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GioB
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LFG

Postby GioB » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:37 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
To see for ourselves that our idea of self is an illusion. To be free from living completely trapped into these imaginary characters we have constructed for ourselves, to see that there is more to us.

What are you looking for at LU?
I rationally understand the illusion of the self, though I do not feel I have realized it fully. I see that in all that arises there is never an actor. Though it seems to me that there is more to comprehend.

The second thing I wish to understand better is what are the ramifications of seeing through the idea of a separate self. How do we live when we do not live focused on maintaining our ego.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Help in approaching this, through questions which I do not know I need to ask myself, and by keeping me honest and clear, while pointing out gaps in my understanding. I expect a lot from myself in terms of engaging with the questions and communicating them honestly.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Over the past month, I have been engaging with these ideas, my main process of seeking has been through reading: Jed McKenna, Michael Singer, and Ilona Ciunate's books.
And I have always had a personal meditation practice.

THANK YOU for this

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:04 pm

Hi GioB,

(can I call you like this or you prefer another name?)

My name is Luchana and I can join you in this investigation if you wish. ( although I can only point, you have to see it for yourself). I’m not going to be your teacher, we simply will have a conversation. There are no wrong or right answers, so do not worry. It’s all ok.


Before we start some practical things:

1. How to use quotes funcion - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

2. Post once a day - it really helps to keep focus.

3. For the time of this investigation I will aks you to leave aside all the books and videos regarding the subject. If you have any daily practice - like meditation it’s ok to continue with it.

4. I will ask questions and will give you exercises. All you have to do is to look in your direct experience and answer from there. We look into the Direct Experience without assumptions and beliefs about what is. It is that simple.
What is Direct/Actual Experience?
Everything we can experience with the 5 senses+thought (noticing the thought, but not what content of the thought is )
So, when we say Direct Experience we mean - what is it that we see now, what is it that we hear now, what is it that we taste now, what is it that we can smell now, what is it that we can touch now + thought on the surface, but not what thought is about.

For example - If I ask you what is the colour of your socks today you can "think" and remember what socks did you pick this morning, or you just look and see what colour are they really.


Can we agree on these?



Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:31 pm

Hello Luchana!!!

Call me Giovanni, and I agree to all 1-4.

I am grateful for the time you are committing to this.

Thank you.

Let me know how we start.

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:11 am

Hi Giovanni,
I am grateful for the time you are committing to this.

You're welcome :-)

I agree to all 1-4.

Great.

Before we start the investigation I would like to ask you few questions.

Please reply each of them individually. Reply with honesty from your heart.

I will always put the quesions in italic, so it will be easy for you.


Tell me. what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?


What are you hoping for?


What do you want to happen?


What is incomplete right now?




Just for your info - English is not my native language and if something seems wrong or does not make sense - just tell me :-)


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:20 am

Morning!
Tell me. what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?

What are you hoping for?

What do you want to happen?

What is incomplete right now?
I hope through this process to see through the illusion of self. Not to destroy the self. Though to see fully that it is not real. As to how my life would change if I did find that, am not entirely sure.

I believe there would be more peace within it, as a lot of worries and feelings would have nothing to stick to. And could just as easily as they arise, be let go of.

Nonetheless, this is something I am curious to speak about now or later. What changes when we make this step, does everything just return to normal? Or is action different due to this new understanding?

I hope that through this process, I am able to relinquish the illusion of control. To see the interconnectedness of things and flow with what is happening, as opposed to continuously pouring energy in maintaining the ego.

That last thing is what is incomplete at the moment. That the present way I have been living is entirely focused on building up, maintaining and fulfilling the ego. And that actions within this come from a place of lack, and fear.

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:48 am

Hi Giovanni,

thank you for your honest answers.

Just one thing regarding quotation - please, don't bulk-reply, but reply to every quesion one-by-one. From now on it’s important that you reply to every question individualy. The reason I ask you this is because each quesion is a pointer for you where to look, so please answer every question one-by-one.

Let's look together your expectations now.

I hope through this process to see through the illusion of self. Not to destroy the self
But what if there is no self at all? What If there is nothing to destroy in the first place. How can something which was never existed to be destroyed?

I believe there would be more peace within it, as a lot of worries and feelings would have nothing to stick to. And could just as easily as they arise, be let go of
This may or may not happen. No one can say in advance. It's quite common that very easy one can miss something obvious because expecting something to happen, to change, to disappear, not to stick, to be more peaceful etc. Even what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. From my experience I can share with you that it's never, ever the way we expected to be.

There is ALREADY no-self, there is ALREADY worries and feeling could stick too, and yet worries and feelings appear. So why would this change if the self illusion is seen for what it is?

Stick already doesn't happen, it's just SEEMS that way. But just because the self is seen for to be an illusion, it doesn't mean that it will stop appearing. The self-illusion will go on, just as the seeming stickiness of emotions.

Seeing through the self is just the first step, just the beginning, and lots of further looking is needed after, in order for conditionings to gradually fall away. And this 'falling away' can last at the end of the organism.

Also, many emotions are result of conditioned patters stemming from childhood, from traumas, and all sort of personality issues. But these things won't change just because the self is seen through. The personality stays almost completely intact. Lots of further looking is needed to resolve these patters.

Peace is a state, just as any emotions, and states are never permanent. But seeing through the self is not a state, it's not a different state than normally is happening. Many people expect that to get into a state of having predominantly positive emotions, and not having any unpleasant ones. But seeing through the self is not about not having half of the emotions, and feeling good all the time or most of the time. Not at all. It's about seeing that these emotions doesn't stick to anything... and yet, these emotions arise and will arise.

Nonetheless, this is something I am curious to speak about now or later. What changes when we make this step, does everything just return to normal? Or is action different due to this new understanding?”
We don’t give asnwers here, we ask questions :-) This conversation may help you see for yourself. This conversation is not about learning, but rather about see it experientialy. You will be able to find the answers of these questions.

I hope that through this process, I am able to relinquish the illusion of control. To see the interconnectedness of things and flow with what is happening, as opposed to continuously pouring energy in maintaining the ego.

Ok, with this investigation you can see experientially that there is no control, but you can’t be able to relinquish something which you have never had in the first place.

That last thing is what is incomplete at the moment. That the present way I have been living is entirely focused on building up, maintaining and fulfilling the ego. And that actions within this come from a place of lack, and fear.

The ego is nothing else than the personality. And the personality (ego) won't go away just because the self is seen through. And by the way, do you think that you have two selves? One is the ego self, and another one, a pure one, which could be left after seeing through the first one?

There are no different selves... all the seeming selves (ego, personality, self, Self, my true nature, spiritual self, pure self, etc) are the SAME and ONLY self masquerading as different things.

Have you expected that the self illusion would stop appearing after it's seen to be just an illusion? If yes, why would it? It won't. The appearance of the ego will go on... since ego = self = personality.

Please read these comments thoroughly several times, ponder on the questions to have a different perspective on the topic, and check what comes up -


Is there any resistance to any of it?



Take your time

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:29 pm

But what if there is no self at all? What If there is nothing to destroy in the first place. How can something which was never existed to be destroyed?
I think we misunderstood each other here. I agree with you. There is no self to destroy, and that is not what I want to do. I wish to see through it.
Stick already doesn't happen, it's just SEEMS that way.
This makes sense. The self is and always has been an illusion, there has never been anything to stick to.
Even what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome. Expectations result in comparison
I will try to let go of expectations of what the outcome will be, and focus on seeing what is before me.
Seeing through the self is just the first step, just the beginning, and lots of further looking is needed after, in order for conditionings to gradually fall away.
I accept this. And am happy to be working towards the first step.
you can’t be able to relinquish something which you have never had in the first place.
Yes I see that this is true.
There are no different selves... all the seeming selves (ego, personality, self, Self, my true nature, spiritual self, pure self, etc) are the SAME and ONLY self masquerading as different things.
Completely agree with all of this.
There is only one self. And it remains even if we see it as an illusion.
Is there any resistance to any of it?
The main resistance is to let go of my expectations of what this will be like, and what the outcome will be. Though I will do so. And focus on this process with you.

Thank you Luchana

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:33 pm

Hi Giovanni,
There is only one self. And it remains even if we see it as an illusion.
It's seems that there is a self. But is there a self in reality? This is what we are going to investigate.

The main resistance is to let go of my expectations of what this will be like, and what the outcome will be. Though I will do so. And focus on this process with you.
Yes, I know - it's hard (but not impossible) to let go of the expectations and thank you for your willingness to do so.


Now let's make one very interesting exercise.

You will need some time (at least 20 min) alone.

Sit quietly and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all. Observe thoughts, inquire and answer the following questions:


Where are they coming from and going to?

Can you predict your next thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Can you stop a thought in the middle?

Can you select any specail thought, a pleasant one?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thought?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?


Let me know what you find.

Don't forget to look in your immediate direct experience, raw experience as it is without using any imagination and intellectualization. It could be challenging in the beginning, but try your best.
Look with curiosity and have fun :-)

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:04 pm

Where are they coming from and going to?
Experientially they come from nowhere. I look and they just show up. There is no source that I can point to. Just thoughts.

My understanding is that they come from everywhere. As an infinity of factors leads to a thought arising. The questions I read of this screen, the conversation I had yesterday, the weather outside as I type, the birds chirping, and each of these factors is influenced by an infinity of factors and so forth and so forth so that each thought comes from everywhere.
Can you predict your next thought?

I thought about this for a while. I thought that I could. I could say "yes, my next thought will be about birds", and what would follow would be a thought about birds. Though my next thought which the question refers to was "Yes my next thought will be about birds" and I could not have predicted that. I cannot predict my next thought, as I do not know it before it arises. This seems to suggest that I can only perceive not cause.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
It is not possible to prevent a thought from appearing, as we do not know what it will be before it appears.
Can you stop a thought in the middle?
Depends on what we consider a unit thought. I can let go of certain thoughts and prevent them from continuing to build upon themselves by shifting my focus. Though there are smaller thoughts that I cannot stop halfway through.
Can you select any specail thought, a pleasant one?
Yes, it is possible. I can focus on a particular thought and entertain it.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thought?
I believe the answer to this is similar to whether I can prevent a thought from appearing and can stop a thought in the middle. A negative thought may arise, instead of continuing to focus on it I can let go of it and/elsewhere
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
It seems to me that thoughts just arise. That I have no control over them. That the illusion of control comes itself from a thought. I can think that I am going to think about the beach. And from that thoughts arise about the beach. I may feel that I decided to think about the beach but I had no control over the initial thought arising.

Well, that is all for now. I will continue thinking about this. This exercise was great.
Going to reflect more about what this means for my intentions, as it seems there is no source I can point to for those as well. They just arise.

All the best,
Giovanni

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:05 am

Hi Giovanni,

Most of your replies, (if not all) are comming from thinking, reasoning and intellectualization.But that is common and normal in the beginning of investigation. We all do what we have been taught. You can't see this (but only for now) so I'll do my best to help you start looking, and not thinking.

“Experientially they come from nowhere. I look and they just show up. There is no source that I can point to. Just thoughts.”
Actually this is the only reply which comes from looking. When you look in the experience for what is really happening (not what thought is saying about it) - you see what is there. It is that simple.

I could say "yes, my next thought will be about birds
Can you tell me while looking in experience what is this?
Direct experience/Actual experience - we describe what we see using our senses + thought on the surface, but not what thought is about (content of the thought)

Is this an image? A sound? A thought?
Or a content of a thought?


Depends on what we consider a unit thought. I can let go of certain thoughts and prevent them from continuing to build upon themselves by shifting my focus. Though there are smaller thoughts that I cannot stop halfway through.
This also comes from thinking and not from looking.

Tell me how "unit thought" is experienced exactly?

As an image? As a sensation? Or as a content of another thought?

Is it known from experience which thought is unit? Or it is rather imagination?

Which thought exactly is small? Which on is big? Or bigger?



It seems to me that thoughts just arise.
Look again.

It seems or they just arise?

Let’s make something very quick now.

Look at your t-shirt (or shirt) and tell me what kind of colour is?

It seems like this? Or it is that colour exactly?

Use the same simplicity while replying the questions which I asked above. Just look what is happening in experience.
I will continue thinking about this. This exercise was great.
"Thinking about this" won't help here. You have to literally LOOK.

When I've asked you about the colour of your t-shirt you don't think about it? Right? Or do you?
Don't engage with the content of thoughts. Try your best to COMPLETELY IGNORE what thoughts bring.
Don't just think about the answers. Don't imagine. Don't use logic. Don't rely on your previous insights.

Effortlessly, the way you look your t-shirt.


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:53 pm

Hi Luchana,
Thank you for pointing out that I was not looking.
I have answered the questions you posed in your response below. I will reattempt the exercise and look as opposed to think in the morning and let you know what I found.
I could say "yes, my next thought will be about birds

Is this an image? A sound? A thought?
Or a content of a thought?
It is the content of a thought.

Tell me how "unit thought" is experienced exactly?
I have no idea how it is experienced. When I look at experience I cannot find it. I see clearly that when writing you I was thinking, I thought that the unit thought existed in experience. Though now that I am looking I cannot find it.

The unit of thought I spoke of was the content of a thought.
Is it known from experience which thought is unit? Or it is rather imagination?

Which thought exactly is small? Which on is big? Or bigger?
No it is not know by experience, the attempt to classify thoughts is all imagination.

Thoughts are not small or big. I had the impression that thoughts were sentences. Each separate and distinct. They are not, there are no divisions amongst them, any such divisions are imaginary.
It seems or they just arise?

Look at your t-shirt color ...
It seems like this? Or it is that colour exactly?
They just arise.
My shirt is blue.
I am not exactly sure what you are getting at here though. When I said "It seems to me that thoughts just arise" was the problem that I was not looking at experience, or is it that I did not state this with sufficient conviction?

All the best,
Giovanni

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:39 am

Hi Giovanni,
I will reattempt the exercise and look as opposed to think in the morning and let you know what I found.
Great, I'm looking forward.
I have no idea how it is experienced. When I look at experience I cannot find it. I see clearly that when writing you I was thinking, I thought that the unit thought existed in experience. Though now that I am looking I cannot find it.
No it is not know by experience, the attempt to classify thoughts is all imagination.
You did a good looking :-)
I had the impression that thoughts were sentences. Each separate and distinct. They are not, there are no divisions amongst them, any such divisions are imaginary.
Could you give some example? I cannot cleary understand what you mean...
I am not exactly sure what you are getting at here though. When I said "It seems to me that thoughts just arise" was the problem that I was not looking at experience, or is it that I did not state this with sufficient conviction?
There is no problem at all when you look for the facts of reality.
When you look at your shirt you don't say "It seems it's blue". You know that this is the colour.
When you look at the thoughts you say "it seems they just arise". That's why I gave the example with the shirt and asked you to look again and write if "it's seems like this" or they just arise.

They just arise.
My shirt is blue.
And actually you did a nice looking :-)

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
Posts: 55
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Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:15 pm

Hello :)))
Could you give an example? I cannot clearly understand what you mean...
I thought thoughts were complete sentences. As in "I go to the supermarket." is a complete thought, while "I was going to the supermarket when..." is a thought that was stopped in the middle. I see now that thoughts do not have a start or beginning.

Below is the exercise, I skipped the first question as you mentioned I answered that one adequately.

can you predict your next thought?
No. Not without thinking it. If I try to I end up thinking the thought.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
It is not. As I do not know the thought before it appears.

Can you stop a thought in the middle?
I cannot stop a thought in the middle, as I cannot find an end the thought needs to reach. Therefore I cannot point to a thought and say this one was stopped before it ended.

Can you select any special thought, a pleasant one?
On one hand yes. I can revist a memory, and enjoy it.
Though I do not think this is what you mean.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thought?
I cannot choose not to have painful thoughts. As I do not know what thought will arise before it arises.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No? I feel like I choose.
Though the thought just arises. There is no I involved in the process. And there is no selection of thoughts from which to choose. There is only the thought that I end up thinking.

As always thank you

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Luchana
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Re: LFG

Postby Luchana » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:44 pm

Hi Giovanni,

apologies for a late reply.

On one hand yes. I can revist a memory, and enjoy it.
Though I do not think this is what you mean.
Let’s find this, which seemingly end up thinking.

What is this?

And where exactly is its location?

If you use your finger and point, where the finger will point exactly?


Inquire with curiosity. Look for what is that, which is thinking the thoughts.
Look everywhere, literally everywhere. Be very, very vigilant and let me know what you find.

Take your time.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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GioB
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:35 am

Re: LFG

Postby GioB » Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:14 pm

I will look!

But can you clarify what you mean when you ask
"what is this?"

Are you asking who is thinking of a memory, or what it means to think of a memory, or what the process of thinking of memory is?

I also am not sure what you mean with.

Look for what is that, which is thinking the thoughts.

Here are you asking, who is doing the thinking?

Anyway, thank you! Will get started on this immediately
All the best


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