Seeking I guess, always seeking.

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:44 pm

Hi Jon

I personally feel as though I am a little stuck here, but here's my best efforts either way.
its often expressed in terms of the idea that there is something called 'perception' , and a 'separate' object that.is 'perceived' as well as one who does the perceiving. A 'perceiver'
At first I felt as if I understood this, but now I'm not so sure. It was clear that the experience of the orange and the orange itself are one in the same, there's no room to seperate the two nor does them being seperate even make much sense, and yet a sense of "I am experiencing this" persists. I don't know how to describe this better.
One question is 'where' then? If a me is 'there', where is that?
It's not in sight.
It's not in sound.
It's not in touch.

It's perhaps still in thought, there's a sense of control over thought still, and control is seen as something I do. I may not be able to predict the thoughts that go through my head but a sense of influence over them still provides that sense of me. That "my" influence is in directing my attention and applying effort, intentions and choice. That a "me" is needed to accomplish anything. It's me that gets me out of bed when the alarm goes off but the bed is still comfortable and a me who is choosing to come to this site and engage in this.
Also, is it really a sense of me, as such? In the orange experiment the real orange was really sensed, whilst the idea of an orange remained as an idea.
I have no idea how I could seperate an idea from a sense, is there a difference, what is it? Are ideas not what is applied to a sense. How we make sense of senses?
Its common, too, to strain to get to a 'no self' state of some sort and thereby miss the obvious.
I may be doing this, but if I am I don't know how to stop. You say it's obvious, but it doesn't feel that way, only thing that is obvious is my confusion. Self is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. I feel as though it's there and can't find it, yet the lack of finding it doesn't constitue evidence of it's absense, only evidence that I don't fully understand what I'm looking at.
Given what you've said about feeling that it's a 'me' that experiences, its worth looking to see what this 'me' actually is?

That's to say, where are it's edges?

Does it have edges or boundaries?
I covered this a little all over but to summarise.

Not in experience but in choice, attention and effort or perhaps my "will" are its boundaries. After "my" will, what happens may not be me, but there had to be a me to set it off. Like me is a silent director.

Trying to look at this me is very difficult and I don't really feel 100% certain in anything I've said. This is all confusing territory.

Thanks.

Liam.

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:42 am

I just wanted to add, a place where self is spotted a lot is when in this what we're doing here. Whenever I am looking at experience looking for evidence of a self.or lack thereof, it very much reinforces that "I". As I said before self is very much associated with intent and will.

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:38 am

I don't seem to be able to sleep tonight, I keep thinking about this.

I wanted to add a little more about effort and what it means to me as it's where self feels the strongest. This might be more in the realm of psychology but it feels relevant right now so here goes.

A big element in my life for as long as I can remember has been a constant battle between what I want to do and who I am, pitted against what I should do and who I should be. I can be exceptionally lazy and endlessly procrastinate. My employment history is so spotty I need to invent a whole past to make my job applications have any chance. I also love being alone, to such a degree I can spend months without any social interaction and be happy about it.

Alas these traits are not what the world wants of me and I fear it will lead to suffering, despite my current comfort with it. If things like money and health were no issue and would never be so in the future. I'd think nothing of this current "me" and carry on endlessly with it. That's not the world I live in though. This is where "I" come in. In order change this lifestyle that isn't really compatible with my environment. "I" have to make it change, no one is going to change it for me. My cat isn't, I'm not going to magically wake up one morning with a whole new personality out of the blue. The world around me can't be expected to change for my benefit. So the last recourse, the only thing I can really rely on, is "me". If "I" work hard enough and apply enough effort and will and intention, then "I" can make "me" do and be what "I" need to be. Whenever "I" do something that was uncomfortable but necessary. It feels very much like it was done by an "I". As it featured opposing forces, the will and intent to to do the difficult thing, provided by "me". Pitted against that habit, comfort and attraction to not doing said thing. If anything it's not just will, but free will, the belief that "I can assert at least a little control over my life with enough "effort" which is something that can only be provided by "me".

I hope I can get some sleep now I've written this down. Thanks for reading.

Liam.

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JonathanR
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby JonathanR » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:31 am

Hi Liam,

Happy New Year.

Thanks for your posts.

I'm struck by how you say you've always been happy to spend time alone and to not do very much.

Then there are thoughts about a need for motivation, will and sustained effort.
. "I" have to make it change, no one is going to change it for me.
For whom or what does this change have to happen?

What is it that you really want?


Love

Jon

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:19 pm

Hi Jon, happy new year.

i gave you alot to read last night, apologies for assaulting you with such a wall of text.
For whom or what does this change have to happen?
Sometimes "I" am the desire to change, pitted against the desire for things to stay the same. Other times it's the other way around, "I" am happy with how things are but feel pressure to change. Then there are times when I'm neither but instead feel like I am an observer of this back and forth stuck in the middle and forced to watch. I think this may have been a result of taking up meditation a few years back and spending more time observing these thoughts and feelings, "I" started to become the observer. I remember hating the two at one point as I saw the source of the distress was not in either side of the story but in the conflict between the two. As I have been in many different positions in this "play" over the years I don't know what "I" want really. I don't know who or what "I" am in all of it. Neither side feels more "me" than the other.

It's almost if "I" is a can be picked up and moved around. Although "I" do not appear to be able to do so at will. Right now "I" am the one examining "I". Tomorrow "I" may be elsewhere.
What is it that you really want?
That's the million dollar question. Regardless of where "I" am at any time, what "I" am currently wanting, one aspect is constant throughout. If it's going to happen, "I" have to make it happen. Control maybe, or maybe it's not control, maybe it's feel that I don't have enough, maybe I just want to be free of that.

Thanks.

Liam.

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:46 pm

I suppose what I really want is the weight of my life of my shoulders, as that's what it feels like, whatever side I come down, whatever I need/want/have to be/do, it comes with a heavy weight.

I suppose that's a good word for my "self", heavy.

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JonathanR
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby JonathanR » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:10 pm

Hi Liam,

Don't worry about posting several times if that's what you feel like doing.

All that you've said gives me a very good idea how to be of assistance.

You've highlighted various conflicting wants. That means that if we push on in one direction very hard its opposite is likely to appear.

In this situation there is only one thing that will work and that would be to look for evidence of a self, to the point of exhausting all hiding places.

If the thought of this creates any anxiety or reluctance please let me know?

If I say 'there is no self, never was, never will be'. How does that feel?

Thank you.

Jon

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:08 pm

HiJon.
Don't worry about posting several times if that's what you feel like doing.
I do find myself thinking about stuff I want to add after posting quite frequently. As if the initial action gets an engine running that takes a while to cool down.
You've highlighted various conflicting wants. That means that if we push on in one direction very hard its opposite is likely to appear.
I've noticed this reaction myself whenever I have commited to one side or the other in the past, grass is always greener it seems.
If the thought of this creates any anxiety or reluctance please let me know?
No not at all, at least not right now anyway.
If I say 'there is no self, never was, never will be'. How does that feel?
Like some appealing fantasy and promise of weight lifted. I've always seen my "self" as a heavy weight that must be very carefully handled or it'll cause injury and suffering. I must do/think/act correctly or suffer because of it. It also is a somewhat frustrating concept. Despite not being able to see a "self" it feels very much as though I "am" it. Like some impossible riddle to solve. It's also a little scary, in a way "self" is kind of the center of everything to say there's no such thing almost sounds like annihilation, though if there never was a self to begin with then I guess there's nothing to annihilate. It can also be scary in the sense that as "self" is what is needed for control, at least in what it looks like for me, no "self" implies chaos.

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JonathanR
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby JonathanR » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:55 pm

. I do find myself thinking about stuff I want to add after posting quite frequently. As if the initial action gets an engine running that takes a while to cool down.
Feel free to let it run. It's fine.
. Like some appealing fantasy and promise of weight lifted. I've always seen my "self" as a heavy weight that must be very carefully handled or it'll cause injury and suffering
What weight could need lifting?

Where is this thing that'll cause injury?

I mean really? We could go on speaking in symbolic language, AS IF there really were a 'heavy weight' and consequences of actual physical damage through mis-handling and injury.

But is there?

Look for that thing you're trying to speak of. Look under the words to see if a real something is there.
. It can also be scary in the sense that as "self" is what is needed for control, at least in what it looks like for me, no "self" implies chaos.
But what if there's a flaw in understanding about the way everything happens? We can look into this closely and test it, if you like?

Best wishes

Jon

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:53 pm

Hi Jon.
I mean really? We could go on speaking in symbolic language, AS IF there really were a 'heavy weight' and consequences of actual physical damage through mis-handling and injury.

But is there?
No there isn't, of course there isn't. I just find talking about a "self" really difficult to do in practical matter of fact terms. I can't see point to it directly and yet I'm so sure of it's existence. The more I say it the more crazy it sounds, but here we are.
Look for that thing you're trying to speak of. Look under the words to see if a real something is there.
I can't find anything under words, seems words are needed to make sense of anything. I do think in the same language I speak after all. When I "look" my attention tends to go to my body, and my thoughts around it are, I can feel this body so I must be in here. Similar kind of logic with thought. I'm continuing to feel crazy thinking about it. I can't find me in the body or the mind, or even the awareness. Yet it still feels as though there has to be a "me". The idea of all this just happening without a "me" seems to be an equally crazy idea too. I mean, there is a perspective, I'm not hearing the thoughts of another mind or feeling another body's sensation's.

I guess I'm still very stuck on the idea of, if there's an experience, there needs to be an experiencer in order for the experience to be possible. So that experiencer is what I am. It's called Liam and is the owner of the various desires and intentions that present themselves.
But what if there's a flaw in understanding about the way everything happens? We can look into this closely and test it, if you like?
This is what I'm curious about so much and why am here. It's what I want to do but absolutely need to do it, I'll just around in circles otherwise.

Thank you.

Liam.

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:22 pm

This is what I'm curious about so much and why am here. It's what I want to do but absolutely need help to do it, I'll just around in circles otherwise.

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JonathanR
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby JonathanR » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:01 am

Hi Liam
I can't see point to it directly and yet I'm so sure of it's existence.The more I say it the more crazy it sounds, but here we are.
What if that's because it both is and isn't?

What if it's entirely possible to notice that there can't actually be a separate self at the same time as noticing that one seems to appear?
I can't find anything under words, seems words are needed to make sense of anything. I do think in the same language I speak after all. When I "look" my attention tends to go to my body, and my thoughts around it are, I can feel this body so I must be in here. Similar kind of logic with thought. I'm continuing to feel crazy thinking about it. I can't find me in the body or the mind, or even the awareness. Yet it still feels as though there has to be a "me". The idea of all this just happening without a "me" seems to be an equally crazy idea too. I mean, there is a perspective, I'm not hearing the thoughts of another mind or feeling another body's sensation's.
Perfectly good points!
I guess I'm still very stuck on the idea of, if there's an experience, there needs to be an experiencer in order for the experience to be possible. So that experiencer is what I am. It's called Liam and is the owner of the various desires and intentions that present themselves.
I'm going to be cheeky here and suggest a possible changing of your words here. Hope you wont mind the experiment?....

What if you wrote:

'if there's an experience, there would seem to be the need for an experiencer , in order for the experience to be possible. But experiencer and the experience are not separate things and this is what I am. It can be labelled Liam and described as 'the owner' of the various desires and intentions that present themselves. But in reality it's just whats happening, plus some interpretations.

About 'how things happen'. Here are a couple of things to look at:

'Choices'. It is often assumed that 'I choose'. Does it seem that choices between alternatives do happen, somehow?

Place both hands palm down on a table. One hand must be raised in the air whilst the other must stay where it is on the table. That must happen.

Notice if a choice between hands is made.

Look for the exact moment of choice, the 'choice-point'. See if a choice made by a you can be noticed?

Does that choice DO anything?

Does one hand go up without it being at all clear how a thought about a hand being raised actually makes the hand go up?

Let me know how it goes?

Thanks

Jon

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JonathanR
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby JonathanR » Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:58 pm

Hi Liam

Just wondering if you have had time to look at these things?

Jon

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:14 pm

Hi, Jon sorry for the delay. Weekend was a little busy, I had one of those birthday things and found myself not really being able to give this appropiate time.

I do want to be more consistent and rapid with this though and will try to do so from here on.

Anyway.
What if that's because it both is and isn't?

What if it's entirely possible to notice that there can't actually be a separate self at the same time as noticing that one seems to appear?
I guess this is the goal, it's what I've been trying to see these past few weeks. It does sound very possible and even logical really. I haven't mentioned it yet, but for the past few weeks or so I've had moments during mind wandering and attempts to "look", where my "self" almost feels like it's shifted from being at the center of everything as it normally is. To feeling like a passing idea like any other. This is just a moment though, as soon as I notice this shift it vanishes and am left wondering if I saw anything at all, it's over so quickly. That's why I haven't felt like mentioning it yet as it feels so flakey and untangible with how momentary it is. Like a nanosecond of "I get it" followed by "what was it again?"

Would I know if I "got it", would there be any certainty in it?
What if you wrote...
there would seem to be the need for an experiencer
I see this, it's true I can't confirm that an experiencer is required. It's more of an assumption that just feels like it fits.
But experiencer and the experience are not separate things and this is what I am.
(I spent quite a while on this next paragrapgh, I wanted to just point out that this struck me somehow)

I can't quite make sense of this sentence. Is this to say I am the experience as opposed to the experiencer, that if experience is not seperate from what is experienced and this leaves no room for an experiencer. Then because there's no room for an experiencer that means I could be described as the experience itself, or nothing at all. Perhaps it would make more sens to say that the Liam with all the thoughts and feeling that are associated with I/Liam are just another part of this experience with no more "me" in then that any other part of experience. That "I" am no more Liam than I am the feel of the keyboard, the colour of the screen. This all makes sense really, thoughI still feel as though i am making choices. This really if the sticking point as you say. Speaking of...
Place both hands palm down on a table. One hand must be raised in the air whilst the other must stay where it is on the table. That must happen.

Notice if a choice between hands is made.

Look for the exact moment of choice, the 'choice-point'. See if a choice made by a you can be noticed?
I am having trouble interpreting my results here. There's plenty of moments where I think "ok here it is, I'll lift my left" but then maybe I don't or I'll lift the other hand just for the sake of doing something other than the thought. The thought wasn't the decision really, just a thought. I only really feel like a decision has been made after a hand has been raised where I look back at the event and feel as though the decision must have happened somewhere between no movement and movement. Every time I lift it I feel as though I just missed it and I should try again. After many attempts I don't feel like I've ever spotted a moment of decision. There's just this sense of "my hand is raising so I must be deciding this" but I can't find the decision itself.

That's what I have for now.

Thanks

Liam

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JonathanR
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:11 pm

Hi Liam
. I do want to be more consistent and rapid with this though and will try to do so from here on.
No rush. On the other hand it often does help these inquiries to post regularly.
. I haven't mentioned it yet, but for the past few weeks or so I've had moments during mind wandering and attempts to "look", where my "self" almost feels like it's shifted from being at the center of everything as it normally is. To feeling like a passing idea like any other. This is just a moment though, as soon as I notice this shift it vanishes and am left wondering if I saw anything at all, it's over so quickly.
This is good. It's exactly where to look. Not obsessively like a cat waiting for a mouse but more like glancing inquisitively....

Is there one there?

If you suspected that there was someone standing in the room, immediately behind you, but you weren't sure about it, what would you do?

This can seem very subtle indeed so what you have reported is relevant.

We can come back to 'choices' and 'decisions' later but let's focus on the above for a day or two. The investigations you have so far done on this are great.

Thank you.

Jon


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