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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Thu May 28, 2020 11:13 pm

Hi
messed up some formatting so reposting

What is it that is giving the information that the sensation is the 'feeling of I"?

The feeling of Iness came simply with thinking about "I" about "me", there seemed to be a sensation, and so the thought was associated to that. It seems to be a simple process of naming. Am not sure there is a particularly "I" aspect in the sensation. It seems to be simply associations I have with what "I" is. Will look deeper into this.

Does the feeling/sensation itself suggests in any way that this is "the feeling of I"? Does the feeling/sensation knows its name (itself)?

In no way whatsover does the sensation suggest itself to be the feeling of I. It is just a feeling, that was named feeling of "I".

Does the feeling itself knows that it is named a “feeling of I”, or a “feeling of joy” or a "feeling of sadness" etc…?

The feeling does not know. The feeling is just a feeling.


Can you notice the labeling process - thought is coming almost immediately after the experience?


Yes. Though I struggled with this when it came to sensations that I defined as pleasant or unpleasant. It did not seem that the labeling made them so, they seemed to be inherently pleasant or unpleasant. To some extent can pleasantness be a quality of the sensation.

I see on the other hand that the feeling of joy, is just a feeling that is then labeled as feeling of joy. Though the fact that is pleasant or not is felt in the moment.

Is it possible that “feeling of I” is also just a thought? Like every other thought?

Yes, it is just a thought, a label. The feeling of I does not exist outside of thought.

And is there an I to feel?

No there isn't.

Best
and thank you

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Fri May 29, 2020 9:26 am

Hi Luchana,
I was not satisfied with my answers last night, so I answered the questions one more time.
Does the feeling/sensation itself suggests in any way that this is "the feeling of I"?
The feeling or sensation does not suggest itself as the "feeling of I" in any way. It is just a sensation. The information that leads to the belief that it is the "feeling of I", comes from naming the sensation as the feeling of I.

What is it that is giving the information that the sensation is the 'feeling of I"?
There is no "I" to feel, and the "I" which is described as being felt, is a concept that exists only as an idea in the mind. Unlike feeling a table which can not only be thought of, but also experienced in reality, when talking about feeling "I", one can only point to the sensations associated with that thought or idea, one can only directly experience the idea of I, as we have shown that in looking there is no "I" to be found.

Does the feeling/sensation knows its name (itself)? Does the feeling itself knows that it is named a “feeling of I”, or a “feeling of joy” or a "feeling of sadness" etc…?
The sensations do not know themselves. And they are always labeled.

Can you notice the labeling process - thought is coming almost immediately after the experience?
Yes it is seen

Is it possible that “feeling of I” is also just a thought? Like every other thought?
Now when it comes to the "feeling of I" being just a thought, I think you are refering to the fact that the "feeling of I" is such only because of it's label. There is a sensation, thought the only thing that connects it to the "feeling of I" is labeling it as such.

And is there an I to feel?
No there isn't


Best,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Fri May 29, 2020 3:57 pm

Hi John,

thank you for your replies. You've digged deeply and that's very good.

The feeling or sensation does not suggest itself as the "feeling of I" in any way. It is just a sensation. The information that leads to the belief that it is the "feeling of I", comes from naming the sensation as the feeling of I.
yes, you did a nice looking.

Can you describe what happens with this sensation when you don't look, but rather living your everyday life?

Whether if it still FEELS that "I am thinking", "I am choosing", "I am deciding" or "I am feeling"?

There is no "I" to feel, and the "I" which is described as being felt, is a concept that exists only as an idea in the mind.

Let's investigate into this.

How mind as such is experienced exactly?

As an image? As a sound? Or as an imagination?

Now when it comes to the "feeling of I" being just a thought, I think you are refering to the fact that the "feeling of I" is such only because of it's label. There is a sensation, thought the only thing that connects it to the "feeling of I" is labeling it as such.
Yes, there is a feeling and this feeling is labeled as a "feeling of I".

Can you clearly see this?


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sun May 31, 2020 2:55 pm

Yello :)
Can you describe what happens with this sensation when you don't look, but rather living your everyday life?

Whether if it still FEELS that "I am thinking", "I am choosing", "I am deciding" or "I am feeling"?
Yes and no. It's seen that all just appears and nothing is done by I. All just happens and arises. And it is seen that all is is this endless flow of arising, and it is allowed. There are thoughts about an "I" that does things, but it's seen that that is not the case.

This "feeling of an actor" seems to be false there is no feeling, there was just a strong belief that there was an actor. There also seems to be less of a need to talk about an I. As in stuff can be done without me entertaining the thought of "I".

But it's still not clear. I will look closer now and try to explain why.
How mind as such is experienced exactly?

As an image? As a sound? Or as an imagination?
The mind is not experienced in any way, just a word we use to describe an imaginary construct.
Yes, there is a feeling and this feeling is labeled as a "feeling of I".

Can you clearly see this?
yep.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sun May 31, 2020 10:30 pm

I looked closer, and the fact that there is no I is clear.
I think I was struggling with the idea of a feeling of I as it is a thought rather than a feeling. It does not feel like "I am thinking", there is just thinking happening.

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:50 am

Hi John,
Yes and no. It's seen that all just appears and nothing is done by I. All just happens and arises. And it is seen that all is is this endless flow of arising, and it is allowed. There are thoughts about an "I" that does things, but it's seen that that is not the case.
Very good looking. Can you say that the thought is real , but the content of the thought (there is an I, which does things) is not?
The mind is not experienced in any way, just a word we use to describe an imaginary construct.
Exactly. This is just a word. It could be useful in communication, but does not exist in reality,


This "feeling of an actor" seems to be false there is no feeling, there was just a strong belief that there was an actor.


Let's make one interesting exercise.

You will need 5-10 minutes, but you can also inquire whole day as long as you have some free time.

Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:


What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

What is it that is controlling the hand?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

How is the decision made?


Take your time and let me know what you find.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:30 pm

Hello Luchana :)
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
There is nothing choosing which hand to move. The choice just happens. Sometimes it is vocalized mentally before the action with a thought, though the thought just happens as well, it is not brought about by any thinker.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
There is no separate individual that does the choosing. There is nothing outside to make a decision. It is impossible for there to be anything separate outside of the flow of things.
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Nothing controls the hand. Or maybe everything, in that every single factor in the universe came together for the hand to move at that particular point. Though there is no separate actor doing the controlling.
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
There is just the arising of things. They just show up appear.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
No controller anywhere. Nowhere.
How is the decision made?
The decision just happens. It just arises.

All the best to you!

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:46 pm

Hi John,

you did a good looking.
Let's dig a bit more and apply this inquiry in a daily life.

Please read these examples. They are just examples and you can find many more during your whole day.

When walking
Who or what makes a decision to move one leg or another?
Where the desicion comes from exactly?


While reading a menu for a lunch/dinner (or when cooking at home)
Where the desicion comes from exactly?
Is it possible to locate a chooser?
Who or what decides which meal to choose?


While resting in the evening -
Who or what decides whether watch a movie, reading a book or simply relax?

While dressing in the morning
Does someone show up and makes a choice which shirt to pick?
Can something which does the choosing be found?


In the midst of everyday life investigate these simple activities.
Look as many times as you can and inquire:


Is there a place where these decisions/choices come from?

Who or what gives them?

Look for the point where the decision was made.

Is it possible to find such a point?

Can a source be found?


Dig deep.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:53 pm

Hi Luchana!
Sorry for the delay, was traveling for the past two days, and forgot to let you know.
I wiil work on putting together a response tomorrow.

In the meantime sending you a big hug
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:39 am

Thanks for writting John.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:36 am

Hello :)

When walking

No one makes the decision to move one leg or another. It just happens. And the decision does not come from somewhere, it just shows up.

While reading a menu

The decision just happens it does not come from anywhere, and it is impossible to locate a chooser, as there is nothing that decides what meal to choose.

While resting in the evening

Nothing decides what to do, there just comes up a decision to do something. Often there is not even an explicit decision.

While dressing in the morning

There is still is no one making the decision. No one shows up to choose a particular shirt. There is just a choosing. Nothing to be found that chooses.
Is there a place where these decisions/choices come from? Who or what gives them?
Decisions and choices clearly do not come from anywhere or anyone. They just show up.
Is it possible to find such a point?
I cannot find a point where the decision was made or created, I only know the decision once it happens. And is the basis on which I understand that there is no separate I deciding. Decisions just happen, they just occur. They are brought about by the entire context in which they happen. Just like every other action. And they are not known before they happen, before they are decided.
This is all clear.
Though I am thinking what would it mean for a separate I to decide something. What would that entail? How could a decision be known before it occurs? How can anything be known before it happens? What would it mean for an I to actually decide something?
Can a source be found?
No source can be found

Thank you,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:07 am

Hi John.

thank you for your answers.

Some of them are not comming from looking, but from logic and thinking.

Like the ones here:
Decisions just happen, they just occur. They are brought about by the entire context in which they happen. Just like every other action. And they are not known before they happen, before they are decided.
This is intellectual understanding, a logical conclusion. It's ok, it's normal, we all do this in the begining. Because it's just a habit, we're conditioned. Gradually with looking and persistent it becomes more and more easy to LOOK for the answer, rather than just think about the answer.

Though I am thinking what would it mean for a separate I to decide something. What would that entail? How could a decision be known before it occurs? How can anything be known before it happens? What would it mean for an I to actually decide something?
Could you give some more details here, please?
What do you actually mean by these questions?
Also what is the link between the given answers (you say that you see that that decision is just happening) and these questions?


Much love
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:35 am

Hi Luchana,

As always thank you for talking through this with me.

Ok. Am not sure am looking. Though this is what is seen.

Decisions just show up. The same way thoughts just show up and we do not have control over them so do the decisions arise. They're not there, and suddenly they are there. "I" do not do anything in order to bring them about.

They come about because of everything, part of that can be the thoughts that show up, or events or weather, whatever it is. They are just a continuation of all. That is what I mean in talking about "being brought about by the entire context in which they happen".

Maybe I am overwriting. I think what is seen can be simply expressed as:

Decisions just happen. There is no I that brings them about.

What I was asking through these questions. Was "what would it mean for an I to decide something?". In our discussion, we agree that there isn't an I deciding anything, that decisions just happen. Though I am not clear as to what it would mean for an I to decide something. What is it that isn't happening?

Best,
John

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:58 am

Hi John,
As always thank you for talking through this with me.
You are most welcome :-)

Was "what would it mean for an I to decide something?". In our discussion, we agree that there isn't an I deciding anything, that decisions just happen.
Your comments are not quite clear.

Do you just agree with me or you actually (literally) see experientially that there is no I deciding?

This is not a discussion and neither agreement. Both discussion and agreement can happen only intellectually. What we are doing here is to look directly at experience if there is a decider, a chooser, a separate I.

You don't have to agree. You just have to LOOK and see it for yourself.

Like in the exercise with the t-shirt in the beginning of our thread. It is THAT simple.
You don’t have to agree that the t-shirt is blue. You just have to LOOK and see the colour.

What I was asking through these questions. Was "what would it mean for an I to decide something?". In our discussion, we agree that there isn't an I deciding anything, that decisions just happen. Though I am not clear as to what it would mean for an I to decide something. What is it that isn't happening?
I really tried hard to understand , but I failed so tell me why are you asking these questions?

Are you expecting replies or you're trying to show where you are stuck?


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:06 pm

Hey sorry for the confusion.

Not trying to indicate where I am stuck. And not just agreeing, it's seen that there is no decider.

I was asking an intellectual question about what it would mean for there to be a decider in reality. To understand what it is that we are saying is not there.

I don't need an answer to the question anymore and am satisfied to move on.

And again to be clear, I see that deciding just happens. Like everything else. No I that makes the decisions. There is just deciding. Just as there is just thinking, and just speaking and so forth.

Best,
John


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