So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
IstinSkiat
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:55 pm

So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:57 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The personality that I connect to my name and body is not really something that exist. It is basically just a concept of the mind. You can offer help to break trough the illusion that my personality is actually something real, that is existing in time.

What are you looking for at LU?
Although I intellectually grasp the concept of "No self", I can't really honestly say that I feel that way deep down most of the time. I really feel that there is a "person" in me(or as me), even though in meditation I've seen the "observer" many times. I've even felt that I'm the observer, and all else in the perceivable world, including my personality is actually something like a "theater", like a "movie". But shortly after, my "person mode", the sense that I'm somebody living in time is back on the "royal chair" of life. Especially when I start communicating with other people. I feel that the "breakthrough point" may be close, and really hope that you can help me with the rest of that "pathless path"

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Up to this point in time, for quite a few years I have almost completely tried to see the truth of "no Self" all by my self(no pun intended:). I have read many books and watched a bunch of YouTube videos and satsangs, but I have never communicated directly to a teacher. I hope that in this conversations you will ask the me questions that my mind never let me ask myself.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I'm grown up by science oriented parents with no religious background and believes and I my view of the world was truly materialistic.
All started about 5-6 years ago with reading "The power of now" by Eckhart Tolle. My initial intention for reading it was to help my wife with some emotional struggle she was going trough by that time. Then I read it again, and again, and again...every time seeing something new. I felt like some big worldwide truth was revealing to me. And at the same time felt like I knew all this things all my life, but was never bold enough to admit it. One evening I came across a YouTube video explaining what is "Enlightenment" and the speaker was shockingly honest - he literally said "The "You" that you think you are, the "name", the "persona" DOES NOT EXIST"! It was both shocking and somehow liberating. I remember shortly after the video I was siting at my living-room floor staring at the table, which was scratched at the side of it, and the scratch didn't bother me at all, as it was intended to be there on the first place. Prior to that experience I would see it as a defect and it would irritate me. That peaceful state continued for an hour and then I went to sleep. On the other day all was back to normal, but the spark in me has been lit.
Then I found Mooji, Papaji, Gangaji, Adyashanti...started listening to them almost all of my spare time. Inquiry became my usual practice, I'm looking at my feelings, reactions and so on almost constantly.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

User avatar
Sunyata67
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:08 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Sunyata67 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:47 pm

Greetings my name is Simon and I can guide you through some additional aspects of seeing no self and being awake, if you would like.

Reading what you have written, it seems you may have seen no self, at least to some degree.

f you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered. Watch the video at the top of this forum to see how the Quote function works, please.

When we fully see no self, seeking seems to drop away. You are seeking something "more." So, yes, there may be more to see. It is good to be thorough in your investigation and thank you for showing up to see what else there is.

Much love,

User avatar
IstinSkiat
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:55 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:17 pm

Hello Simon and thank you so much for your fast response! My name is Ivan and I'm really pleased to meet you! The fact that you are doing this voluntarily is fastening!!!
Straight to business:
If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it.
I confirm that I have read it.
How will life change?
I don't really expect life to change in any way solely on the expected realization. In fact I'm aware it is changing constantly, no matter what I expect or don't.
How will you change?
If by "you" you mean my personality, I hope it will become more peaceful overtime. I mean internally, because externally people would generally say I'm very peaceful person, but inside I feel strong "fire" burning in my tummy and my chest and lately its getting almost unbearable at times. I may be wrong, but I feel the closer I get to the Truth, the bigger the fire becomes.
This said, I'm aware that the seeing of the Truth is not directly connected to the condition of the person(or the Ego), and I'm not doing this enquiry just to change the person. I am really attracted to seeing the Truth, and this is my number one wish in life, although I can't see any "gain" in it. It is very strange wish, because I'm aware that every other action I do or wish I have in life is to "gain" something.
What will be different?
I imagine everything will be the same, but different. The things will be the same, but perception of them will be vastly different.
What is missing?
Very hard to answer this! Of Course I can point some material things that are missing, that I have desire to own, but I'm 100% aware that ANY material thing won't give me what I really want. But strangely I can't really put into words what I really want. I know for sure something BIG is missing, but cant see clearly in my mind what is that exactly. But the desire to see it is very strong, since I spent most of my free time in the last 5 years searching for it.

Thank you so much again for helping me! I would usually see the "Much love" signature at the end of the post just as an act of kindness, but in this situation I feel it is more real, and I feel it towards you too, even though I know you so little! So..
Much love,
Ivan :)

User avatar
Sunyata67
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:08 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Sunyata67 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:28 pm

Hi Ian

What part of the world are you from? I am living in the south of England, UK.
I don't really expect life to change in any way solely on the expected realization. In fact I'm aware it is changing constantly, no matter what I expect or don't.
Great, totally agree with you. Expectations are an interesting thing. I had so many when I started my process of self enquiry but they really are not needed or helpful. However, we all start on this path for a reason, and those motivations mostly involve expectations.
If by "you" you mean my personality, I hope it will become more peaceful overtime. I mean internally, because externally people would generally say I'm very peaceful person, but inside I feel strong "fire" burning in my tummy and my chest and lately its getting almost unbearable at times. I may be wrong, but I feel the closer I get to the Truth, the bigger the fire becomes.
This said, I'm aware that the seeing of the Truth is not directly connected to the condition of the person(or the Ego), and I'm not doing this enquiry just to change the person. I am really attracted to seeing the Truth, and this is my number one wish in life, although I can't see any "gain" in it. It is very strange wish, because I'm aware that every other action I do or wish I have in life is to "gain" something.
Yes, I know where you are coming from :-)
I'm aware that the seeing of the Truth is not directly connected to the condition of the person(or the Ego), and I'm not doing this enquiry just to change the person.
I think there it would be interesting to look into this.
Can you have a think about this question please and just write down any thought you have?

Who or what would be seeing the truth? How would the truth be seen, how recognised as truth?
I imagine everything will be the same, but different. The things will be the same, but perception of them will be vastly different
.

Spot on.
Very hard to answer this! Of Course I can point some material things that are missing, that I have desire to own, but I'm 100% aware that ANY material thing won't give me what I really want. But strangely I can't really put into words what I really want. I know for sure something BIG is missing, but cant see clearly in my mind what is that exactly. But the desire to see it is very strong, since I spent most of my free time in the last 5 years searching for it.
This is fine, don,t worry. I think Its actually good not to hold a clear picture or thoughts of what it is you are seeking.

OK, I have another question. What is it that you dont want or that you feel is somehow unsatisfactory or could be better?

Do you have any questions for me ?

I really hope I will be of some help Ian, will try my best.

We can start some practical exercises next post, how LU works is little to do with thoughts and debating and much more to do with actually looking.

Love

Simon

User avatar
IstinSkiat
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:55 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:33 pm

Hi Simon
What part of the world are you from? I am living in the south of England, UK.
I'm from Bulgaria, East Europe. Actually last summer I was in UK for a week visiting my best high-school friend who lives in Liverpool.
Great, totally agree with you. Expectations are an interesting thing. I had so many when I started my process of self enquiry but they really are not needed or helpful. However, we all start on this path for a reason, and those motivations mostly involve expectations.
Yeah, in the beginning I was full of expectations, I think every seeker starts with that. One of my main expectations was that I would see the Truth, or "get enlightened" in a few weeks, maximum a few months. I was expecting some BOOM moment, just like Eckhart Tolle who woken up over one night. It took me years to see that it was false expectation.
Who or what would be seeing the truth? How would the truth be seen, how recognized as truth?
Actually I have already been thinking about this question for quite some time in the past. It is very mind boggling. The first answer that comes to mind is the "person", the Ego. But as I said, I am aware that there is nothing to gain from that seeing, so Ego would not be interested since its only interest is gaining stuff. Then the seer of Truth must be the "observer", the witness of all that is happening. I will explain what I mean by this. Sometimes in mediation I become aware that I can't really know ANYTHING for sure in this world, except that I exist and I can observe whatever is happening around me, no matter if its all an illusion or not. The only thing that CAN'T be and illusion is the sense "I am" or "I exist". So that "I am" would be the only one who can see the Truth, because all else is part of the seen and can be an illusion. But on first look this contradicts with the statement "The "I" does not exist". In one case you see the whole world as an illusion and only the "I" is real, in the other case the world is absolutely real, only the I is the illusion. I wonder though if its all and the same, like if everything was covered in super bright light it would seem like total darkness, because you wouldn't be able to see different colors. I think its called a Strange Loop. Maybe I got a bit too philosophical. I really want to put philosophy aside and just experience what is actually here.
So in short - the way I feel now I can answer the truth would be seen by "me", whatever that "me" is. Can't grasp the concept of "truth seeing itself"
I hope you can get what I'm saying. Obviously English is not my mother tongue, so I'm not sure if I can explain myself well enough.
What is it that you dont want or that you feel is somehow unsatisfactory or could be better?
I really dont want to continue living with this feeling of hopelessness in me. In the moment I feel life is absolutely meaningless - we are born, one of 7 billion, we live a VERY short(putted in perspective) period of time and then we are gone. In a 100-200 years from now nothing of the very important material things that are happening or existing now would have any value. Dont get me wrong - thees are not suicidal thoughts. I just know(feel) that there is more to life and I dont want to stop until I find it.
Do you have any questions for me ?
I have, but this post is getting really long as it is, and that wasn't my initial intention. I dont have direct contact with many "spiritual" people and I guess there are a lot of words on this topic in me that are rushing to get out. :) For now I want to focus on the main thing, and I wont ask you anything that is not directly connected.
We can start some practical exercises next post, how LU works is little to do with thoughts and debating and much more to do with actually looking.
Yeah, 100% agree. Lets cut the BS and start the real deal. I think I am very open minded, so you can hit as hard as you like.

Love,

Ivan

User avatar
Sunyata67
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:08 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Sunyata67 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:48 am

Hi Ivan

Looks like we are on a similar timezone which may prove to be helpful :-) Never been to Bulgaria or any of its neighbouring countries but would love to.

It seems to me you have made a lot of progress in your self enquiry :-)

Re
Actually I have already been thinking about this question for quite some time in the past. It is very mind boggling. The first answer that comes to mind is the "person", the Ego. But as I said, I am aware that there is nothing to gain from that seeing, so Ego would not be interested since its only interest is gaining stuff. Then the seer of Truth must be the "observer", the witness of all that is happening. I will explain what I mean by this. Sometimes in mediation I become aware that I can't really know ANYTHING for sure in this world, except that I exist and I can observe whatever is happening around me, no matter if its all an illusion or not. The only thing that CAN'T be and illusion is the sense "I am" or "I exist". So that "I am" would be the only one who can see the Truth, because all else is part of the seen and can be an illusion. But on first look this contradicts with the statement "The "I" does not exist". In one case you see the whole world as an illusion and only the "I" is real, in the other case the world is absolutely real, only the I is the illusion. I wonder though if its all and the same, like if everything was covered in super bright light it would seem like total darkness, because you wouldn't be able to see different colors. I think its called a Strange Loop. Maybe I got a bit too philosophical. I really want to put philosophy aside and just experience what is actually here.
So in short - the way I feel now I can answer the truth would be seen by "me", whatever that "me" is. Can't grasp the concept of "truth seeing itself"
I hope you can get what I'm saying. Obviously English is not my mother tongue, so I'm not sure if I can explain myself well enough.
This is a very well put answer and yes I do understand.
In one case you see the whole world as an illusion and only the "I" is real, in the other case the world is absolutely real, only the I is the illusion. I wonder though if its all and the same, like if everything was covered in super bright light it would seem like total darkness, because you wouldn't be able to see different colors.

How I have come to see this is indeed summed up by "I wonder though if its all and the same". Being is indeed the only thing we can actually see when we look? I prefer this word to awareness as awareness tends to have nuances of observing, ie subjective, happening seems to have nuances of being an object, ie objective. But how can there be one without the other and how are they really different?

Re
The way I feel now I can answer the truth would be seen by "me", whatever that "me" is. Can't grasp the concept of "truth seeing itself"
Anyway the reason I asked this as how no self is seen is not by a sef, LOL, how could it be. But I think you have got it, it is what you really are and get in touch with meditation that has an understanding. Hard to describe but it is not a logical thought, more just a knowing, thats probably why it is often given a special word, "insight" in many spiritual traditions.
I really dont want to continue living with this feeling of hopelessness in me. In the moment I feel life is absolutely meaningless - we are born, one of 7 billion, we live a VERY short(putted in perspective) period of time and then we are gone. In a 100-200 years from now nothing of the very important material things that are happening or existing now would have any value. Dont get me wrong - thees are not suicidal thoughts. I just know(feel) that there is more to life and I dont want to stop until I find it.
I used to feel like this but totally dont now.
we live a VERY short(putted in perspective) period of time and then we are gone.
How do you know this, when did you experience it or is it a belief, is it possible not true?
Your body is gone but are you your body or is there more to it?

I just know(feel) that there is more to life and I dont want to stop until I find it.
Me to :-) I am 54 now and have been looking since 21 :-) Still doing it as I am still finding new things :-)

OK a quick exercise :-) We talked about how something could be known above so lets try this....

Colored Socks


There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment.

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

User avatar
IstinSkiat
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:55 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:16 am

Hi Simon
How do you know this, when did you experience it or is it a belief, is it possible not true?
Your body is gone but are you your body or is there more to it?
I guess its just conditioning, everybody around me, for all of my life, have been afraid of death like its THE end. But lately I really doubt that concept. I dont really know what happens after the physical heart stops pumping, and I dont think there is a way anyone can know it before it actually happens, but I feel that it cant be THE end. I can say that my fear of death is slowly but surely drifting away, and I take that as a sign of spiritual maturity. I trust in some all pervasive power that know exactly what it is doing, and I mean exactly - for instance I imagine it knows why an ant on the street turns left and not right. That said, obviously I cant fully let go and trust it since, as I reported earlier, I almost constantly feel strong contraction(or burning) in my chest and tummy that shows me I have not let go at all yet.
Its a mess - intellectually I have grasped and fully agree with a lot of spiritual concepts, but my body and my reactions to situations and people shows its still on the surface, awakening hasn't dug very deep yet.
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
I get the socks exercise and I fully agree with the above. That is the reason I decided to join LU. I'm tired of all that conceptual crap, in the beginning maybe it was useful, but now I want to start really LOOK and FIND, here in my actual experience, not in mind concepts. And I figured I need help for this. Actually it was somehow hard to ask for help, because I'm the kind of person that can drive for miles in the wrong direction, but wouldn't just stop and ask someone on the street for directions. But I'm glad I did this time. Thanks again for your time with me, I really appreciate it!
Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
I think all is clear. Its a good point about the feeling, because sometimes when I meditate on that chest and belly contraction and separate the sensation from the thoughts about it, it just turns into a warm feeling, not even bad feeling, like if I've put a warming pillow there. But it last for a few seconds only.

User avatar
Sunyata67
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:08 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Sunyata67 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:08 pm

Apologies I didnt post earlier Ivan.

It was my Birthday at the weekend and I was quite busy with life.

That said, obviously I cant fully let go and trust it since, as I reported earlier, I almost constantly feel strong contraction(or burning) in my chest and tummy that shows me I have not let go at all yet.
So its not really part of LU process but I think maybe if you ave some intentions in your meditation it may help. You could try working with the words "Be" and "Open" in your meditation, a bit like mini mantras? That might help with the feeling of contraction, think about how being awake and open is different from being contracted.
Its a mess - intellectually I have grasped and fully agree with a lot of spiritual concepts, but my body and my reactions to situations and people shows its still on the surface, awakening hasn't dug very deep yet.
This is very common, was the same for me, a process is happening, dont worry :-)
but now I want to start really LOOK and FIND, here in my actual experience, not in mind concepts. And I figured I need help for this. Actually it was somehow hard to ask for help, because I'm the kind of person that can drive for miles in the wrong direction, but wouldn't just stop and ask someone on the street for directions. But I'm glad I did this time. Thanks again for your time with me, I really appreciate it!
You have the right attitude and are doing the right things, I am optimistic :-)
I think all is clear. Its a good point about the feeling, because sometimes when I meditate on that chest and belly contraction and separate the sensation from the thoughts about it, it just turns into a warm feeling, not even bad feeling, like if I've put a warming pillow there. But it last for a few seconds only.
Your words tell me you are on the right path with your practice. This is a deep insight. We will come back to this.
Treat this feeling as a guest in your house (there is a great Rumi poem about this). As you sit with it welcome it in and thank it for its message and then ask it why it is there and what it wants you to know and do is my suggestion. You can reassure it you have heard it and that there is no need for it to come again now as you are now aware :-)

So I have a question on this, let me know what you think please.

Emotions are happening as thought added onto physical feelings, can you see the separation clearly between the physical feeling and the interpretation and explanation stories? Who or what is the emotion happening to? Where does it come from and where does it go?

OK an exercise now if you will please.


There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement.

Watch, wait, notice, write- what comes up? Is there fear? Is there a doubt? Resistance? Frustration? Something that wants to scream and make a turn away, something that says this is not working? Or maybe there is a feeling of wow, joy, relief?
Notice all that is going on inside and just put it down in writing.

Since you do a meditation practice you could also try introducing the ideas above as thoughts during a meditation and see if any reactions arise.


It would be great if you could try this and then let me know back in this thread how you found this practice.
I don’t plan to do a lot of theorising and intellectual work, we will be mostly doing practical exercises. I am asking these questions on feelings to get to know you a little better and also so later on we can look back at your replies and see what may have changed.

If you have any questions for me of any sort that’s fine, this will be a two way communication for us.

User avatar
IstinSkiat
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:55 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:25 pm

Apologies I didnt post earlier Ivan.
No worries, I understand that you are a volunteer and you do that in your free time, its not your full time job, so its absolutely OK, I'm not in a rush and dont expect immediate answers. I appreciate your time with me!
It was my Birthday at the weekend and I was quite busy with life.
Happy Birthday! Wish you all the best mate!
Funny, its my Birthday today - 22 April :)
(there is a great Rumi poem about this)
Also funny - you mentioned Rumi - he is my favorite poet! In just a few words(that I dont always understand in my mind) he touches me so deeply. Love him! Can you please share the poem if you can find it?
As you sit with it welcome it in and thank it for its message and then ask it why it is there and what it wants you to know and do is my suggestion. You can reassure it you have heard it and that there is no need for it to come again now as you are now aware :-)
Done that and I think it is telling me(actually yelling at me) - "Wake up, I wont stop bothering you until you wake up!"
As unpleasant as they are, I feel this contractions actually to be my friend. They push me to go further and not to stop until I find! Once I heard a wise man say "Happiness is wrong goal and also a punishment" At first it felt shocking to hear that, but now I understand - If I feel happy with myself(with my phantom I) I wont have that strong drive to know the Truth.

Actually instead of answering the questions in blue I will tell you what happened this few days because its on the same subject.
I'm reading Gateless Gatecrashers and try to really dig deep on the questions that Ilona and Elena ask there. They all seem to me very simple(in a good way). They are all well accepted and understood by me, I can see to what are they pointing, but that seeing wasn't doing anything to my moment experience, understanding was feeling only intellectual.
Then I was pondering on the subject of ownership. For example "my" car. I was thinking - "What is it exactly that makes this particular car "mine". And then it hit me - its NOTHING! Its just a mental agreement with the society, proved with a peace of paper, but the agreement and the paper have NOTHING to do with the actual car! I literally saw(in my imagination) the car and this "agreement" floating over it in the air like a flying label that says "IVAN'S CAR" and this label was made out of nothing. If I sell the car tomorrow and it has a new owner or just throw it away on the junkyard and it has no owner at all, that wont change the essence of the car in ANY way! In reality the car is not in ANY way connected with or affected by the human concept of ownership.
Then I turned that realization to "my" body, "my" feelings, "my" sensations and felt absolutely the same thing - the ownership of them is absolutely fictitious, its also an agreement with society just for convenience(I guess without that agreement the world would be a mess and it is needed in some way, but believing in its real existence makes our living a mess)
So the body is obviously here, the feelings, sensations, all else is here, but I'm definitely not the owner of them, no one is! The ownership of anything is just a thought, not real! So the owner should also be a fiction!
That realization had immediate effect on the current state of the organism - it instantly relaxed a lot. The contraction was almost gone! Everything was feeling more fun and satisfactory.
BUT(you've probably already seen this BUT coming since I write in past tense :) ) That realization doesn't want to stick. When I concentrate on it, when I think again about ownership of the car and then the body and so on, it is felt and it has its calming effect and so on. But when I do my dally business, talk to people, watch TV, ect. I feel like before and the contraction is fully present. Actually now I see that this contraction can use a very good function of a pointer to my state of being or seeing in that particular moment. For example I saw that it comes very strong when I express judgments or opinions, and it makes sense - they are one of the strongest expressions in life that support the illusion of "I".

So what now? I feel this realization as a big step, but if I understand correctly, the realization that LU is pointing to is final. Ilona says its like seeing Santa is not a real person - the second you see this it is for life, you can never again believe in him.

User avatar
Sunyata67
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:08 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Sunyata67 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:06 pm

Hi Ivan

I am enjoying our dialogue very much. Your post has given me a lot to think about. I will respond properly tomorrow. I think you are doing really well with this work on seeing no self. Working through the material outside of our conversation here will be helpful. Here is the poem.

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.
A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.
Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they are a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.
The dark thought, the shame, the malice.
meet them at the door laughing and invite them in.
Be grateful for whatever comes.
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.
— Jellaludin Rumi,

I do just want to say something on this....
So what now? I feel this realization as a big step, but if I understand correctly, the realization that LU is pointing to is final. Ilona says its like seeing Santa is not a real person - the second you see this it is for life, you can never again believe in him.

This is different for everyone, it is essentially true and I believe you will be there. However the things that made up a Santa are still there happening, in this metaphor say a red coat and a white beard, but you do see them differently, it can switch back and forth a bit at first. The thoughts claiming to be a self may still happen, just you will see them as thoughts. It took years to manufacture the belief in a self so it is a tall order for all that to go straight away.

More tomorrow. Many thinks are made of a happening followed by labels, have a look at each of the senses, the input is mostly followed by a judgement as you mention.

User avatar
IstinSkiat
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:55 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:14 pm

Hi Simon
I also enjoy the dialogue very much! :)
Thanks for the poem, it is magical. I haven't read it before. Reading Rumi always have some effects on me. Sometimes it makes me calm, sometimes happy, sometimes I even cry, not knowing why exactly. And I'm not the kind of guy who cry easily. It hits me in some deeper-than-the-mind place. So much wisdom and beauty contained in a few words...
This is different for everyone, it is essentially true and I believe you will be there. However the things that made up a Santa are still there happening, in this metaphor say a red coat and a white beard, but you do see them differently, it can switch back and forth a bit at first. The thoughts claiming to be a self may still happen, just you will see them as thoughts. It took years to manufacture the belief in a self so it is a tall order for all that to go straight away.
Yeah, I should have known by now that I shouldn't rush the process, habit is strong force and never give up easily. Also no two human beings are alike, so I shouldn't expect things to happen to me the exact way they did to someone else.
Also I've learned that words are never absolutely correct because they are just pointers to things in real life, and real life is not a constant, it is a flow - always moving and changing. So words can never "catch-up" so to say. Even the most true-sounding statements should be taken with a grain of salt.

Looking forward to your post tomorrow! It turns into a very good conversation indeed! :)

User avatar
Sunyata67
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:08 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Sunyata67 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:22 pm

Ian I am sorry for a long delay, hopefully I am back on track now. Its been very busy and my drive for any kind of enquiry dropped off. I hope you would still like to continue…? I should be able to respond more promptly now.
As you sit with it welcome it in and thank it for its message and then ask it why it is there and what it wants you to know and do is my suggestion. You can reassure it you have heard it and that there is no need for it to come again now as you are now aware :-)
Done that and I think it is telling me(actually yelling at me) - "Wake up, I wont stop bothering you until you wake up!"
As unpleasant as they are, I feel this contractions actually to be my friend. They push me to go further and not to stop until I find! Once I heard a wise man say "Happiness is wrong goal and also a punishment" At first it felt shocking to hear that, but now I understand - If I feel happy with myself(with my phantom I) I wont have that strong drive to know the Truth.
I agree fully with what you are saying, happiness is not possible as a permanent state while we are living human beings. Have you heard of the term “equanimity”? A good question to ask when your thoughts are claiming that you are unhappy, or indeed happy is this “who or what is happy?” Can you try that, look beyond the feelings to where they may be coming from, also what are they made off, one thing or layers of things? and do they have a location in reality?
Actually instead of answering the questions in blue I will tell you what happened this few days because its on the same subject.
I'm reading Gateless Gatecrashers and try to really dig deep on the questions that Ilona and Elena ask there. They all seem to me very simple(in a good way). They are all well accepted and understood by me, I can see to what are they pointing, but that seeing wasn't doing anything to my moment experience, understanding was feeling only intellectual.
Interesting. My advice is bear with it, the exercises do work.
Which exercises have you felt to be the most powerful in terms of giving an emotional response or an “aha” moment of understanding? I would be interested to hear how you have been getting on.
Then I was pondering on the subject of ownership. For example "my" car. I was thinking - "What is it exactly that makes this particular car "mine". And then it hit me - its NOTHING! Its just a mental agreement with the society, proved with a peace of paper, but the agreement and the paper have NOTHING to do with the actual car! I literally saw(in my imagination) the car and this "agreement" floating over it in the air like a flying label that says "IVAN'S CAR" and this label was made out of nothing. If I sell the car tomorrow and it has a new owner or just throw it away on the junkyard and it has no owner at all, that wont change the essence of the car in ANY way! In reality the car is not in ANY way connected with or affected by the human concept of ownership.
Yes, this a is a helpful exercise for anything that is claimed by a me see if it can exist without the mine concept added. Try it with emotions as I suggested above. What is the me that is affected? Is there a me that is aware of being unhappy, is it the same as the unhappiness or is it separate? Have you heard of the term “the witness” or “the watcher”? Is the emotion happening within an awareness and how is a “you” aware of it? What qualities does “awareness” have? Is it located in your whole body or a specific place. Can your awareness be outside of your body? On more than one thing at once? Is an “I” needed for awareness or can awareness be present without an I but directly from the senses?
Then I turned that realization to "my" body, "my" feelings, "my" sensations and felt absolutely the same thing - the ownership of them is absolutely fictitious, its also an agreement with society just for convenience(I guess without that agreement the world would be a mess and it is needed in some way, but believing in its real existence makes our living a mess)
So the body is obviously here, the feelings, sensations, all else is here, but I'm definitely not the owner of them, no one is! The ownership of anything is just a thought, not real! So the owner should also be a fiction!
Correct….
That realization had immediate effect on the current state of the organism - it instantly relaxed a lot. The contraction was almost gone! Everything was feeling more fun and satisfactory.
BUT(you've probably already seen this BUT coming since I write in past tense :) ) That realization doesn't want to stick. When I concentrate on it, when I think again about ownership of the car and then the body and so on, it is felt and it has its calming effect and so on. But when I do my dally business, talk to people, watch TV, ect. I feel like before and the contraction is fully present. Actually now I see that this contraction can use a very good function of a pointer to my state of being or seeing in that particular moment. For example I saw that it comes very strong when I express judgments or opinions, and it makes sense - they are one of the strongest expressions in life that support the illusion of "I".
You are doing great to be seeing this. Just stick with it. Yes these moments of unease are great pointers. Have a look at this video, what do you think of it?
Mooji pretty much describes the process I would like you to try, better than i can in words typing here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4dgzml ... xv2e_GCDDE
Thanks for the poem, it is magical. I haven't read it before. Reading Rumi always have some effects on me. Sometimes it makes me calm, sometimes happy, sometimes I even cry, not knowing why exactly. And I'm not the kind of guy who cry easily. It hits me in some deeper-than-the-mind place. So much wisdom and beauty contained in a few words... Yeah, I should have known by now that I shouldn't rush the process, habit is strong force and never give up easily. Also no two human beings are alike, so I shouldn't expect things to happen to me the exact way they did to someone else.
Also I've learned that words are never absolutely correct because they are just pointers to things in real life, and real life is not a constant, it is a flow - always moving and changing. So words can never "catch-up" so to say. Even the most true-sounding statements should be taken with a grain of salt.
Exactly, you are understanding well. An explanation or story does not exist in reality but can only point to it.

Lets do some exercises, where would you like to look, thoughts or sensations? The nature of direct experience versus interpretations of that experience? Your practice with the Gateless Gatecrashers will probably have suggested a direction?

User avatar
IstinSkiat
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:55 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Sun May 24, 2020 10:51 am

Ian I am sorry for a long delay, hopefully I am back on track now. Its been very busy and my drive for any kind of enquiry dropped off. I hope you would still like to continue…? I should be able to respond more promptly now.
Hi Simon! No worries, I understand that this kind of guidance requires relaxed state of being, its not something to be rushed or doing it in state of pressure. So please write to me when it feels right, no schedule here ;) I highly appreciate your time! It helps me a lot!
In fact the timing couldn't be better! I'll tell you why. The last few days was a bit like a roller coaster. It happens to me often after some bigger realization. For a day or two after the realization I feel better and calmer, and then the mind hits hard. I feel a lot of frustration, uneasiness...hard to stay with myself as a whole. I know this is common with spiritual seekers, and I can see why it happens. The mind sees that the realization is good for the organism and wants to keep it as a tool and use it. But that always causes an internal feeling disaster.
This morning I felt this heavy "mind" energy is coming to an end. And then I opened my mailbox and found out that you have written to me :) So all is well!
Have you heard of the term “equanimity”?
Yes, in my teens(long before I knew what "spirituality" is) I often felt everything is fine, even in very intense situations. Once my father passed out while he was driving. I just pulled the handbrake, grabbed the wheel and pulled over. Then I went to the hospital(this happened just in front of it luckily) and called some medics to help him. I did it like it was nothing, almost like a walk in the park. Something inside me was constantly telling me - "all is fine in the end". Lately that feeling is coming back. I can easily distinguish right from wrong, good from bad, but deep inside I know for sure, that its all a fiction, all is well in life(and not in a false overly-optimistic way).
A good question to ask when your thoughts are claiming that you are unhappy, or indeed happy is this “who or what is happy?”
Cant answer that, but just asking the question makes me feel more relaxed for a while(until the mind says "I can use this question as a tool to relax the organism" Then all relaxation goes to the trash).
Can you try that, look beyond the feelings to where they may be coming from,
If we are talking about internal feelings(not external like hot, cold, pain...) it looks like the feelings are coming from thoughts, although I often have feelings that I cant relate to particular thought, but in this case I assume they come from some sub-conscious thought. The thoughts are coming from nowhere. They just appear. Most of the times they follow certain pattern that gives the illusion that I control them, but sometimes they are not obviously related.
also what are they made off, one thing or layers of things? and do they have a location in reality?
More like layers stuck on top of each other. They have location just like sounds have location. I can locate them in some part of the body, but then again - that is also a feeling...its a loop.
Which exercises have you felt to be the most powerful in terms of giving an emotional response or an “aha” moment of understanding?
Maybe when I concentrate on the "there is no one living live" topic gives me most relief. And also most frustration after that.
What is the me that is affected? Is there a me that is aware of being unhappy, is it the same as the unhappiness or is it separate?
When I inquire I dont find any "me" that is unhappy, ect. But in dally life I live, think and feel as if there is such "me". Seeing that makes me inquire more, and more, and more, and in one moment I "burn up"(like I described earlier)
Its obvious that I continuously keep searching for something, even though I read everywhere that the big realization is not something existing to be found, and I believe and somehow see that. But cant stop the search. Obviously. Its frustrating!
.
.
.
.
.
Hello again Simon! I wrote the above right after I received your post on 30th of april. But I didnt post it because it was unfinished. Then I tried to finish it for almost a month, but couldnt write a single word! I "entered" some state that was so frustrating and almost unbearable but I couldnt do a thing to help myself. I mean on the outside life was normal, but internally the burning and frustration was intense. Sorry for delaying for so long, it wasnt intentional.

Now...I dont know how to proceed with this...I'm at the point that I'm too frustrated to continue with the spiritual search yet I know no other way to put an end to that frustration. Feels like sinking in floating sands. Everything I do makes me sink more and more, but I cant just stop and do nothing. Sounds like deep depression, but I dont feel it like that. So confusing!

I see the problem in the moment is the constant search. God damn it! I even search fulfillment in watching some beautiful sight, like sunset. Like its gonna give me something!!! And get frustrated when it expectedly does not!

User avatar
Sunyata67
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:08 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Sunyata67 » Sun May 31, 2020 10:59 am

Hello Ian

So I am back and happy to be talking to you, again we have a bit of a delay. I have been busy with life, I got a small puppy at the moment, she is 9 weeks and needs a lot of my attention. Also my practice at the moment is not so strong, am just sitting in the heart/mind and being, no real wish for anything further right now. I don’t want you to feel any pressure about anything, we can talk/not talk, however you want to go I am happy to share it with you.
Ian I am sorry for a long delay, hopefully I am back on track now. Its been very busy and my drive for any kind of enquiry dropped off. I hope you would still like to continue…? I should be able to respond more promptly now.
Hi Simon! No worries, I understand that this kind of guidance requires relaxed state of being, its not something to be rushed or doing it in state of pressure. So please write to me when it feels right, no schedule here ;) I highly appreciate your time! It helps me a lot!
In fact the timing couldn't be better! I'll tell you why. The last few days was a bit like a roller coaster. It happens to me often after some bigger realization. For a day or two after the realization I feel better and calmer, and then the mind hits hard. I feel a lot of frustration, uneasiness...hard to stay with myself as a whole. I know this is common with spiritual seekers, and I can see why it happens. The mind sees that the realization is good for the organism and wants to keep it as a tool and use it. But that always causes an internal feeling disaster.
This morning I felt this heavy "mind" energy is coming to an end. And then I opened my mailbox and found out that you have written to me :) So all is well!
Have you heard of the term “equanimity”?
Yes, in my teens(long before I knew what "spirituality" is) I often felt everything is fine, even in very intense situations. Once my father passed out while he was driving. I just pulled the handbrake, grabbed the wheel and pulled over. Then I went to the hospital(this happened just in front of it luckily) and called some medics to help him. I did it like it was nothing, almost like a walk in the park. Something inside me was constantly telling me - "all is fine in the end". Lately that feeling is coming back. I can easily distinguish right from wrong, good from bad, but deep inside I know for sure, that its all a fiction, all is well in life(and not in a false overly-optimistic way).
You have put this very well, I cant really add anything.
A good question to ask when your thoughts are claiming that you are unhappy, or indeed happy is this “who or what is happy?”
Cant answer that, but just asking the question makes me feel more relaxed for a while(until the mind says "I can use this question as a tool to relax the organism" Then all relaxation goes to the trash).
Can you try that, look beyond the feelings to where they may be coming from,
If we are talking about internal feelings(not external like hot, cold, pain...) it looks like the feelings are coming from thoughts, although I often have feelings that I cant relate to particular thought, but in this case I assume they come from some sub-conscious thought. The thoughts are coming from nowhere. They just appear. Most of the times they follow certain pattern that gives the illusion that I control them, but sometimes they are not obviously related.


Yes I would like to look at internal feelings for now, though we will come back to this and look at external feelings. Your answer looks pretty clear, you have obviously looked. Yes I think feelings happen as a response to something as well, and yes often we are not aware of what they are responding to. So the thoughts are coming from somewhere that we cant see, we label it nowhwere. So are the thoughts themselves real, are the contents of the thoughts real, how is the occurrence of a thought related to the content of a though? Thoughts do seem to follow patterns, an you have a look at this please? Do you know before a train of thoughts starts where it will go, can you influence the train of thoughts in any way? How are they “your” thoughts? Can you see thoughts without a you controlling them or is there always a you?
also what are they made off, one thing or layers of things? and do they have a location in reality?
More like layers stuck on top of each other. They have location just like sounds have location. I can locate them in some part of the body, but then again - that is also a feeling...its a loop.
I think it will be helpful to look into this some more. Please look closely at thinking as it happens. How many thoughts can be present in a moment? How many emotions can be present in a moment? Can thought and emotion and awareness be present all at the same time? What in fact is a moment, how big or small is it?
If you think about a point where something is occurring, how big or small is that point, what is the nature of the boundary between that point and everything outside it? So we will look more closely at sensed events later such as sound. But for now lest look at the different locations we can feel emotions. We can bring on emotions just with thoughts, no real event happening now in reality is needed. Please think about someone you love and care for, think about a great time you had together when you were both happy, wish for them to be happy now. Do you have any emotions? Where are they located? Now lets try the opposite, think of someone you were betrayed by or hurt you, think of that time. Now look at the emotions here, how are they different from the previous emotions? In either case can you see a “self”, here and now in reality that is manufacturing these emotions?

Which exercises have you felt to be the most powerful in terms of giving an emotional response or an “aha” moment of understanding?
Maybe when I concentrate on the "there is no one living live" topic gives me most relief. And also most frustration after that.
Can you tell me some more about this please?
What is the me that is affected? Is there a me that is aware of being unhappy, is it the same as the unhappiness or is it separate?


When I inquire I dont find any "me" that is unhappy, ect.
I find that to, unhappiness is the same for all people, nothing special about mine.

But in dally life I live, think and feel as if there is such "me". Seeing that makes me inquire more, and more, and more, and in one moment I "burn up"(like I described earlier)
Its obvious that I continuously keep searching for something, even though I read everywhere that the big realization is not something existing to be found, and I believe and somehow see that. But cant stop the search. Obviously. Its frustrating!
.
Searching is needed otherwise there would be no motivation to look closely at ourselves and reality..
.
.
.
Hello again Simon! I wrote the above right after I received your post on 30th of april. But I didnt post it because it was unfinished. Then I tried to finish it for almost a month, but couldnt write a single word! I "entered" some state that was so frustrating and almost unbearable but I couldnt do a thing to help myself. I mean on the outside life was normal, but internally the burning and frustration was intense. Sorry for delaying for so long, it wasnt intentional.

Now...I dont know how to proceed with this...I'm at the point that I'm too frustrated to continue with the spiritual search yet I know no other way to put an end to that frustration. Feels like sinking in floating sands. Everything I do makes me sink more and more, but I cant just stop and do nothing. Sounds like deep depression, but I dont feel it like that. So confusing!

So I think we need to have some compassion for ourselves, I think things will happen when they want to. I have had similar periods in my life. What helped me then was a Zen saying “this too will pass”. The more you see the less frustration is how this worked for me. There is no me having realizations, but you do need to consciously look at reality and experience and think about what is seen (or not seen). I cant think of any real exercise or advice, only this simple one, if it doesn’t feel right then don’t do it.
I see the problem in the moment is the constant search. God damn it! I even search fulfillment in watching some beautiful sight, like sunset. Like its gonna give me something!!! And get frustrated when it expectedly does not!
For me these words contain some real wisdom. So how is searching a problem, do you have the tools and opportunity to search, what specifically is an issue with it? The next sentences I think there is a real good point in there, but I don’t feel I can write any words about it. What I can suggest is think about what would give something and what would receive. Are you really missing anything? Is there really nothing there in being in a beautiful sunset, or are there only thoughts?
I am done with seeking for now, but not with living, but like you I was obsessively seeking for a long time.

User avatar
IstinSkiat
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:55 pm

Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Sun May 31, 2020 4:42 pm

Hi Simon, thanks for responding :)
Yes, pets are wonderful and can fill your life with lots of love, but they are also big responsibility and sometimes pain in the ass:) We have a small pure white rabbit with blue eyes. Its unreal how beautiful it is, but on the other hand our living room is a mess because of it. Our wallpapers are all eaten up, our sofa and carpets are full of wholes... But we just cant get angry with it, its so cute.
Thoughts do seem to follow patterns, an you have a look at this please? Do you know before a train of thoughts starts where it will go, can you influence the train of thoughts in any way? How are they “your” thoughts? Can you see thoughts without a you controlling them or is there always a you?
also what are they made off, one thing or layers of things?
I have a theory about the apparent pattern of the thoughts. May be we have many many thoughts at any moment, big part of them are random and not related to each other, but we pay attention only to those which are related and just dont pay any attention on all the others, because our minds like order and logic and ignores all else.
and do they have a location in reality?
The way I see it lately is that thoughts have location as long as my cup of tea(for example) have a location. I see it that way because in our dreams we see different things that apparently have location and in the dream we believe they are very real. But when we wake up in the morning we clearly see that it was all in our thoughts, it was all made up. So... no matter how hard I search I find no proof that in the "waking state" anything have any location. The only difference between a dream and the so-called "reality" is the continuity of the "reality" and the randomness of the dreams. If every night my dreams continued from when I left them in the morning, I wouldn't know which is the dream and which is "real" That gives me the conclusion that maybe nothing is real!?
I think it will be helpful to look into this some more. Please look closely at thinking as it happens. How many thoughts can be present in a moment? How many emotions can be present in a moment? Can thought and emotion and awareness be present all at the same time? What in fact is a moment, how big or small is it?
If you think about a point where something is occurring, how big or small is that point, what is the nature of the boundary between that point and everything outside it?
I pondered about this alot lately. At first I see myself as a "watcher" of everything. So I ask who is this watcher. Where is it located? But I see that he is also seen. From where? If I find any point that is watching everything around it, no matter how small it is, it itself is watched from somewhere else if I see it, right? So the watcher cant be even a point. It must be NOthing! There is no other way! And simultaneously it must be everything, because if it was just Nothing, it wouldn't see a thing. And it sees everything. I see everything. I cannot not see. I cannot be unaware! I am the world and the world is me! Its fascinating!
I think the above is all you have to know and understand about the so called "enlightenment" And I fully see it and understand it. But again - it must only be intellectual, because the search and suffering continues. For what reason? I see the search is causing the suffering! And I continue to search nevertheless! I feel at the tip of the iceberg and also at the rock-bottom at the same time. So frustrating!!! Makes me feel angry and hopeless!
We can bring on emotions just with thoughts, no real event happening now in reality is needed. Please think about someone you love and care for, think about a great time you had together when you were both happy, wish for them to be happy now. Do you have any emotions? Where are they located? Now lets try the opposite, think of someone you were betrayed by or hurt you, think of that time. Now look at the emotions here, how are they different from the previous emotions? In either case can you see a “self”, here and now in reality that is manufacturing these emotions?
I can see such a self. And I can see that I can see it, so its not me. It must be construction of the mind.
I am aware that thoughts can create strong and real emotions, even if the thoughts themselves are clearly not real. If I think of a spider and if I'm afraid of spiders I will feel strong fear and maybe sweat alot. Even if there is no real spider in radius of 100miles. So how can I distinguish "real" emotions from "false" one? I cant! No way! They are all reactions to thoughts, and thoughts cant be verified in any way. Maybe all thoughts are unreal? So maybe all emotions are unreal? Its all a dream? Lila as they call it?
What is the me that is affected? Is there a me that is aware of being unhappy, is it the same as the unhappiness or is it separate?
I see what are you pointing to. Me is unreal. There is only the feeling, noone feeling it. But how to live like that? What will be the motivation? Anything I do at the moment(and all my life) is motivated by the benefiting of the "me". If there is no me, who will live life? What will be the motivation? My current motivation(to benefit the "me" whichever way possible) may be completely futile, because the "me" is imaginary, but at least it keeps life going. So confusing!
I have had similar periods in my life. What helped me then was a Zen saying “this too will pass”. The more you see the less frustration is how this worked for me.
It helps me too. I mean if I didn't feel, that all this confusion, frustration and suffering I experience at the moment don't lead me to some grater future, maybe I would just jump off a cliff or something :)! I wouldn't see a point to continue. But luckily I see a point. I really believe it is just momentary and it is needed. Its something like "cleaning" maybe.
But for now I dont see less frustration unfortunately. I feel stuck on one level. But I have hope that frustration will lessen in the future. And try not to force things, because I saw that forcing just makes things worse.
What I can suggest is think about what would give something and what would receive. Are you really missing anything? Is there really nothing there in being in a beautiful sunset, or are there only thoughts?
I see in reality the sunset, the "me" who sees it, the warm feeling which usually arises...its all one. And some thought pattern arises which tries to capture that good warm feeling, but in reality it banishes it. And then another thought pattern arises that tries to banish the first one... and it creates frustration. And another thought tries to connect the frustration with the "me". And if it succeeds, I feel frustrated. I see this whole process, but that doesn't end the suffering, like its supposed to.


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 1 guest