are not the self/I. I think there is a belief that it i still here somewhere and running things.
M: With eyes closed there are sensations of different intensities and images of various body parts which pop up. The sensatiosn do not correspond with the images of body parts - nor with what is seen when the eyes are opened.
The are sensations of movement (from breathing) as well.
With eyes open hands can be seen moving -typing and arms. The sensations are still here.
Nice observations.
thanks :)

Mike


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