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[Ramonlull]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no self, no ego, no I, no me. There is nothing to achieve or to attain. It just is.

What are you looking for at LU?
Not sure. I am amazed by the concept of sth like this existing. Maybe being a guide myself some day. A friend of mine told me about it. It helped him a lot. Which is actually amazing, because up til now I assumed that this happens by itself and there can be no help (nor obstacle).

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Nothing. I want to explore the possibilities of this tool/method/service. Curiosity.
After awakening things just start to get interesting. Strange things happen and there is no one to talk about them. 'I' lost self identification. But not self yet.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I tried out a multitude for about 20 years. Then gave it up for about 10 years. And then awakening happened.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[JonathanR]

Hi Ramonlull

Nice to meet you. I'm Jon and I guide here. We can talk if you like.

. I want to explore the possibilities of this tool/method/service. Curiosity.
After awakening things just start to get interesting. Strange things happen and there is no one to talk about them. 'I' lost self identification. But not self yet.

Very interesting. Normally our conversations on this forum are for people who are still wanting to see through 'self'. So we guide to that point. I can understand how you might want to find out how to guide, but you are really saying that seeing that there is no self has been happening for some time?

In that case, instead of guiding I would like to start by finding out if we are 'on the same page'. Does that sound fair?let me know if this is OK and you are prepared to answer some questions?

Best wishes

Jon

[Ramonlull]

Dear Jon.
Thank you for your kind reply.
Yes. That is what I am saying. Only not for "some time".
I don' t really have anyone to talk to about it, except one friend whom this paged was very helpful to a couple of years ago, and he recommended it.
Meanwhile I take back considering guiding. There is nothing to say. It's so hard to put into sensible words. It gets flattened out as soon as it is spoken or written.
It startet in May and culminated in November, in the realization that there is no I. There is an empty hull doing and experiencing things. But I' m not doing it.
It's a little more than a month ago, but it feels like 3 months or doesn't make sense to put a date on it.
Mostly I have trouble adjusting in social interaction now. I feel like acting or roleplaying most of the time or else simply 'watch' "me" going through routines and blathering.
Best regards. R

[JonathanR]

Hi R,

Thanks for your reply .

There is sonething thstcwe coukd tske a look at, if youre willing? You said

There is an empty hull doing and experiencing things. But I' m not doing it.

Is it really like that?

I mean, is there an experience of an empty hull experiencing things?

What limits experience to an 'empty hull'?

All best

Jon

[Ramonlull]

Dear Jon.
Thank you, excellent question.
There is a kind of indifference.
There is the perception of all being one big translucent soup taking on shapes and densities.
There is an I doing and thinking and feeling, but it's like watching someone else.
I have no idea who is watching what I previously identified myself with as I. Who is watching my personality?
I don't know.
Is there an empty hull?
No.
It's like there being nothing.
But who experiences this nothing and this thinking about nothing and indifference and seeing a soup and acting during communication?
Let me mull about it...
Thank you,
Ramon

[Ramonlull]

Dear Jon,

Ok, here is the answer.
There is no observer. There is no hull.
It's all just personality trying to reinvent itself.
I have a lot ob beliefs to shed, being a philosopher. Respectively the shedding happens.
There is the experience of a body, of thinking, of feeling, of perception.
And at the same time there is no one experiencing it. When I look inside - its empty, no one home.
Which is also a phrase I borrowed, and it fits perfectly, so I use it.
That doesn't mean there is an empty hull, or an empty hull experience, or an empty hull experiencing.
Yesterday I came down with a cold. It came, it went. For the first time in my life it was OK. It just happened, and it didn't change anything.
There also is no trouble communicating with people. My need to communicate is my personality.
In truth, there is no need. And if it arises, some people can hear and some can't. It doesn't matter.
There is some experience of indifference and loneliness in all this. But it's Ok, Why not?
It comes, it goes.
But it's not the same each time. Each experience is different, slightly. They seem to be connected and similar, but they are not.
Best wishes, Ramon

[JonathanR]

Hi Ramon,

Thanks for your post. Great to read about your experience!

So you are clearly stating that a 'self' cannot be found. But as you see it now, how do things happen? Do you make anything happen?

And how about choices and decisions? And Free Will!?

Bestwishes?

Jon

[Ramonlull]

Dear Jon.
Thank you for your excellent questions.
I have no reason to believe in free will. As an old Spinoza student determinism seems the most likely course of action. But I try not to believe things and rather verify them by experience. Yet, that would be an apparent choice/decision by an apparent personality.
Things seem to happen by themselves, really. It's a funny and bizarre phenomenon to behold.
Do I make things happen? Since about mid November I very much doubt that. There is no one there to make things happen.
How do things happen?
Good question to mull over the next few days.

Best regards, Ramon

[Ramonlull]

Dear Jon.
Merry Christmas.
How do things happen?
The answer that came was: an endless circle.
I watched the new series The Witcher the last days and when asked if he believed in destiny the protagonist answeres: "Destiny helps people believe there is an order to this horseshit. There isn't."
Before thing happened I thought life as we know it is some form of hell.
Now I dont see it as negative or positive. It just is. Sometimes boring, sometimes full of marvel and suspense. It certainly is not blissful, though.
I don't think god of destiny or accident or cosmic laws or time and space or maya or whatever simplification or projection is necessary to explain all this happening.
It is just happening, whether our human minds can fathom it or not.
The best way for me to express it are an endless circle or thing existing (taiji in daoism) and not existing (wuji) at the same time.
Our minds then invent chains of cause and effect and then evaluate this invention.
There still seems to be a me that takes all this serious and thinks it is doing and choosing things, I admit.
At the same time things just happen, no matter what I think, do or choose.
Best regards, Ramon

[JonathanR]

Hi Ramon

Merry Christmas.

The best way for me to express it are an endless circle or thing existing (taiji in daoism) and not existing (wuji) at the same time.

Nice ☺

Our minds then invent chains of cause and effect and then evaluate this invention.

Its very unteresting, too, the role of language, or words. Does it ever seem to you that commonly expressed assumptions tend to place an 'I' at a centre of things? That this and other ideas about 'how thing are' are more or less enshrined within language?

There still seems to be a me that takes all this serious and thinks it is doing and choosing things, I admit.

Yes. 'seems' to be a me. Are you feeling that this illusion ought not to be happening?

Best wishes

Jon

[Ramonlull]

Dear Jon.
Yes. I noticed the language limitation.
Although it differs a bit between languages.
When I studied anthropological linguistics 20 years ago I was told that there are languages that dont need an object or subject. There are apparantly american first nation languages that say "raining happens" instead of "it is raining".
But as soon as I use language it gets tricky. Although it does seem to be impovable by practice.
And yes. It is confusing that so little has changed. Nothing has changed really. Anticlimactic.
And yet there is a deep calm now.
Do I feel this illusion ought not to be happening.
Yes. Part of me feels that. For part of me it doesnt matter.
Best wishes. Ramon

[JonathanR]

Dear Ramon

But as soon as I use language it gets tricky. Although it does seem to be impovable by practice.

It does seem that thinking and speaking in terms of dualities is enshrined in most everyday language.

And yes. It is confusing that so little has changed. Nothing has changed really. Anticlimactic.

Nothing...but everything ?

And yet there is a deep calm now.

That is good.

Could you say a little more about this? To describe it, or, if you prefer, to say what it isn't?

Thank you

Jon

[Ramonlull]

Dear Jon.
I wouldn't say nothing but everything.
It is like a tree having roots now.
Things are simultaneously more and less real.
I think and feel less, often the mind is blank. Get upset very rarely and if then only for seconds. There is more compassion.
Before there was always the feeling that something was wrong or fake.
Now it is just there and there is no bother or worry.
My personality/ego is just the same as before. But it is/was like a tree without roots. No there are roots to it and life is happening in the roots, mostly. The tree goes on treeing but I notice it less or it is less important now.
There is no more wanting or not wanting anything badly. No more drive.
I wonder what to do now. There are no more goals or aims. Nothing to achieve or avoid.
No more point in working either, it seems.
Yet "I" just keep on going, like a robot.
Like there is more being, but less to no purpose.
Best regards, Ramon

[Ramonlull]

That said...
The I/self/personality/ego is still there. Unchanged.
There is less or no identification with it. But it is still there, unchanged.
There is no wisdom, no liberation, no unleashing of the personality.
I read that there is a second step of awakening, after disidentification. That there can be no self thingy later on.
On the one hand there is the realisation that there is no self. On the other hand it still seems to hover around there somehow. It is a fake, but it doesn't vanish with this revelation.
That seems contradictory.
The question, of course, is, who cares?
The ego cares.
Can the ego want to get rid of itself? Can it be bothered by itself?
My experience fluctuates between tranquility, shedding old skin and being confused by egoic vestiges.
Best wishes, Ramon

[Ramonlull]

Dear Jon.
It is again the unemployed ego trying to invent a story with itself at its center.
It doesn't matter if the ego is there or here ot gone.
I guess there is some getting used to having no more drive or structure. Like getting retired.
Best regards, Ramon