I need help

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:12 pm

Hi Nessie,
But really is there a self?

Is there any self outside thoughts about a self and further thoughts relating to previous self referencing thoughts?

No.

So if no one is in control what is the implication of this?

That everything is just happening.

Great. Sounds unequivocal.

I’m finding it amazing how much silence there is to be found and how little thought is required. That being said, the mind seems to be addicted to it and doesn’t want to give it up.

Thought isn't going to stop and remember all the practical and problem solving thought can be helpful.

But if there has been a drop in thought, much more silence, and your belief in control and self has gone has there been a shift?

Is your experience different in any other ways?

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:09 pm

Hi Michael,
Thought isn't going to stop and remember all the practical and problem solving thought can be helpful.
I get that, the thoughts I am referring to are the useless and repetitive thoughts which serves no purpose.
But if there has been a drop in thought, much more silence, and your belief in control and self has gone has there been a shift?
A drop in thoughts, yes. Much more silence, yes. Believe in control drastically weakened, but not entirely gone. I am still experiencing the self from movement to moment, and there is still a center for now, but it has been weakened.

There has been a shift in the sense that when I get caught up in the drama, I find myself stopping and thinking ‘this is not real’ and then returning to the silence, but I still do get caught up in the drama.
Is your experience different in any other ways?
Mild pain or discomfort isn’t what it use to be, just another experience.
I find myself responding to people more intuitively.
I’ve become more aware of this body, random muscle twitches, how violently it’s heart beats in it’s chest.
Less thoughts about whether or not I did the right thing or not.
Less impatient.

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:59 pm

Hi Nessie,
Mild pain or discomfort isn’t what it use to be, just another experience.
I find myself responding to people more intuitively.
I’ve become more aware of this body, random muscle twitches, how violently it’s heart beats in it’s chest.
Less thoughts about whether or not I did the right thing or not.
Less impatient.

Sounds good!
I am still experiencing the self from movement to moment, and there is still a center for now, but it has been weakened.

How do you experience the self from moment to moment?


Please tell me where the centre is down to one mm. The exact location.


The self cannot be weakened because it isn't there.

What is present is a belief, an illusion - which is either still there or seen through. Like the belief in batman, or father christmas, or that politicians tell the truth.


Warm regards,

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:13 pm

Hi Michael,
How do you experience the self from moment to moment?
As something separate and uniquely different from all other things.

When I stop, focus, and look for borders, I can see that borders cannot be found and that everything just flows together. When I stop stopping, focusing, and looking for borders, the habit of seeing and feeling borders returns as the default state.
What is present is a belief, an illusion - which is either still there or seen through. Like the belief in batman, or father christmas, or that politicians tell the truth.
Then I’d have to say the illusion is still present.

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:58 am

Hi Nessie,
How do you experience the self from moment to moment?

As something separate and uniquely different from all other things.

I don't understand.

What EXACTLY do you have that is uniquely different from all other things?

Where EXACTLY to the mm is it located?

Warm regards,

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:36 pm

Hi Michael,
What EXACTLY do you have that is uniquely different from all other things?
It’s not what I have in my possession, but what I am experiencing in this present moment.

Sitting in this room, with no one else present in it, doors are closed, curtains are drawn, no other experiencer knows what is known in this room, but the experiencer that I am. If I get up and move to another room, draw the curtains and close the door, the same would be true.

Have I moved or has the world moved? I don’t know, but there was a movement and no one else experienced that movement but me. No one else can recall that experience, but me. If there is nothing unique being experienced here, why is no one else experiencing it?
Where EXACTLY to the mm is it located?
It’s 0 mm from me. To describe where it is, I would need something to reference it from, but I am always the reference point from which all other things are referenced from.

Regards,
Nessie.

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:27 pm

Hi Nessie,

Sorry I missed you yesterday but I had a screen free day. Quite a computer heavy week.....

What EXACTLY do you have that is uniquely different from all other things?
It’s not what I have in my possession, but what I am experiencing in this present moment.

Sitting in this room, with no one else present in it, doors are closed, curtains are drawn, no other experiencer knows what is known in this room, but the experiencer that I am. If I get up and move to another room, draw the curtains and close the door, the same would be true.

Have I moved or has the world moved? I don’t know, but there was a movement and no one else experienced that movement but me. No one else can recall that experience, but me. If there is nothing unique being experienced here, why is no one else experiencing it?

Unique experience is not in question - same for every squirrel or cat etc.

There is knowingness, most folk settle on the word awareness - but does awareness require a self. If you watch the squirrels (I suggest you do) they are aware no doubt that they move from tree to tree (room to room) but.....

Is a self required?

Is there an experiencer?

It is noticeable that things occur, eating, drinking, movement, changing rooms etc. Thought makes commentaries. It is self referencing - Boom! the Nessie character is created and believed in.

Find the experiecer....

Notice a room, a colour, a sound, anything.

But surely it is just all appearing in an empty knowingness?

It doesn't seem to matter how many times I ask you to find or point to a self you cannot. But you still believe it is there.

There are just self referencing thoughts which you believe to be a separate entity.

Where EXACTLY to the mm is your self located?

It’s 0 mm from me. To describe where it is, I would need something to reference it from, but I am always the reference point from which all other things are referenced from.

Where exactly is the reference point? Look in direct experience.....

You will be tempted to say 'behind my eyes' - but that isn't true. There is nothing behind the eyes..... Is there?

Can a reference point (or indeed anything) be found?

Or is there just aware spaciousness where you think a self should be?

Warm regards,

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:43 pm

Hi Michael,
Is a self required?

Is there an experiencer?
No. A self and an experiencer cannot be found in direct experiencer, but still here I am.
But surely it is just all appearing in an empty knowingness?

It doesn't seem to matter how many times I ask you to find or point to a self you cannot. But you still believe it is there.

There are just self referencing thoughts which you believe to be a separate entity.
Agreed, on all accounts, but here I am.
Where exactly is the reference point? Look in direct experience.....

You will be tempted to say 'behind my eyes' - but that isn't true. There is nothing behind the eyes..... Is there?

Can a reference point (or indeed anything) be found?

Or is there just aware spaciousness where you think a self should be?
I am the aware spaciousness, the aware spaciousness is the reference point, but this aware spaciousness does not feel like it is everywhere, it is localized somewhere being only aware of what Nessie is aware of.

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:35 pm

Hi Nessie,

When you say, "but here I am", what is it exactly that is here?

So to be concrete - as you sit at your computer now and write a reply you can feel beingness,see the keyboard, hear clicking, see fingers move and thoughts arise (etc) but is there anything else?

Or is there 'just this'?

I am the aware spaciousness

That may well be your 'true nature' - but are you,(Nessie), it?

Is aware spaciousness 'yours'?

Could it be that the thought story, the character Nessie (albeit the most important thing) is just one of the things that appers in it? - like a tree or cat?

the aware spaciousness is the reference point

Mmm. Are you sure? Look some more.

If you close your eyes and just 'be' does it really feel like a reference point?

Or just a vibrant, alive, knowingness?

Where is Nessie if you just 'be'?


Warm regerds, Michael.




'

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:26 pm

Hi Michael,
When you say, "but here I am", what is it exactly that is here?
Me experiencing myself as being a person, even though I know it isn’t true. Is this enough?
So to be concrete - as you sit at your computer now and write a reply you can feel beingness,see the keyboard, hear clicking, see fingers move and thoughts arise (etc) but is there anything else?

Or is there 'just this'?
There is only this.
That may well be your 'true nature' - but are you,(Nessie), it?

Is aware spaciousness 'yours'?

Could it be that the thought story, the character Nessie (albeit the most important thing) is just one of the things that appers in it? - like a tree or cat?
It is all there is and I know that I am, so I must be it. Nessie seems to come and go, sometimes I am fully identified with it, sometimes I am not, but I always am.
If you close your eyes and just 'be' does it really feel like a reference point?

Or just a vibrant, alive, knowingness?

Where is Nessie if you just 'be'?
No, it doesn’t feel like anything, it just is, but when the question arises ‘What is this?’ the answer comes, ‘this is an experience being experienced by you / me’. If there is no enquiry, it just happens, when there is enquiry, then the enquirer is.

Regard,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:44 am

Hi Nessie,

This is all so crucuial you really need to look carefully now....
When you say, "but here I am", what is it exactly that is here?

Me experiencing myself as being a person, even though I know it isn’t true.

So you know, (by having seen to some degree the narrative power of thought), that 'a person' isn't a solid real entity but rather a fictional interpretation of what is happening?

So to be concrete - as you sit at your computer now and write a reply you can feel beingness,see the keyboard, hear clicking, see fingers move and thoughts arise (etc) but is there anything else?

Or is there 'just this'?

There is only this.

So which is it?


Is there 'just this' - often including Nessie thoughts about a Nessie, or is there a real continuous separate self?

Go outside and look at a tree. Is life just 'treeing' or is there a seperate tree 'self' present 'choosing' e.g. which way to grow it's branches? how much fruit to produce this autumn? etc, etc.

Now looking back. Could it be that life is simply 'Nessieing', or are you really a seperate entity making it all happen? Somehow 'outside' life, ordering, and controlling it?

Remember there will always be background hum of beingness, or aliveness.

Nessie seems to come and go, sometimes I am fully identified with it, sometimes I am not, but I always am.

Very much so! Life flows on with a sense of being or aliveness and sometimes the character is present and being re-enforced (or whatever), but at other times it is absent or forgotten.


Does that not again suggest to you that it is an add on? An ongoing interpretation? Exactly how real is that then? You could say there is a self but it is more like father christmas or catwoman. There is a character there but fictional, a story, nebulous and hollow. (Just like a dream character at night).

Do you realise how significant it is that you see that there are gaps in the on-going Nessie character?


This is not the accepted view of personhood! This is not what the folks think that you will weave around in the supernarket today.....

What you are seeing is deeply significant if you could allow it to sink in.....


Could it be that life is just happenning? That we are very complex entities that to help us make sense of our experience we cast ourselves as the central character in an on-going drama, claiming experience as 'our experience' and with our almost continuous self referencing thought maintain that fictional self sense?

If you close your eyes and just 'be' does it really feel like a reference point?

Or just a vibrant, alive, knowingness?

Where is Nessie if you just 'be'?

No, it doesn’t feel like anything, it just is, but when the question arises ‘What is this?’ the answer comes, ‘this is an experience being experienced by you / me’. If there is no enquiry, it just happens, when there is enquiry, then the enquirer is.
So the 'enquirer' isn't a separate being called Nessie.......simply just another thought', just another wisp of cloud, nothingness taking form and melting back to nothingness....

This is a wonderful conversation. Keep looking and keep noticing those Nessie free gaps. Often it is as simple as simply noticing that the hand has brought the cup to your mouth again for another sip of tea, and you realise you didn't ask it to....

Or you get up to go to the loo before 'you' 'made the decision' to do so......Or you scratch your nose and realise there was no command - it just happpened.

Have fun playing cat and mouse.....or being a detective.....or forensic scientist.

Since it is all fiction anyway choose whichever role would be most fun!

There is a lot in these recent exchanges. Please feel free to do whatever is best. I f you want to pick one of the above and work with it do that. If it helps to write several times a day do that and I will do my best to respond so there aren't long gaps.

All best wishes,

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:46 pm

Hi Michael,
...that 'a person' isn't a solid real entity but rather a fictional interpretation of what is happening?
Yes, I’m impersonating being a person. I think I’m starting to see it. Nothing is permanent. There is only process, or rather, processing occurring. I look at an experience, stick a sticker on it, and say ‘you are that thing’, but that thing doesn’t exist as anything but the process occurring that it describes.
..could it be that life is simply 'Nessieing', or are you really a seperate entity making it all happen? Somehow 'outside' life, ordering, and controlling it?
Life is Nessieing. Nessieing is personing in a very specific way, different from say Michaeling.
Remember there will always be background hum of beingness, or aliveness.
When you say ‘background hum of beingness, or aliveness’, what do you mean by this? Is this ‘I know that I am’? Awareness itself?
Could it be that life is just happenning? That we are very complex entities that to help us make sense of our experience we cast ourselves as the central character in an on-going drama, claiming experience as 'our experience' and with our almost continuous self referencing thought maintain that fictional self sense?
Part of personing is believing in a ‘self’. When personing is being done very well, very strong referential thinking occurs which are followed by strong believing in being a separate process which the personing then refers to as ‘self’.

Regard,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:50 pm

Hi Nessie,
I look at an experience, stick a sticker on it, and say ‘you are that thing’, but that thing doesn’t exist as anything but the process occurring that it describes.

And could it be the same for yourself. Decisions and actions are named and claimed and the self illusion created but to use your words 'that thing (self) doesn't exist as anything but the process occurring that it describes'?


Just empty thought?
..could it be that life is simply 'Nessieing', or are you really a seperate entity making it all happen? Somehow 'outside' life, ordering, and controlling it?

Life is Nessieing. Nessieing is personing in a very specific way, different from say Michaeling.

Exactly. Everything is a unique expression of life.


So is the self you think is running the show anything other than thought?


Is it real?

When you say ‘background hum of beingness, or aliveness’, what do you mean by this? Is this ‘I know that I am’? Awareness itself?

Could it be that you are not the voice of the mind but rather that which hears it?


Don't think about the answer. Dwell in direct experience and find out.


Warm regards,

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:26 pm

Hi Michael,
Just empty thought?
Yes, however to the person it is everything, it’s what the person is made of. No thought, no person.
So is the self you think is running the show anything other than thought?

Is it real?
Just thought, but it wouldn’t call it completely unreal. Thoughts do occur, there is an awareness of them. Those thoughts create a person, there is an awareness of that created person too. It’s a real fiction. Almost like a movie, things occur, and you can allow yourself to be lost in the movie, it’s entertaining, but if you look closely and allow yourself to become aware of your surroundings, the illusion is broken.
Could it be that you are not the voice of the mind but rather that which hears it?
Nessie is definitely the voice of the mind, and when I think of myself as an I, that is what I feel I am, Nessie. I could very well be that which hears the voice of the mind of Nessie, but that doesn’t feel like an I at all. It simply is, therefore I cannot be it and it cannot be me. If I am that, then I am not an I at all.

Regard,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:28 pm

Hi Nessie,


I am beginning to think we are going round in circles. Are you spending time in nature watching the birds and animals? Are you reading the Gateless Gatecrasher threads?

My concern is that you are simply re-enforcing your belief in a separate self.........

There is not a separate self. It is an illusion. You believe there is one. I send you to search for it. It cannot be found except as thought.....

Are you thought or not?
I could very well be that which hears the voice of the mind of Nessie, but that doesn’t feel like an I at all. It simply is, therefore I cannot be it and it cannot be me. If I am that, then I am not an I at all.

There is no 'mind of Nessie'. Please look. Can you find anything that warrents the label 'mind'? It is just another concept that you believe to be real.....


Why choose to identify with a bunch of thoughts about a shadow puppet called Nessie when you could identify with the vastness and wonder that these repetitive old thoughts keep occuring in?

Thoughts that you have already found out aren't yours, you can't stop, you can't control etc, etc.....

Look and see if you are just thought. They are the story of the action figure. But are you really just thought?

Remember you have seen that you aren't making them happen (anymore than you are making the wind in the trees happen, or the sensations in your fingers or back).

Why aren't you just sensation?

Why thought and not sensation?

When thought stops does a being cease to exist?

Do you exist in the gaps between thought?

Please try and notice that these thoughts (that you believe are you) CLAIM actions and decisions. The actions occur and THEN are woven into the Nessie dream....

Warm regards,

Michael.


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