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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:54 am

Hi Vivien,
Bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
Then bring up a thought about a character labelled "stranger".

Compare these thoughts.
Is there a difference in these thoughts?
Only in associated feelings/thoughts.
Is there a true difference or is it just different content?
Just different content. The thought “substance” appears to be the same.
Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.

Is there a difference?
Just in the associated feelings/thoughts.
Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?
No, somewhat surprisingly.

Thank you. Have a good day.

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:04 am

Hi Andrew,
V: Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?
A: No, somewhat surprisingly.
Great!

Can you see that the me-character is nothing else than the thoughts of I/me/my/mine?
Do you have doubts about it?


Look at the words in the list below. As soon as you read them write whatever word appears first beside them. I've completed the first one for you as an example. And while you are doing it, investigate:

Is there an Andrew there deciding on the associated words?

Banana - Monkey
Table -
Lady -
Corner -
Fire -
Paper -
Lamp -
Newspaper -
Murder -
Handle -
Animal -
Food -
Happiness -
Night -
Snow -
Flower -
Gratitude –

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:33 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you, as always.
Can you see that the me-character is nothing else than the thoughts of I/me/my/mine?
Yes, I can see that.
Do you have doubts about it?
Not doubts so much as the sense that when I am picturing that "me" character, "I" am somewhere else. It's quite circular isn't it? Thoughts come from somewhere. The me character is a collection of thoughts. There's nothing here, but something doesn't want to let go.
Look at the words in the list below. As soon as you read them write whatever word appears first beside them. I've completed the first one for you as an example. And while you are doing it, investigate:

Is there an Andrew there deciding on the associated words?
No. Like all thoughts they just come from somewhere. Some had two thoughts come in rapid succession.

Banana - Monkey
Table - chair
Lady - man
Corner - door
Fire - place
Paper - clip
Lamp - shade
Newspaper - diary / rubbish
Murder - death
Handle - door
Animal - fear
Food - eat / full
Happiness - sadness
Night - day
Snow - man
Flower - pot / pretty
Gratitude - love

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:53 am

Hi Andrew,
Not doubts so much as the sense that when I am picturing that "me" character, "I" am somewhere else. It's quite circular isn't it? Thoughts come from somewhere. The me character is a collection of thoughts. There's nothing here, but something doesn't want to let go.
What would need to be let go?

Try this out:

Close your eyes.
Imagine you are holding a melon.
Watch how the image shows up. See the shape, from, size, texture, temperature, colour.

What do you do to create the image?
Where is the I that creates the image? Or the ‘I’ just another image that pops up?

And what do you see when you open your eyes?
What happened to the melon?
Was there ever a melon?

What is here without imagining anything?

Is the I, the character here, or is it imagined like the melon?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:50 pm

Hi Vivien,

Sorry for the slow reply. Busy weekend.
What would need to be let go of?
Oh. Nothing. Everything just does what it does anyway.
Close your eyes.
Imagine you are holding a melon.
Watch how the image shows up. See the shape, form, size, texture, temperature, colour.
What do you do to create the image?
The question prompts the creation. I don’t do anything.
Where is the I that creates the image? Or the ‘I’ just another image that pops up?
I can’t find an ‘I’ or an image. The ‘I’ seems to be taking on the sensation of “being”, but I’ve called that "awareness" in the past.
And what do you see when you open your eyes?
Just everything. Not a melon.
What happened to the melon?
Attention shifted and the image fell away.
Was there ever a melon?
Not outside of thought.
What is here without imagining anything?
Everything. Colors, sounds, feelings.
Is the I, the character here, or is it imagined like the melon?
It's mislabeled sensations, but I don't visualize it like the melon. It's a thought or thoughts attached to feelings. So it doesn't appear as an idea so much as a feeling.

Thank you,

~Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:45 am

Hi Andrew,
The ‘I’ seems to be taking on the sensation of “being”, but I’ve called that "awareness" in the past.
What is this ‘I’ exactly that is seeming taking on the sensation of ‘being’?
Focus on the ‘I’, not on the sensation.
V: Is the I, the character here, or is it imagined like the melon?
A: It's mislabeled sensations, but I don't visualize it like the melon. It's a thought or thoughts attached to feelings. So it doesn't appear as an idea so much as a feeling.
It exactly appears as an idea, you just explained it how.

Doesn’t the thought of an ‘I’ is an idea about a real existing self, living inside the body, feeling the sensation, thinking thoughts, moving the arms, deciding on what to do?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:17 am

Hi Vivien,

The first question was “difficult”. Thank you.
What is this ‘I’ exactly that is seeming taking on the sensation of ‘being’?
It’s just a label. A thought. It’s a very slippery one. It’s difficult to see. Maybe because there’s nothing really to it?
Focus on the ‘I’, not on the sensation.
OK. I’m finding that surprisingly difficult. Oh, the sensation sustains the ‘I’?
Isn’t the thought of an ‘I’, an idea about a real existing self, living inside the body, feeling the sensation, thinking thoughts, moving the arms, deciding on what to do?
Yes, it absolutely is. Where does that come from?

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:49 am

Hi Andrew,
OK. I’m finding that surprisingly difficult. Oh, the sensation sustains the ‘I’?
How could a sensation sustain an ‘I’?
What can a sensation do?
And what is this ‘I’ EXACTLY that is supposedly sustained by a sensation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:24 am

Hi Vivien,

I’m very sorry for the slow reply. I’ve just spent two days traveling back home for the winter break. So have been a bit preoccupied of late with that. On the other hand I now have two weeks in which to focus.
How could a sensation sustain an ‘I’?
As something to be pointed to and labelled as a place.
What can a sensation do?
It can be for a time. It can move.
And what is this ‘I’ EXACTLY that is supposedly sustained by a sensation?
All I can find is the word “I”. It just points to sensations. I know I agreed to not focus on sensations. But I don’t find much else when I’m just looking. It’s just a thought, a label like any other label. I could use ‘banana’ instead I suppose.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:06 am

Hi Andrew,
V: How could a sensation sustain an ‘I’?
A: As something to be pointed to and labelled as a place.
But does that sensation the ACTUAL PLACE of a REAL self/I?
Or is that just a simple, everyday sensation?
V: What can a sensation do?
A: It can be for a time. It can move.
So a sensation is some kind of agency with the ability to move?
All I can find is the word “I”. It just points to sensations. I know I agreed to not focus on sensations. But I don’t find much else when I’m just looking. It’s just a thought, a label like any other label. I could use ‘banana’ instead I suppose.
And how does it FEEL to see that the self is nothing else than the word ‘I’?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:36 pm

Hi Vivien,

B
ut does that sensation the ACTUAL PLACE of a REAL self/I?
Or is that just a simple, everyday sensation?
It’s just a sensation like any other.
V: What can a sensation do?
A: It can be for a time. It can move.
So a sensation is some kind of agency with the ability to move?
Not agency, more that they are like clouds and just rise and shift in response to what’s happening.
And how does it FEEL to see that the self is nothing else than the word ‘I’?
Amusing. Some sensation in the chest area. Sometimes a “Oh! Ah.” like I’m about to get something.

Thank you.

Andrew

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Vivien
Posts: 7013
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:41 am

Hi Andrew,

How do you see the self/me now?
Are you crystal clear that it is an illusion?
Is there any doubt?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:28 pm

Hi Vivien,
How do you see the self/me now?
As ideas and mislabeled sensations.
Are you crystal clear that it is an illusion?
I understand it intellectually, and when I look I can’t find anything, and I’ve had moments of “Ah...”. But nothing has stuck.
Is there any doubt?
I can’t find any doubt, so I’m not sure what is clinging on.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Vivien
Posts: 7013
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Ready to Go

Postby Vivien » Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:37 am

Hi Andrew,

Now we are going back to investigate the notion of control. I’m going to give you the same exercise I gave you before. Please repeat the exercise at least 20 times (preferably more) before replying.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
Is there a ‘I’ controlling which and to raise?
Is there a controller? Where?

How is the decision made?
Is the decision is made by an I/self?
Is there a decision maker? Where?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
AndrewS
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ready to Go

Postby AndrewS » Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:53 am

Hi Vivien,
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Nothing I can find.
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

No.
Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
No. But thought seems to anticipate which hand will move.
Is there a ‘I’ controlling which hand to raise?
No.
Is there a controller? Where?
Not that I can find.
How is the decision made?
It just happens. There seems to be a preference for the right hand.
Is the decision is made by an I/self?
No. It just happens.
Is there a decision maker? Where?
Not that I can see.

Thank you. Merry Christmas!

Andrew


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