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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:55 pm

Hi John,
Hey sorry for the confusion.
It's ok :-) Because we have only this as a communication - clarification is needed in order to see where we are.

And again to be clear, I see that deciding just happens.

What is it that not just happening?

Is there any doing?

Is thinking a doing or a happening?

Is deciding a doing or a happening?

What about moving, walking, eating, are these doing or happening?

Is there any control over anything? Anything at all?


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:35 am

Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:34 pm

hey great.

Looking forward to answering these questions.

Can we just clarify what is the difference between a doing and a happening?

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:47 pm

Hi John.

Can we just clarify what is the difference between a doing and a happening?
But it is you, who have to answer this question.

What is the differenece between these?

What do you find?


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:13 pm

I think the difference between a doing and a happening. Is in that the doing is being done by someone or something. The happening on the other hand does not require a somebody to make it happen.
What is it that is not just happening?
Nothing. All just happens and occurs. There is no part of it that does not just occur. That does not just show up.
Is thinking a doing or a happening?
Thinking is not done. Thinking happens. It may be said "I am thinking". Though it is all just happening. The speaking happens. The shift of focus onto the thoughts happen. The feeling of thinking happens. And the thoughts and thinking happen. There is no one doing anyone of these things.
Is deciding a doing or a happening?
Yep a happening. It happens. A decision just shows up, with nothing at all that made it.
What about moving, walking eating are these doing or happening?
All is a happening.
Is there any control over anything? Anything at all?
No there isn't. There is no control over anything. And it's strange. There are thoughts that arise which are about decisions and which one this "John" should make. Though those thoughts just arise. And then a decision arises. There is no control as there is no "I" doing any of these things there are only these things happening. Though there is a getting lost in, thoughts about there being no one making a decision, and at the same time thoughts about which decision to make. Though they all just happen.

Even this writing has to be within all of that. Not controlled by anyone, but just happening. Just writing occuring. No one here to control it. No one here to write.

Still something missing, will look and write a follow up soon.

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:24 am

Hi John,

apologies for the delay with my reply.

Thank you for your answers.

Even this writing has to be within all of that. Not controlled by anyone, but just happening. Just writing occuring. No one here to control it. No one here to write.
And how does it feel to see this?

Still something missing, will look and write a follow up soon.
Ok, Looking forward.

Can you describe what is it that is missing exactly?
As precisely as you can.

Can you write as well what happens in your everyday life when you not looking and not thinking about this inquire, but just living the everyday life, does it feel like that I am thinking, I am choosing, I am deciding, I am feeling emotions and sensations?


Please, look at this very honest and write what comes.


Much love
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:39 pm

and how does it feel to see this?
Nothing particular. It just is. And clearly also how it has always been. There is no particular feeling that comes up.
What is missing exactly?
When I wrote this I had not looked at it sufficiently. Nothing seems to be missing.
Can you write as well what happens in your everyday life when you not looking and not thinking about this inquire, but just living the everyday life, does it feel like that I am thinking, I am choosing, I am deciding, I am feeling emotions and sensations?
Yes and no. There are thoughts about I that come up. Though there are also thoughts about the fact that the "I" that has been discussed is not present. Less ownership over the things that happen.

Nonetheless, it is often forgotten that there is no one doing feeling thinking, and often all of these things continue as they use to. With worry about the "I", whether for its safety, the impression it is making, and more.

Whenever though these things are looked at directly it is seen that there is no one doing them.

Thank you
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:07 pm

Hi John.

Nonetheless, it is often forgotten that there is no one doing feeling thinking
This reply is comming from intellectual understanding and not from real seeing.

Remembering and forgetting could happen only on that ( intellectual) level.

What is it exactly that is coming when "it is often forgotten?"

Isn't it just a thought, which claims to remember something?

"Though there are also thoughts about the fact that the "I" that has been discussed is not present. "
Can you read your reply again? Look with honesty - it is intellectual.
This is not a discussion that we are doing here.
We do not discuss if the self is present or not.
We do not discuss if there are thoughts about there being no-self.
We LOOK directly at experience to see IF there is a self there at all.

For this looking you don't have to remember anything. You don't have to forget anything. You don't have to wait the thought of no-self to shows up in order to say - yes, now I see, there is no-self.

You might think you see it clearly, but it is only intellectual understanding.

It is very, very simple, John. I'm sure you've heard this many times. And in fact it is that simple.
Much simplier that anything you can figure out with your intellect.
The intellect is wonderful tool, but it doesn't help us in this inquiry.

Please read carefully my whole reply and write what comes up.

Much love to you
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:25 pm

Hi Luchana,

I had an issue with logging in.

I have read your post and agree that the understanding is intellectual. I have read your post and am met with uncertainty, am not sure how to continue, shall we just keep looking?

Over the past week, there has been a lot of looking. And also with it a lot of confusion.

What is seen repeatedly is that the seer is just a feeling, or a thought assigning that feeling the label of the seer. Though in that sense it is just another thing that is perceived just like what is seen.

Anyway I am open and excited to continue this conversation with you.

Thank you as always,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:39 pm

Hi John,
I had an issue with logging in.
Yes, and thank you for finding the way to inform me - I receive a message from the admin of the forum :-)

I have read your post and am met with uncertainty, am not sure how to continue, shall we just keep looking?
The most important thing is that the desire to continue is present. Whatever time is will take to see this experiencially - I am here with you.

First let's go back to the last questions form my previouse message:
Nonetheless, it is often forgotten that there is no one doing feeling thinking


This reply is coming from intellectual understanding and not from real seeing.

Remembering and forgetting could happen only on that ( intellectual) level.

What is it exactly that is coming when "it is often forgotten?"

Isn't it just a thought, which claims to remember something?



We will continue looking and investigating thoughts for what they really are with some practical exercises. But also apply this in your daily life. Each time when possible - investigate. Use every opportunity. Be alert and look. Every time when there is a feeling that "I am thinking", "I am choosing", "I am thinking" look - is there a real thinker, or chooser at experiencer.


Now close your eyes for a minute or two and think about the magic golden ring, that you hold in your pocket.
It is a lovely golden ring, a big one. And it is right here in your pocket.

Now open your eyes and put your hand in the pocket. I mean you have to literally put your hand in the pocket.

Is there a ring there?

Is there something you can touch, see, or taste? Or the ring appears only as an imagination/thought?

Even that you think about it and maybe have a feeling that there is a ring - is there a REAL ring in your pocket?

Where did the ring goes?

Has the ring ever existed?



Look directly at experience while investigating.
It is very, very simple.

There is a thought "I have e ring in my pocket" - that's for sure.

But what about the content of this thought? Is it true?

Is there a ring in reality?


There is a thought about me, about a seer, about a doer, about a thinker

But is this (thought) true in reality?



Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
Posts: 55
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:03 am

Hello,
What is it exactly that is coming when "it is often forgotten?
Isn't it just a thought, which claims to remember something?
Yeah, it is exactly that. A thought just shows up. And the content of it gives me the idea. I agree.
But what about the content of this thought? Is it true? Is there a ring in reality?
I see what you are getting at. There is no ring in reality just the thought of the ring.
But is this thought true in reality?
The thought is true in that thought is perceived. The content of the thought is not true.

Best,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:33 pm

Hi John,

I will be able to give you a reply tomorrow.

You can just keep looking in your daily activities.

Much love,

Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Luchana
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:53 pm

Hi John,
There is no ring in reality just the thought of the ring.
Just to check - Is it possible that there might be a ring and you just don't see it?

The thought is true in that thought is perceived.
Can perceiving of a thought be separate from the thought?

Is there a thought without perceiving?


Look at the wall in front/or around you.

Is the perceiving (of a colour) separate from the colour?


Play with these as much as it's possible.
Look at the simplicity.



Much love
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:35 am

Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:41 pm

Hi Luchana,
Just to check - Is it possible that there might be a ring and you just don't see it?
Here you seem to be asking if it is possible for something to exist without it being perceived.
Is it possible that there is a ring that I do not see, similarly you ask is there thought without perceiving of it.

Am not sure. I have spent the past few days looking. And I do not know if something can exist outside of my awareness of it. It would not be known if it were not percieved, though am unsure that all that exists is that that I percieve. Though I cannot find a way to prove it to myself either way.

I cannot tell if there is anything outside of perception, just as I cannot tell if there isn't anything outside of perception.

All that I know is perception.
Can perceiving of a thought be separate from the thought?
No. What is described as thought is the perception of thought. No thought is known, only the perception of the thought is known.
Is there a thought without perceiving?
Again am not sure. All I can say is that there is perception of a thought. I do not know if there is a thought that is being percieved.
Is the perceiving (of a colour) separate from the colour?
No the color is only known through the perception of it.

Thank you for your questions,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:29 am

Hi John,

You're tend to go in thinking again and I know how quick this can happen.
It gets tricky, because thoughts do happen in experience, but for the inquiry we need to distinguish between the world made by thought and the world we find in direct experience. So I'm not asking you in general how things are, but rather asking to look in your direct experience to really see this for yourself.
Am not sure. I have spent the past few days looking. And I do not know if something can exist outside of my awareness of it

How “my awareness” is experienced?

How ‘my awareness’ is perceived exactly?

As a thought? A sensation? An imagination?

Does this statement match the immediate experience?

Can you find anything in your direct, actual experience called "awareness"?

Or there is just an experience?

Is there knower and the known?

Or is there only the known?


Don't think about the answer, but LOOK for the aswer.
The simplicity of reality is "hidden" in your imediate experience.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:35 am

Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:50 pm

Thank you Luchana.
How “my awareness” is experienced?
My awareness is not experienced.
How ‘my awareness’ is perceived exactly?
My awareness is not perceived, when I say "my awareness", I am talking about the perceiving itself.
As a thought? A sensation? An imagination?
None of the above.
Does this statement match the immediate experience?
I do not know what is meant with this question.
Can you find anything in your direct, actual experience called "awareness"?
No, I do not find the direct actual experience of awareness as I find the direct actual experience of eating an apple or seeing the sky.

Nonetheless, there clearly is awareness. As both the image of the sky and the taste of the apple are perceived.

To be honest Luchana I find myself confused, as you just asked in your previous message "Is there a thought without perceiving?" referring directly to what I would call awareness. And now in these questions seem to suggest that this awareness is itself just a concept.
Or there is just an experience?
Yes, all that is known is experience, perception. Though it is known! Right? There is experiencing, there is perceiving. Is there experience without perceiving it? Can they be separated?
Is there knower and the known? Or is there only the known?
What about the knowing? Is there known without knowing? There cannot be.

I will keep looking. Though am a bit confused.


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