gonzalo (chalo) & alex (khora) on fb gate

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khora
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gonzalo (chalo) & alex (khora) on fb gate

Postby khora » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:40 pm

Gonzalo Fernandez
Ilona, many years of searching, reading, practicing meditation took me to Ramesh Balsekar in India, with him through his concept as he used to say I could see the falseness of the "self" Where am I today? well accepting everything as it goes but once in a while it seems that the ilussory "self" comes to life. It would be very important to do the process with someone in the group until there is no more doubt. I really appreciate this project and would like to be involved in it, thanks Ilona for all your help, Gonzalo (chalo)
Like · · August 24 at 6:26pm near San José, San Jose


5 people like this.


Alex Cosmescu hi. my name is alex.and, if you would like, we can do the process here.please, tell me your expectations about what it should feel like / what it should accomplish.
August 24 at 7:42pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez Alex, expectations? be very clear and help others to be clear, nothing more, I know that life will be the same as it is but without the burden of the self construct suffering will not be there, thanks for answering.
August 24 at 7:45pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu wonderful.but we can't promise a "cure" from all suffering.suffering is inescapable - but it will be seen for what it is. the same way that, if a finger is cut, pain is felt. the same way suffering will be seen as appearing and disappearing.

i'd like to agree on some basic rules, in order for the process to go on smoothly.first, show up with a reply here at least once a day (and, if something unexpected happens, we should warn the other)and - absolute honesty in replies. only tell what really happens, what is really encountered in experience - and tell it like it is.

do you agree?
August 24 at 7:49pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez totally, of course if one is not honest then nothing can happen
August 24 at 7:52pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu great.so, when you use the word "I", what do you refer to? what do you mean?
August 24 at 7:53pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez this is something like a consensual thing in society to refer to this body-mind with all his past
August 24 at 7:56pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez nothing real of course
August 24 at 7:57pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu okwhen you look in experience for an "I", do you find it? can you find any?
August 24 at 7:57pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez no
August 24 at 7:58pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez I find ideas, thoughts but nothing like an I
August 24 at 7:58pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu wonderfulso, please, describe what happens when "you" type replies here, in this thread.how this process unfolds.
August 24 at 7:59pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well, there is a comunication and words come and go depending on what is being said and understood
August 24 at 8:00pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez it is a flowing of inteligence using words
August 24 at 8:02pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu in more detail, please.

is there anyone who types?are replies - and thoughts expressed - "decided upon" before being written?what is the relation between what is thought and the typing as action?
August 24 at 8:02pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well yes, there is an organism that types and that organism with intelect included hears or reads what it has being said and answers, it takes a moment so the reaction happens as typing
August 24 at 8:07pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu okis there any "intellect" per se, separate from thoughts?
August 24 at 8:09pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and can it "decide" what will be thought next?
August 24 at 8:10pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez no thoughts are the functioning and not thoughts come by themselves
August 24 at 8:15pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu greatif so, how does the thought "I type" appear?
August 24 at 8:16pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez this thought is behind all other thoughts, when there are not thoughts there is not I thought but then thoughts start to appear and inmidatley the thought I takes ownership of the the thoughts and say I thought that
August 24 at 8:18pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes, "I" is just a thought.but can a thought "take ownership"?can it think?or it just appears, the same way as other thoughts?

when exactly does the "I thought" appear?can it be seen as just another thought?
August 24 at 8:20pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez I is a thought, it can not take ownership in reality but it feels as if it does, that can be seen
August 24 at 8:24pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu wonderfulwhat is seeing "I" as a thought?what feels this feeling of "I taking ownership"?
August 24 at 8:25pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the I thought is very fas in appearing but yes it can be seen as just a thought
August 24 at 8:26pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez sorry fast
August 24 at 8:27pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu it's ok :)so, what is seeing "I" as a thought?what feels this feeling of "I taking ownership"?
August 24 at 8:27pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez this seeing is before anything else, it is there always and also that feels the feeling of taking over
August 24 at 8:30pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez of I taking over
August 24 at 8:30pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu what is seeing thought and feeling feeling?is there anything separate that does it?
August 24 at 8:31pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez no there can not be something separate, it is here and it is the same
August 24 at 8:34pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu please clarify it a bit.
August 24 at 8:34pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez ok, thoughts appear, one of them is the I thought, that is seen and also when the thought I takes ownership of the thoughts that continually appear as mine this is also seen and feel by what? by what is laways there, it can have a name like energy or anything else but it is just a space where everything is seen and feel
August 24 at 8:37pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez thoughts may try to separate but they are only thoughts
August 24 at 8:38pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok, let's pass to action :)

please, raise your left hand.move it towards right, then left.then blink three times.do it.
August 24 at 8:39pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and tell me when done :)
August 24 at 8:40pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes I did
August 24 at 8:41pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok. so this thought, "I did", what does it mean?has it any coverage in reality?

was there any I who decided to move the hand or blink?and any I who did that?

or just the thought "I did that", arising after what happened, as a description of what happened?
August 24 at 8:43pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes just a thought describing
August 24 at 8:45pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes - a thought describing. a story about what happens.

can "I" be seen as a character in that story? because stories just can't exist without characters (although the separation of characters is arbitrary)
August 24 at 8:46pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes a character in the story, that can be seen clearly. A story has to be made by a character with a lot of information.
August 24 at 8:52pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu one little question, just to be sure:the ascription of an "I" in "I thought that" happens in the same way with the ascription of an "I" in "I did that"?
August 24 at 8:54pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes sure
August 24 at 8:55pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu when you read stories, you feel like they are real, isn't it?especially when they are good :)

and what you wrote in your first post here, "it seems that the ilussory "self" comes to life" - does it happen in the same way?the story is so engrossing, that the character seems to come to life?
August 24 at 8:56pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez exactly, it happens in the same way
August 24 at 8:57pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu wonderful, so we got that covered.in reality - no self, no separation, just the whole of what's happening. call that "reality", "life" or whatever.based on that reality - a story about a "self" which "does things" like typing or thinking or moving the body.

and sometimes the story becomes so captivating, and you believe the story *is* the reality.

are we on the same page?
August 24 at 9:00pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes
August 24 at 9:04pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu can every thought about self be regarded as just a story?

the mind tell stories to itself, to keep itself entertained - or rather the stories / thoughts come by themselves.and sometimes these stories are believed (as we believed them in childhood, or the same way we suspend disbelief when we watch a movie).

can you look at these stories as something to be enjoyed, eventually, rather than believed?
August 24 at 9:06pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez good point, yes they can be seen just as stories and not necessary believed
August 24 at 9:12pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez do you think we can continue this tomorrow?
August 24 at 9:16pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu wonderful.

so let's call it a day :)and continue tomorrow, if that's ok with you.

in the meantime, look at what's happening - and the story about what's happening, which arises - and compare them.and see if every thought can be regarded as a story - and enjoyed, left to be as it is - rather than either believed or rejected
August 24 at 9:16pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu we were typing at the same time :)
August 24 at 9:17pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu it is a pleasure working with you
August 24 at 9:18pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez same to me alex
August 24 at 9:20pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez at what time do you think it is good for you tomorrow?
August 24 at 9:20pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu what time zone are you in?i live in a GMT+2 area
August 24 at 9:21pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez right now it is 12 20 miday here what about you?
August 24 at 9:22pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu here - 9.20 in the evening
August 24 at 9:22pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez ‎9 hours difference where are you?
August 24 at 9:23pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu eastern europe
August 24 at 9:24pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu so, at what time (your time zone)?
August 24 at 9:24pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez for me it would be ok at 9 am here that would be 6 pm there
August 24 at 9:25pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok. so we will talk tomorrow :)♥
August 24 at 9:26pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes and thank you again.
August 24 at 9:33pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu you're welcome♥ ♥ ♥
August 24 at 9:33pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu so, gonzalo, do you exist?
August 25 at 5:57pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez gonzalo is a character like alex
August 25 at 6:01pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu please elaborate on that.what comes up when "you" is seen as just a character?what feelings are here?
August 25 at 6:02pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez feelings?
August 25 at 6:02pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes. how do you feel when "I" is seen as just a character?
August 25 at 6:03pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well, no feelings
August 25 at 6:03pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez kind of just seeing that and sometimes emotions can come but part of the character
August 25 at 6:04pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok. so it's just the seeing of it - as a cold fact, the same as saying "now there is a computer in front of me"?
August 25 at 6:04pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes just the seeing
August 25 at 6:05pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu please, look carefullyare emotions "part" of the character, or they just arise, and can be felt as "true", as "what's happening now", without being attributed to the character?
August 25 at 6:05pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez emotions arise and that is what is happening but sometimes they arise as part of the character acting and also that is seen
August 25 at 6:09pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu let's clarify it a bit.a sensation in the head, let's say, it's just a sensation - without the need to be called a part of the "I", of this character, isn't it?in the same way, an emotion is just an emotion - just arising, as a response to what's happening, and then subsiding

emotion - the same way as sensation or action - can't be "part of the character" - because the character is just a story, when emotion is experienced directly

is this true to your experience?
August 25 at 6:12pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes but when character is believed to be real that also brings emotions
August 25 at 6:15pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu is "belief" part of the reality? part of what's happening?
August 25 at 6:15pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez no for sure no
August 25 at 6:16pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok. let's rephrase it."belief" is a kind of thought, isn't it?and thought - regardless of its content, we are not interested in its content now - is something that's happening, isn't it?

so, "the fact of believing", if we put it this way, is something that's really happening

look to see if that's true
August 25 at 6:18pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes believing is happening and from that believing emotions also arise
August 25 at 6:20pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez everything is just happening, belief in the I thought as real, seen that I is just a thought emotions from believing or from not believing
August 25 at 6:22pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu of course - it's a proces of Life affecting itself, by means of everything - including beliefs, stories and so on, because they - as *stories* are part of reality, too

have you noticed how stories make you feel good?stories *as stories* are part of the reality, and of course they had their effect

but the character these stories are about is not part of the reality. is this seen?
August 25 at 6:23pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes, the character is just something made of past memories and experiences
August 25 at 6:25pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and these memories and experiences are real - but the character is notlike a character in a movie - batman, for example
August 25 at 6:26pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu what's real?please, make a list of what's real right now
August 25 at 6:27pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez sensations of being here on a chair, seein the screen, reading, understanding what is being said, sounds around me,
August 25 at 6:30pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and a story about an "I" who is experiencing all that :)

but is the "I" real?is it anywhere to be found?
August 25 at 6:31pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu a story is part of the reality - but what the story is about - hmmmm not necessarily :)

the "I" - as that about what the story is - is unrealis a fictionnot part of the reality, and it can be found nowhere
August 25 at 6:32pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu is that true in your experience?please, look to see if it is
August 25 at 6:33pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes a story of an I who is experiencing this but it can be experienced also without the story of I but no the I can not be found anywhere
August 25 at 6:33pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes, the moment can be experienced without a story - or with a story - it doesn't matter, this is just happening, Life unfolding

so, what's the relationship between the story and the reality?
August 25 at 6:34pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the story is happening on reality, reality is there and everything appearing on it
August 25 at 6:35pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu what is the difference between experiencing a moment *with* a story attached to it - and without it?

for example, pick an object in your surroundings and touch it, hold it, explore it with your fingers for 30 seconds. just focused on the sensations.and after that, try to describe - in the mind or in writing - these sensations, for another 30 seconds.

is there a difference between the two ways of experincing?
August 25 at 6:39pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez totally without a story is new, with a story, a concept of it is like living from memory
August 25 at 6:41pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yesand a story always abstracts some moments and neglects others, isn't it?
August 25 at 6:44pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu you can play with that for a while - comparing experiences *with* a story attached with experiences *without* it - for the whole day if you like :)
August 25 at 6:45pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes, more emphasis on the ones that are more attractive
August 25 at 6:45pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu so, believing the story is optional
August 25 at 6:46pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu the stories arise from some experience - but no one can guarantee that they reflect the experience
August 25 at 6:47pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and they just arise, that's the way the brain works
August 25 at 6:47pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu if you like, we can stop here and you can continue experimenting with *not believing* stories, but just letting them arise as they arisebut at the same time be attentive if the "I" these stories are about is to be found anywhereand how the I thought appears, in these stories
August 25 at 6:49pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the stories just arise, ok and some times they are very entertaining and some times they are sacry, depends but just stories and when something happens it can be lived with a story attached to it or without a story
August 25 at 6:49pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes
August 25 at 6:50pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu do you need time to let that sink in?
August 25 at 6:50pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes, we can continue tomorrow if you like
August 25 at 6:51pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu there is no problem - we can continue now, but if you need time to see the full effect of that (i don't know if you need) we can go on tomorrow, there's no rush
August 25 at 6:52pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well this is is part of the daily exploring, here is more focus and I like that but we can continue
August 25 at 6:54pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes, but at the same time the real-time conversation sometimes makes us give the "learned" answers, and not the ones that are felt as true in direct experience
August 25 at 6:56pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the seeing of the story in the moment it is coming alive is also very interesting
August 25 at 6:56pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu indeedstories are created every moment in our "ordinary" lifebut when they are seen as just stories, this is fascinating
August 25 at 6:57pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu so, you say an "I" is nowhere to be found.and stories are seen for what they really are.what's missing right now?
August 25 at 6:58pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes, the I another story, right now a cup of coffe
August 25 at 7:01pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ‎:)
August 25 at 7:01pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu okso - see you tomorrow at the same time, continue right now - or later today?
August 25 at 7:02pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez better tomorrow I have abirthday party today
August 25 at 7:03pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ‎(and to be precise - the "I" is not the story, the story is waaaaay larger, and it's a part of the reality - but the I is not)
August 25 at 7:03pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu oktomorrow at the same time?
August 25 at 7:04pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and remember our experiment - just continue, for the day, to look at stories arising, without believing them, without rejecting them, but seeing if they correspond to something real or not
August 25 at 7:05pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez ok, so the I is not a story of me?
August 25 at 7:06pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu the thinking about I arises as part of a storybut look at stories and see for yourself
August 25 at 7:08pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez ok
August 25 at 7:08pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez tomorrow same time?
August 25 at 7:09pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu the "I" is not a story, it just doesn't existlook to see if that's trueand it's not a "story of "me" either
August 25 at 7:09pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes, the same time, if that's ok for you♥
August 25 at 7:09pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes and thank you, very intersting point, the I is just a thought
August 25 at 7:10pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu i'm glad this is seen :)
August 25 at 7:11pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez stories come and then the I thought appropiate them as their own
August 25 at 7:11pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu mmmmmlet's be precise again :)can a thought think?
August 25 at 7:11pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu can a thought "appropriate" something?
August 25 at 7:11pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu or is this just another story - a story about thoughts, this time?
August 25 at 7:12pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez another story a ghost can no do anything
August 25 at 7:14pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yeswonderful :)
August 25 at 7:14pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the biggest story an that is just a thought trying to do something, very crazy indeed
August 25 at 7:15pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu it's like a joke, when you see it :)this is the reason some call it "the cosmic joke"
August 25 at 7:16pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu so - see you tomorrow, dear gonzaloand - continue to look at stories and see them for what they areand we'll talk some more about it tomorrow
August 25 at 7:17pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ♥
August 25 at 7:17pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes it is very present here now
August 25 at 7:17pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez ok till tomorrow
August 25 at 7:18pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu uh, there are a few things that came on my mind right after we finished our conversation here - and which may be helpful.

first, try to keep the same focus we have here also in your daily life - keep questioning, when a belief appears, and be attentive to distinguish what's real from what's not - how stories arise, how we are carried by them, how actions happen without an "I" to be responsible for them.and second, i noticed that when something is truly seen - when a belief is seen as false, for example - there is a definite shift going on in the body. this can be used to distinguish between merely "agreeing" with a statement - and really feeling if it's true or not.

hope that helps.be well, dear gonzalo.till tomorrow.
August 25 at 8:03pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu how is it going, dear gonzalo?
August 26 at 5:59pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez Hi Alex, last night at a party very much in to it not very conscious but today kind of feeling what it was and reralizing that it is so boring to be there playing a role of someone who is interested but no really interested so I think I will never go again to a party
August 26 at 6:02pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ‎:)is there anyone who is playing a role?any role?
August 26 at 6:04pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez there was an effort for sure being made to be there smiling and kind of interested in others stories but after a while it was clear it was not interesting it was more of the same
August 26 at 6:07pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes, there was effortthere wasn't interest (or rather, there was interest in something else)there was probably desire to have a nice effect on people

but was there anyone who was playing any role?or is it just part of the story which is playing continuosly in your head, a story of a "me" which passes through life?
August 26 at 6:09pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes a story of me which passes through life in this case trying to seem happy at the party
August 26 at 6:12pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez continuosly? all the time? is it?
August 26 at 6:13pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu accompanying the whole of life, isn't it?of course there are moments when the mind is silent - or seems so, i don't really know, maybe it's bubbling with activity under the surface of consciousness :)but even if it is silent for some time, after that the story begins again - but that's the way things work

and do you see that this story - "uh, i've got a role to play, but it's so boring" - accentuates the disconfort that is felt?
August 26 at 6:18pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez I was thinking for a moment that it is so nice to be alone and suddenly I realized is the same: part of the story felling well being alone
August 26 at 6:18pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu of course :)

so, is there a "me" outside the story?a "me" which really feels what the story tells about?
August 26 at 6:21pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez there is a story, that storyof me is going on and there seems to be the seeing of that story of me telling the story so who is feeling the story as bad or godd? rhat is the question right?
August 26 at 6:24pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu i was asking if there is a "me" who feels the feelings that the story attributes to himbut you may answer your variant too - the way you interpreted the question is also useful here
August 26 at 6:27pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez I see, the story continues, now as ame saying it was bad or anything
August 26 at 6:27pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes, the story continues - and will continue, it's the way the brain works

butdo you see clearly that the "I" which the story talks about has nothing which corresponds to it in reality?
August 26 at 6:30pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu find that "I". in your felt experience, right now, is there anything you would call "I"?
August 26 at 6:31pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu can it be found at all?try it
August 26 at 6:32pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the I which the story talks about is full of images, memories, experiences so those are the clothes of it but yes it is a story, if there is not thought there is no I
August 26 at 6:34pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu but even if there is thought - is there any I in reality?
August 26 at 6:34pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez in silence it is just the feeling of being alive
August 26 at 6:34pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez at any moment it can be interrupted the silence by a thought and the continuation of the story
August 26 at 6:35pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes, the feeling of being alive is there - but is it "I"? is it "mine"?
August 26 at 6:36pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu just feel it for a momentyes, it is therebut does it have attached the label "my"?or "I"?
August 26 at 6:39pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez no, mine comes after
August 26 at 6:42pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and comes only as part of a story, isn't it?
August 26 at 6:43pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu let's look closer at this "my", "mine".what makes the clothes you are wearing, for example, "yours"?are they "your clothes" or just "clothes"?
August 26 at 6:44pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez they are clothes only but mine comes because of seeing there at what is the room that feels like my room but it is only a room for sure and if you continue like this with everything then there are things but no one attached to them
August 26 at 6:47pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu okso this story, is it "your" story?
August 26 at 6:48pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez it is a story in this particular brain and the brain is in this particular body and then it feels as if there is someone here in this organism but really is just part of the story that goes on and on on this organism
August 26 at 6:50pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yesand if the story is not "yours", can "you" control it?
August 26 at 6:52pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez whenever there is a stop for example in the middle of the story of me being played a question like where is this I there can to be found
August 26 at 6:53pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes, it may stop, due to different factors - questions, attention to sensations, drugs and so on - but can "you" control it?
August 26 at 6:54pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez if the story is not mine the can not be any control of it but with the example of the party yesterday there is a wish it could be stoped
August 26 at 6:55pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes, there is the wish, of courseand then there arises the thought, "oh, how i wish for this to stop, i'd rather be somewhere else" and so on :)

but - do you see that "spiritual" thoughts are also part of this story?like "i would like to achieve a particular state, where stories can just stop, and i could live life like it really is"?
August 26 at 6:57pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes
August 26 at 7:00pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and how does it feel to see that?
August 26 at 7:01pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez it feels that there is no way out of the stories
August 26 at 7:01pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu is this a feeling, or a thought, a part of the story?
August 26 at 7:02pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez if I go from here it will be for a moment some problems here on the computer
August 26 at 7:02pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez both, well a feeling after the thought, yes part of the story
August 26 at 7:03pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok, i'll wait :)
August 26 at 7:04pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok - so story just arises, it's not under anyone's control, just life unfoldingand there is no "I" this story is about

can this just be recognized?can you keep the focus on that, during your daily life?on stories arising, and on the absence of the "I" this stories are about?
August 26 at 7:05pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez now we can continue nothing happening right now
August 26 at 7:06pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu have you seen my last message?

ok - so story just arises, it's not under anyone's control, just life unfoldingand there is no "I" this story is about

can this just be recognized?can you keep the focus on that, during your daily life?on stories arising, and on the absence of the "I" this stories are about?
August 26 at 7:07pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez stories about an I that really do not exist, who can be focus during daily life?
August 26 at 7:07pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ‎:)is there anything which is focusing right now, during our conversation?
August 26 at 7:09pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well there some atention to this conversation, no?
August 26 at 7:10pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez and behind that the story of I focussing
August 26 at 7:10pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu of courseand can the same attention be given to the absence of self?to the fact that the self can be found nowhere?

that thoughts are arisingfeelings are arisingdesires are arisingstories are arising

but there is no self, anywhere, in all these?
August 26 at 7:11pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu we're not trying to replace the words here, just to see clearly
August 26 at 7:12pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes, I understand, what makes attention goes there to the absence of self?
August 26 at 7:15pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu you tell me :)is the absence of self seen?what makes the attention go there?
August 26 at 7:16pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu just look
August 26 at 7:19pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the absence of self is seen and the atention was there in the absence of the self, there is no story at that moment and then a little while after the story continues, is that seeing of the no self also part of the story?
August 26 at 7:20pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez in the seeing of the story as just a story also it is een the no self
August 26 at 7:20pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez seen
August 26 at 7:21pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu of course there arises a story, like "yes, i've seen no self, it's so good i've seen it" - but the story is story, and seeing is seeing.does seeing happen?only you can tell if it does
August 26 at 7:21pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes seeing happens
August 26 at 7:23pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes - they can happen at the same time (i didn't see your last message)
August 26 at 7:23pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu so, do you feel anything is missing from this insight?
August 26 at 7:24pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu any expectations or doubts?
August 26 at 7:27pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez right now things are clear, there is a story goping on there is no I that the story can be ascribe to and the seeing of this is seeing the no self
August 26 at 7:27pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yesthere is no I that "tells" this storyand there is no I that this story is aboutboth are true

and how does it feel to see that?the need to "go out" of the story is still there?
August 26 at 7:29pm · Like · 1


Alex Cosmescu or the need to stop the story?
August 26 at 7:29pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez just as part of the story something like "no big deal" life goes on and then is the continuation of the story kind of boring
August 26 at 7:32pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ‎:)is this seeing / feeling any different from what was before our conversation?
August 26 at 7:33pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well at the beginning of the conversation there was something like I wish I did not go to that party and be there pretending so much but now I see it was good because there was some material for this investigation we are doing together and then now it is more clear that the story can continue and feelings will arise and thoughts like I dont want to go to other party again will come too but at the end only stories being made and whatever will happen no matter what I dont know
August 26 at 7:37pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez or who knows?
August 26 at 7:38pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ‎:)wonderful
August 26 at 7:38pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez no contro, because who can control? no one here to control, only a thought of an I that could do something
August 26 at 7:41pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu so - let's stop now, until tomorrow, and let that sink inand keep attention to stories arising, and see them as stories, about no one in particular, just stories arisingand keep this clear focus on the absence of self



tomorrow, at what time are you available?
August 26 at 7:41pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez tell me
August 26 at 7:41pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes, your last message is spot on
August 26 at 7:41pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez what is best for you
August 26 at 7:41pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu of course, you can write to me any time - i'll read and respond
August 26 at 7:42pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes, bur are we doing this tomorrow?
August 26 at 7:43pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu best for me is the same as yesterday and today - if that's not too early for you
August 26 at 7:43pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez no it is good it is 9 am here when we start
August 26 at 7:43pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu wonderfulso, until tomorrow then - but feel free to write here any timei'll read it, when i will be online♥
August 26 at 7:45pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez ok, perfect and thanks, till tomorrow then have a nive evening
August 26 at 7:46pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu have a nice day, dear gonzalotill tomorrow
August 26 at 7:46pm · Like

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khora
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 1:32 pm

Re: gonzalo (chalo) & alex (khora) on fb gate

Postby khora » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:40 pm

Alex Cosmescu hi, dear gonzalo.how's it unfolding?anything new?
August 27 at 6:00pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez alex, hello, could you please give me 5 minutes?
August 27 at 6:01pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu of course
August 27 at 6:02pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez Sorry Alex, an interruption happened
August 27 at 6:17pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez maybe we need to clarify on thought, story of me and the continous chating of the mind
August 27 at 6:18pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu if you likeso, let's start.what is there, beside the story, in direct experience?in seeing, hearing, feeling?
August 27 at 6:19pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez when you talk of the story you mean everything is there on the mind?
August 27 at 6:22pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu thoughts about things, which follow one another - like a train.
August 27 at 6:23pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes I understand so what is there beside the story? feelings, sensations
August 27 at 6:26pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and is the "I" found in these feelings and sensations, or only in thoughts - only as the (illusory) content of some thoughts?is any "I" found in direct experience?take sensations, one by one. is any I found there?take the body - part by part, or as one whole. is any I found there?take thoughts. do these thoughts arise *for* an I? does an I generate them? does an I control them? or rather they just construct the image of an I, which is present only *in* thoughts?
August 27 at 6:29pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu do it. look into your experience. not just intellectually, not as if we were examining a theory herelook at what is, as at a fact
August 27 at 6:30pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu as that which presents itself to attention, not to intellect
August 27 at 6:31pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu because intellect is thought
August 27 at 6:31pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and we are going beyond that, into what is there, independent of any thoughts
August 27 at 6:32pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez it is clear that thought comes always after the direct experience of anything to inform me of what is happenign, just stories, without the thoughts there is no story and the I is a thought that try to run the show
August 27 at 6:34pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu can a thought *try* to do anything?
August 27 at 6:35pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez a thought can not do anything, the I thought feels as if it is there as an entity but upon investigation i seen just as another thought and the I story is this thought with memories, experiences and the rest attached to it
August 27 at 6:39pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu can a thought "feel" as if there is an entity, or there is just the feeling of an entity?the "I" is a thought - or we would be more justified in saying "there is the thought about an I, but no I is there"?
August 27 at 6:40pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez there is the feeling of an entity and yes there is a thought with feeling of an I but no there is no I
August 27 at 6:42pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu look, this is sooo easyand it is because this is so easy that this is not recognized

do you exist?
August 27 at 6:43pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes
August 27 at 6:44pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu what is this "you" that exists?
August 27 at 6:45pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu is it really there?
August 27 at 6:45pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well this is just the sensation of existing
August 27 at 6:46pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez after a thought my arrive and say I exist
August 27 at 6:47pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes, there is the sensation of existing, the sense of being alive, but *it is*, it is not you, you are not it.the sense of being alive just is.the body just is.feelings just are.and there is no I attached to any of them.and after that, the thought "I am that" comes.is it true?are you that?or that just is, as it is, without any I needed?
August 27 at 6:48pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez from direct expeiencin here now the sense of existing is here and then a thought I comes and says I exist and but if that thought does not come there is just existing
August 27 at 6:51pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu wonderful, dear gonzaloso, let that settle.do you have a park, or a place where you can be in nature, near the place where you live?
August 27 at 6:52pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and - be attentive - there is just existing even if that thought come.check that.
August 27 at 6:53pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes I was just cheking that out here and it is clear that meditation has to be only that where the quietness is here and the thought I is absent
August 27 at 6:55pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the I thought may come at any moment or other thoughts may arrive or a trend of thoughts telling me a story about anything
August 27 at 6:58pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu we are not talking about meditation here - it may be helpful or not, it doesn't matter.seeing what's true and meditation are not the same thing, usually.seeing is not about a certain state.

if you have a nice place in nature - go there today.and sit there for a time.and look.look at how everything is, just is, just happens.without any "I" needed.the tree has no I, the cat has no I, the waves have no I, gonzalo has no I :)there is no I, nowhere in existence.just look at how things just happen, just unfold, and there is no I needed, and there was never any I.
August 27 at 6:58pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez generally a thought or thoughts come and then the I thought is attached on those and the story is then the story of me
August 27 at 6:59pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes, but there is no me, no I, anywhere to be foundso this story is a lie
August 27 at 6:59pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes because the story made of thoghts does not belong to any one is just a story made of thoughts
August 27 at 7:01pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes
August 27 at 7:01pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu or you may just go out in the street, and look at people, at carsdo people "have" an I?or everything just happens?the body acts, thoughts appears, everything is happening, and there is no I, and it never was?
August 27 at 7:02pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez all this happens very fast all the time and the sensation is there that this I thought is real
August 27 at 7:02pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes, it is very fast, and it seems convincingbut when you really look, you see for yourself
August 27 at 7:03pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu just do it.just go out, and do this little experiment.and we'll talk tomorrow.ok?
August 27 at 7:03pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes if it slowed down it would be easier to see
August 27 at 7:04pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes very well thanks for all
August 27 at 7:04pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ♥
August 27 at 7:04pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu it's not that difficult, at alleverything is as it iswe just never look. and one single look can change it all.
August 27 at 7:05pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu tomorrow at the same time?
August 27 at 7:05pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes, same time, have a good evening
August 27 at 7:06pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu you too, have a nice day, and good luck with this experimentjust do it, ok? :)

sending love
August 27 at 7:06pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez oh yes I will I am doing it but will do it in a nice place a quiet place
August 27 at 7:07pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu uh, and if anything happens, you feel you need to tell me something, just write here, i'll read it when I'll be online
August 27 at 7:07pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez ok
August 27 at 7:07pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu it not meditation, remember?just plain looking at what is.it may be done in the greatest noise, or in the quietest place - it doesn't matter.it's not about entering a special state, but just seeing what is, and always was.
August 27 at 7:08pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes
August 27 at 7:09pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu wonderful.♥see you tomorrow, dear gonzalo.
August 27 at 7:09pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez see you my friend
August 27 at 7:10pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu hi, dear gonzalo.are you here?how was that experiment?
Tuesday at 6:07pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez I am here, the experiment, well, I had a busy day so no time to sit ona park
Tuesday at 6:08pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok.how is your day tody, still busy?
Tuesday at 6:09pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez but right here at the moment you wrote there is silence so we can go on
Tuesday at 6:09pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez not so much
Tuesday at 6:10pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu will you have the time to do it today?
Tuesday at 6:10pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes
Tuesday at 6:10pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the moments I did the experiment
Tuesday at 6:10pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu greatand please, write here what was seen after you will do it
Tuesday at 6:10pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez there was silence and then thoughts arising from there some of them entartaining so I follow them not only that but continue the thoughts so in that moment is that thinking?
Tuesday at 6:11pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez there seems to be a difference in between thoughts arising and thinking
Tuesday at 6:12pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and what is the difference?
Tuesday at 6:12pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu look, and tell me. is there a difference between "thinking" and "thoughts arising"?
Tuesday at 6:13pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well that is not only thoughts but the thoughts have a purpose a direction and so who has this interest in the thinking?
Tuesday at 6:13pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu is anyone found, in experience, who "does" the thinking?who "has" this interest, purpose and direction?
Tuesday at 6:14pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez for example a group here is organizing an event and I am part of the organization so when I was alone a thought came from something that happened so there was a continuation of the thought with eleaboration and desicion being made
Tuesday at 6:15pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes that is my question
Tuesday at 6:16pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the only answer is that it is a sensation of someone doing the thinking
Tuesday at 6:17pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu so, try to find out.look for yourself.is there anyone who "does" the thinking, "continues" thoughts, "makes" decisions?can this "someone" be found in direct experience?

or there is only the feeling of aliveness, and a story about someone doing the thinking, someone continuing thoughts, someone making decision?

can this someone be found, anywhere?
Tuesday at 6:19pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez no, no one home, no story, just a sensation a feeling that there is someone home
Tuesday at 6:20pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu keep looking, with intense focusalso in the time when we are not talking hereexamine EVERY aspect of experienceand then no doubt will arise, or, if it will arise, it will be seen immediately as just a story
Tuesday at 6:22pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu is there any difference between "thoughts arising" and "thinking"?just look, the answer is found in experience.
Tuesday at 6:24pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez for example an experience in daily life can trigger a thought sequence and that response comes from the feeling, sensation of someone here that have to do something and then out of that thought process something gets acomplished
Tuesday at 6:25pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yesa good descriptionbut there is no one who accomplishes it, and no one who is thinking about doing it
Tuesday at 6:26pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well yes, no body doing it but if the sensation or feeling is there then no response to it and then no desicion being made and no action tasking place
Tuesday at 6:28pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez not there
Tuesday at 6:28pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu i feel that maybe the way our conversation is structured is distracting you from lookingit feels that we are just dissecting thoughts and views

i have a proposal :)

just look, plain and simple, at your experience.and sort it out.and see if there is someone there, behind every thought, every action - or actually there is just thought happening, action happening.examine everything, and question everything.

and then, in the evening, write to me what was seen.and i'll answer, and, if needed, give some more pointers.

is it ok?
Tuesday at 6:30pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes it is ok
Tuesday at 6:31pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok.let's see what this change brings.just keep looking, ok?and keep your attention on the absence of any self, in any form

a good pointer may be bahiya sutta:

"When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
Tuesday at 6:35pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez ok, good
Tuesday at 6:37pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok, then.waiting for what you'll write.♥have a nice day
Tuesday at 6:39pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez you too, thanks
Tuesday at 6:41pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu hi, dear gonzalohave you carried out that experiment?
Wednesday at 6:09pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes, the whole day yesterday, not matter where I was
Wednesday at 6:12pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and how was it?any insight?any doubts?
Wednesday at 6:13pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well, a lot of thoughts like always, but not me anywhere found, just stories and the I thought always there
Wednesday at 6:15pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and how did it feel to look at that?
Wednesday at 6:15pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez detached
Wednesday at 6:16pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu mmmm let's seedetached from what?and what felt detached?
Wednesday at 6:17pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez good question, it was an exercise, right? so it felt like that an exercise being done and when I looked at who was doing the exercise the thought I came in to scene
Wednesday at 6:21pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yesbut it is just a thoughtis there anything beyond that thought?anything real, to which it can refer?

and, please expand on feeling detached.detached is a kind of separated, isn't it?so, is there a separated seer?
Wednesday at 6:23pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well just like watching a movie, is the movie real? no we know it is not real but we enjoy it.
Wednesday at 6:25pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok, it's a good analogy.but if life is a movie, are you the watcher or a part of the movie?and when there is this identification as a "watcher" or a "witness" - is there any real thing which "watches" or "witnesses"?
Wednesday at 6:27pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez we watch and at the same time we are actors in this movie, who watches could be the story of me but that is not real once seeing so who watches? I do not know
Wednesday at 6:32pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu could you please look into that?is there anything that watches?are we really both "actors" and "watchers"?are you an "actor" and a "watcher" at the same time? are you any of them, really?

just let the day unfold as it does, and keep looking at that.can a separate "watcher" be found?

and then tell me :)♥
Wednesday at 6:35pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez ok I will do that
Wednesday at 6:35pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu wonderful.keep looking, and write to me when anything interesting is found.
Wednesday at 6:36pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez ok
Wednesday at 6:36pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez names are used to describe, there is watching of all around as it happens in that this organism is also watched as part of the show, for sure there is no watcher as an entity and not actor as an entity only what is seeing or witnessed
Wednesday at 6:39pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu in what does "seeing" or "witnessing" consist?keep looking at this seeing, living your day as usual.

and - keep posting here every day, regardless if i am here at the time of your posting.i will review what you post anyway, and give feed-back and new questions, if they are needed?
Wednesday at 6:42pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez ok, I will do that just atentive at the witnessing.
Wednesday at 6:46pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu yes
Wednesday at 6:46pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu good luck with that♥
Wednesday at 6:46pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez thanks alex
Wednesday at 6:46pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu you are welcome.waiting for your reply :)when seeing is clear, write hereno rush
Wednesday at 6:47pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes
Wednesday at 6:48pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu hi, dear gonzalo.how is it going?
Yesterday at 6:07pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez seeing and witnessing happens and in that everything else does, happens
Yesterday at 6:09pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu what is seen in seeing?is seeing itself seen?or just objects, just what's happening, appearing as it appears?
Yesterday at 6:10pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu is this "seeing and witnessing happens and in that everything else does, happens" itself seen - or just supposed by the mind?
Yesterday at 6:15pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well in seeing everything is seeing and also there is the awareness of seeing
Yesterday at 6:15pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu is this the "awareness of seeing" or just "the awareness of the presence of the object"?look carefully in your experience
Yesterday at 6:16pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez it is the awareness of seeing
Yesterday at 6:18pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu in what does this awareness consist?is "seeing" an object which can be seen?if so, how it can be seen?
Yesterday at 6:19pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu look at the computer, for example. look with your eyes. is there any "awareness" of seeing, or just the presence of the seen, the presence of the computer?
Yesterday at 6:21pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez it is the computer being seeing and also the awareness of the seeing
Yesterday at 6:22pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu is this really "awareness" of the seeing or just a story?if you wish, you may answer later.be very attentive, and close to your experience.
Yesterday at 6:24pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and - please describe it in detailit's very easy just to put a label on it and go on
Yesterday at 6:26pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well right now as I am writing these letters there is the awareness of this process happening here and all the sensations and everything that is happening around is being notice and at the same time the seeing is being awared
Yesterday at 6:30pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu in which way?how is awareness of the seeing happening?
Yesterday at 6:34pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez it is just there the awareness of being aware
Yesterday at 6:39pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu you just give me words, definitions, concepts.

how is this awareness of being aware perceived?how does it appear?is it there always?is there a difference between it and the seeing of objects? if yes, what is the difference?
Yesterday at 6:43pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez awareness is there with thoughts or without thoughts, with sensations or the rest happening there is awareness, the seeing of objects is there but always the awareness of being aware is there
Yesterday at 6:51pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu is there anything which sees this awareness?how can you be sure it is always there?

may it be just another story, which perpetuates the illusion of a separate "seer"?in what does "seeing" consist, other than the presence of objects?
Yesterday at 6:56pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu in what does "hearing" consist, other than the presence of sounds?in what does "feeling" consist, other than the presence of sensations?
Yesterday at 6:57pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez just that, nothing else
Yesterday at 7:01pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu so there is no "hearing of hearing"no "seeing of seeing"no "feeling of feeling".

and no "awareness of awareness".or is there?can it be just a story?
Yesterday at 7:02pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez just hearing, seeing, feeling and being aware
Yesterday at 7:04pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu is there any "I" who is "being aware"?or being aware consists just in the presence of the objects of awareness?just look, in your experience
Yesterday at 7:05pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez no I and without the presence ob objects there is still awareness
Yesterday at 7:09pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu awareness of what?
Yesterday at 7:11pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu please, describe this awareness that you say is there without the presence of objects.
Yesterday at 7:16pm · Edited · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez with my eyes close there is awareness, there is silence with ocasional thoughts and even if there is sounds always the awareness is there
Yesterday at 7:18pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu awareness of what?may it be just the awareness of the feeling of being alive, we talked about earlier?
Yesterday at 7:19pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes of just being
Yesterday at 7:22pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok. so did we demolish the story about "awareness of awareness"?is that seen clearly?can it exist?please, tell me, to be sure you have seen it
Yesterday at 7:24pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez what story?
Yesterday at 7:25pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ‎"awareness of awareness".can it exist?
Yesterday at 7:25pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez there is awareness that is all
Yesterday at 7:26pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez everything else is just thoughts
Yesterday at 7:27pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and in what does this awareness consist?
Yesterday at 7:27pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez it consists ofbeing present at whatever happens without an I image
Yesterday at 7:28pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu and what is being present?
Yesterday at 7:29pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez it means that without a someone there there is only presence
Yesterday at 7:30pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu presence of what?
Yesterday at 7:30pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez everything
Yesterday at 7:30pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez nothing excluded
Yesterday at 7:30pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu so awareness means just presence of everything, just as it is.did i understand you correctly?
Yesterday at 7:32pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez awareness means everything just as it is
Yesterday at 7:33pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok. and what does presence mean?
Yesterday at 7:34pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu in your experience, not in what you learned
Yesterday at 7:35pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez presence is another word to say that wareness is
Yesterday at 7:35pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok. wonderful.has there been any shift experienced lately?is your experience different in any way than before requesting a guide here?
Yesterday at 7:36pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes and it happened yesterday suddenly when I was reading a story from the Rhibu gita it was a question at the end of the story where the master asked for the meaning od I and YOU and the disciple could undertand in that moment and I understood why he had understood too
Yesterday at 7:40pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez it has being a focus with your aid in the essential
Yesterday at 7:42pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ‎(i'd like to ask you something. for the time we are working together, abstain from reading any "spiritual" literature - it just brings more clutter into the mind)

and what was this shift?what was felt?what was understood?
Yesterday at 7:42pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez that I is a word and You is another word to point to something that do not exist and yes could use them but now with the understandint that it is just formal no real and not only that but that the separation these words seem to imply is not reak neither
Yesterday at 7:46pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez rea
Yesterday at 7:47pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez real
Yesterday at 7:47pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu wonderful.so, i'd like to ask you to do another exercise / experiment today.look at other people.try to be attentive to what they are doing.and try to find out - experientially - if they "have" a self - or just act, automatically, without control (the same way "you" act automatically and without control - be attentive to that, too).and try to find out - experientially, again - if there is any separation between "you" and "them".and after that - in the evening, or tomorrow in the morning - write to me here.ok?but do it. if any insight happened, this will just stabilize it.
Yesterday at 7:50pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez ok, I will, thank you
Yesterday at 7:56pm · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok.talk to you later.♥
Yesterday at 7:58pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes
Yesterday at 8:00pm · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez Alex, are you there?
5 hours ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu i am nowwhat's going on?how was the experiment?
4 hours ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu please, do write here even when i'm not available.i'll read it later in any case.
3 hours ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez no one found here as I and there as you,it is clear that there are fixed ways of acting that happen in a particular body and reactions on another body but everything just happening according to what each organism has as information to act from
55 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu greatplease elaborate, continue thatcan there be any "I"?was there ever?
54 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez I as a thought yes, a story of me, but in reality just that and the habit of repetion of that over time and also from that believing in the existen of the other as you
52 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu ‎"just that" - what is "that"?
51 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the story of me
50 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu i like how the words are flowing nowplease continue, what else do you feel / see now?
49 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well that personal relationships are just an exchange between two organisms everyone with a story and that conflicts arise when that story is contradicted but in reality there is no one to feel attacked there is no a personal relationship
46 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu you are right therekeep it goinggive me a rant, like you were talking to me and trying to explain it :)
44 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez to explain about relationships?
42 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu explain what you saw
41 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu just like you were talking about it
40 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez what I see now is that here there is thoghts coming and when someone is met then the exchange is of information or about affirming something like an idea one has about something and then the other can agree or disagree but above all there is the knowing of what is happening and then it is ok
38 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu what is this "knowing of what is happening"?
37 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez it is the awareness, the presence witnessing, the just being
35 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez just words for ?
35 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok - is it "you"? or it is "just there"
34 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez oh no , nothing to do with me
33 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu wonderfulis the seeing clear now?can you tell me the exact moment when it become clearer?
33 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the seeing is there always but sometimes there is just the seeing and it is I do not know if more clear but kind of relaxed like just being in itself relax
31 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu when you look back at our conversation, was there a definite moment, one reply or question, which made you look, provoked a shift?
29 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well all the time there was the pointing that made me look with more intensity and that brought clarity on what was being focussed
28 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez and then from doing that the story I told you about this man asking the other for the I and the You in that moment was if not a shift a recognition
26 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu okdo you feel that "it" has been seen?do you feel anything missing from this insight?
24 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez what I feel is that there is nothing to do about anything more than just being aware, what could be missing? mor awareness?
21 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu wonderfulwe have a standard procedure here.do you feel ready for some final questions?if yes, i will ask them, and after that i and other guides will review the answers, and, if they have more questions, they will ask you.ok?
19 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez yes sure
18 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu ok. these are the questions. please, respond in detail. and take your time, there is no rush:

(1) Is there a "me," at all, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form? Was there ever?(2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts, and how it works.(3) How does it feel to see this?(4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion?(5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

when the answers will be ready, i will show our thread to the other guides, too.
16 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the illusion of a separate self feels as there is someone in this organism who is in contro of the situation and thinking about them before during and after them. I t starts as an thought I and then proceeds from that in automatica appropiating all thoughts and actions as mine
9 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the seeing of this feels as a relaxation from the burden of being some entity who is afraid or responsible of what is happening, more at peace
7 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez well as you have done step by step I guess, where to start depends on the situation and what the other so to called person understand or does not understand
6 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez but in general I would describe as leaving behind a heay burden
5 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez sorry heavy
4 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez I can not precise a moment a bit it is just the flowing of questions and answers that have been happening here in this exchange and little insights but all of them in succesion and no one so big that I could say "this one" maybe the one I have just described you was the biggest
2 minutes ago · Like


Alex Cosmescu ‎(please, post an answer to the first question too - i saw you posted it, but after that it just disappeared. it is better for it to be there, although i know what it will be)
2 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez the one of the man asking for the meaning od I and You

Alex Cosmescu greati have no other questionsexcept - please, post again an answer to the first question (although it may be redundant):(1) Is there a "me," at all, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form? Was there ever?
2 minutes ago · Like

Gonzalo Fernandez no, the is no a me now and it was never in any form or shape

Gonzalo Fernandez there is not
a few seconds ago · Like


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