Ready to Go

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

Awareness busting... did not expect that.

We will bust it even more :)

OK, so the sense of awareness is centered around my head. It's a kind of diffuse sensation that seems to surround the head/brain. Maybe the eyes have a large role to play in the location. The last few times I've tried to feel the edges of the awareness, a tingling sensation has spread throughout the whole body. So I guess it's not as unchanging/centered as I thought.
Please pay attention to this sensation that thought labels as ‘awareness’.

Just keep the focus on this sensation and just FEEL it.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it’s ‘awareness’?

Is this sensation aware?

Stay with these questions while you FEEL the sensation. Look at it again and again, many times before replying.
Please reply with certainty. I mean whatever your reply is, make sure that you are certain about it.

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

Please reply with certainty. I mean whatever your reply is, make sure that you are certain about it.

At it! But not certain yet. Bit busy these two days. Will reply when I'm certain.

~Andrew

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

Please pay attention to this sensation that thought labels as ‘awareness’.
Just keep the focus on this sensation and just FEEL it.

OK.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it’s ‘awareness’?

The sensation immediately resolves itself as a sensation which turns out to be more tension within the head region—more spread out than before. There is also more chest and stomach correspondence with these sensations. So not awareness or suggestive of.

Is this sensation aware?

No, it’s not aware. Just a tension. But at each observation. I become aware that the “awareness”, or rather “illusion of awareness” I suspect, has shifted “back” so to speak. So it’s now observing the sensation. It’s like a retreat, Hopefully into a corner and not down a bottomless rabbit hole.

I’ll keep coming back to this.

Thank you!

~Andrew

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

No, it’s not aware. Just a tension. But at each observation. I become aware that the “awareness”, or rather “illusion of awareness” I suspect, has shifted “back” so to speak. So it’s now observing the sensation. It’s like a retreat, Hopefully into a corner and not down a bottomless rabbit hole.

All right. Then follow this SEEMING appearance of ‘awareness’, chase it from one sensation to another, then another, then another….

Is there an ACTUAL awareness at ANY time, or you just find sensation after sensation after sensation?

Stay with this for a whole day, and look as often as you can remember. You can even set a timer to every 10-30 minutes to remind yourself to look.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

Is there an ACTUAL awareness at ANY time, or you just find sensation after sensation after sensation?

I can't say with any certainty that there is any actual awareness. I thought there was at one point because the sensation changed from tension to a a kind of rippling flow. But I realized that is just a different kind of sensation.

Stay with this for a whole day, and look as often as you can remember. You can even set a timer to every 10-30 minutes to remind yourself to look.

I set a timer for 10 minutes and looked when I was able. This made for a terrible night's sleep. ;) (Just joking)

Let me know what you find.

The quality of the sensations is changing. There seems to be less "tension" or rather a more subtle kind of tension. But it's also becoming harder to find (so to speak), and it seems to be moving more into the chest region, where it feels like a hot bruise.

I'll keep looking or feeling for awareness.

Thank you.

~Andrew

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

I can't say with any certainty that there is any actual awareness. I thought there was at one point because the sensation changed from tension to a a kind of rippling flow. But I realized that is just a different kind of sensation.

So there is a change in the sensation. So what?
Just because the sensation changes, does it mean that that changing sensation is awareness?

Look at what happens here.
There is a sensation labelled by thought as ‘tension’.
Then the sensation changes, and thoughts label it as ‘rippling flow’.
And then there is another thought with the conclusion that since the sensation changed from ‘tension’ to a ‘rippling flow’, therefore it is awareness.
But does this reasoning make any sense at all?

Can you see that all these happens in thought only?

All the labels ‘tension’, ‘rippling flow’ and ‘awareness’ are nothing else than thought labels on a plain sensation?

Does the sensation (any sensation) suggest in any way that “Hey, I am awareness”?

I'll keep looking or feeling for awareness.

Can you see that there is a belief in the above sentence?
The belief is that awareness can be FELT.

The question is, can anything else be felt other than a sensation?

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

Thanks for your reply.

So there is a change in the sensation. So what?
Just because the sensation changes, does it mean that that changing sensation is awareness?

No, not at all. I get that.

And then there is another thought with the conclusion that since the sensation changed from ‘tension’ to a ‘rippling flow’, therefore it is awareness.
But does this reasoning make any sense at all?

No, there was also the thought that the rippling flow was just another sensation too. I do realize that. I was just expressing that the search was not having success.

Can you see that all these happen in thought only?

Thank you. I see. I’ve connected the act of seeing with awareness or the idea of I, but seeing is just seeing.

All the labels ‘tension’, ‘rippling flow’ and ‘awareness’ are nothing else than thought labels on a plain sensation?

Thank you. I see.

Does the sensation (any sensation) suggest in any way that “Hey, I am awareness”?

No, they don’t.

A: I'll keep looking or feeling for awareness.

V: Can you see that there is a belief in the above sentence?
The belief is that awareness can be FELT.

Well, I realized I wasn’t really looking at anything. Just feeling things.

The question is, can anything else be felt other than a sensation?

Right. Feeling awareness would be daft. Or seeing it for that matter. So what is happening? What feels aware? Or what says, “I’m aware?” The illusion of self?

Something is happening. I’m not sure I see it. I intellectually kind of get it, but I’m not sure what the next step is.

Thank you for your time.

~Andrew

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

Right. Feeling awareness would be daft. Or seeing it for that matter. So what is happening? What feels aware? Or what says, “I’m aware?” The illusion of self?

Look into thoughts.

The whole illusion is created by thoughts.

There is a thought questions coming up: “What feels aware?”
But this thought itself assumes/suggests that awareness is a feeling.

What we are doing here is to compare thoughts to experience to see if thoughts 'telling' the truth.

If there is a thought “there is feeling of awareness” and you look at experience, and you cannot find anything there other than a sensation, then obviously that thought that “there is a feeling of awareness” is not an actual feeling of awareness, but a false, untrue thoughts ( = belief).
Can you see this?

There is just a mislabelled sensation.
Instead of the sensation being labelled as what it actually is (a ‘sensation’), it is labelled by thoughts as ‘awareness’.
Can you see this?

And this mislabelling of sensation is done because there is a learned spiritual BELIEF that there is such thing as ‘awareness’.
What you are mislabelling as ‘awareness’ is nothing else than the ‘sense of self’, which is also just the mislabelling of sensations.

It doesn’t matter what label is used, both of them are false.
The belief in awareness = the belief in the self
Both of them are pointing to the same illusion.
These are just different words about the same illusion of ME/I.
Can you see this?

I ask you again, would an eight-year old child talk about awareness?

Can you see that this whole notion of awareness is just a LEARNED INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE from spiritual books and teachers?

And can you see when this BELIEF in AWARENESS is tested, it cannot stand the scrutiny of looking at experience?

The idea of awareness sounds like an idea you may have picked up through spiritual circles or through reading.
Right now it's a concept. Can you find it in REALITY?

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

Had some resistance come up to your last post specifically around references to spiritual teachings.

Look into thoughts. The whole illusion is created by thoughts.

Thank you.

There is a thought question coming up: “What feels aware?”
But this thought itself assumes/suggests that awareness is a feeling.

OK. I guess I could of said " What IS aware?", but I guess the same thing would apply, the assumption that awareness "IS"... Then what is alive? The body I guess.

If there is a thought “there is feeling of awareness” and you look at experience, and you cannot find anything there other than a sensation, then obviously that thought that “there is a feeling of awareness” is not an actual feeling of awareness, but a false, untrue thoughts ( = belief).
Can you see this?

Yes. Thank you.

There is just a mislabelled sensation.
Instead of the sensation being labelled as what it actually is (a ‘sensation’), it is labelled by thoughts as ‘awareness’.
Can you see this?

Yes. I get it. Stop mislabeling. Recognize the existing mislabeled sensations.

What you are mislabelling as ‘awareness’ is nothing else than the ‘sense of self’, which is also just the mislabelling of sensations.
It doesn’t matter what label is used, both of them are false.
The belief in awareness = the belief in the self
Both of them are pointing to the same illusion.
These are just different words about the same illusion of ME/I.
Can you see this?

Yes. I see, and I have no particular attachment to the word "awareness". It just seemed to be a better description of what I felt I was experiencing, than "I".

I ask you again, would an eight-year old child talk about awareness?

No, but they do have a sense of self and would use the words "I", "me", & "mine".

Can you see that this whole notion of awareness is just a LEARNED INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE from spiritual books and teachers?

I don’t think spiritual books or teachers are especially responsible, it seems most cultures and societies are built around the idea that there are "me"s and "you"s. (I’m not trying to be disagreeable here, I just want to be clear.)

And can you see when this BELIEF in AWARENESS is tested, it cannot stand the scrutiny of looking at experience?

Every experience of "self" I've followed since we have begun this has resolved itself into a sensation of some kind, so yes, I get that, but the "sense of self" still feels quite healthy. So I guess more scrutiny is required.

The idea of awareness sounds like an idea you may have picked up through spiritual circles or through reading.

It's just a word, I can't remember where or when I came across the concept, but I don't think it had anything to do with any spiritual teachings necessarily. And it's not a word/concept I strongly identify with. My initial introduction to spirituality was intensely concept heavy. I spent 15 years basically letting go of that, and have shied away from anything that has an ideology attached to it since. I've been throwing away ideas and beliefs as quickly as I can over the past 4 years. I say this just to be clear that I'm not (as far as I'm aware) bringing an ideology to this.

Right now it's a concept. Can you find it in REALITY?

OK. So I just keep looking for the "self", "I", "me"? That's cool. I can do that.

Thank you.

~Andrew

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

I don’t think spiritual books or teachers are especially responsible, it seems most cultures and societies are built around the idea that there are "me"s and "you"s. (I’m not trying to be disagreeable here, I just want to be clear.)

Yes, to the ‘me’ and ‘you’. But there is a difference between the belief in awareness and ‘me’. Believing in a stand-alone awareness which is beyond the ‘me’, is very popular nowadays, and there is hardly any person who signed up to this forum that is not believing in an ever present spacious awareness in the background of everything (even behind the ‘me’).

Yes. I see, and I have no particular attachment to the word "awareness". It just seemed to be a better description of what I felt I was experiencing, than "I".

But you see, it doesn’t matter what label is used, there is still a belief in the self/me/I, as some kind of entity that is at the center of this experience.

And this is central focal point is what we are investigating here.

Please sit on a chair doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch the thoughts coming and going.

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination, if any?
Can you tell where thoughts come and go, without using any imagination or speculation?

Please repeat this exercise several times before replying.

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

Believing in a stand-alone awareness which is beyond the ‘me’, is very popular nowadays, and there is hardly any person who signed up to this forum that is not believing in an ever present spacious awareness in the background of everything (even behind the ‘me’).

I see. I didn’t know that, but I get it.

Please sit on a chair doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch the thoughts coming and going.

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?

Not to the source, they seem to pop out of nowhere. But they do seem to be a reaction to stimulus. External sounds and sights, and internal sensations or content from the short-term / working memory. From one of those points thoughts/old memories will arise and ramble of in any old direction.

In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination, if any?

They disappear in much the same way as they arise, but they can trigger internal sensations, dialogues, and I guess actions if I was so inclined.

Can you tell where thoughts come and go, without using any imagination or speculation?

Not anymore clearly than I’ve expressed above. They appear to be a response, rather than an independently active faculty. From what I’ve observed anyway.

Thank you for the questions and time.

~Andrew

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

V: Can you trace a thought back to where it came?

A: Not to the source, they seem to pop out of nowhere.

But the question is: Is there a source of thoughts at all?
Not just an ASSUMED or SPECULATED source, but an ACTUAL one?

But they do seem to be a reaction to stimulus. External sounds and sights, and internal sensations or content from the short-term / working memory.

This is learned information. Saying that thoughts are coming from working memory is NOT looking.

Now, could you observe what you call ‘working memory’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment you observe? What about its shape? Color? Texture?
Anything else with which you can perceive it?

Can it be OBSERVED as thoughts are coming FROM the ‘working memory’?

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

Great!

But the question is: Is there a source of thoughts at all?
Not just an ASSUMED or SPECULATED source, but an ACTUAL one?

I have no idea. I can't perceive one.

A: But they do seem to be a reaction to stimulus. External sounds and sights, and internal sensations or content from the short-term / working memory.

V: This is learned information. Saying that thoughts are coming from working memory is NOT looking.
Now, could you observe what you call ‘working memory’ here and now?

No more than I can the source of the thinking. I have no idea where memories come from. They pop up in the same way as thoughts. I called it short-term/working memory because I had received an e-mail about 20 minutes earlier and the thought I had was related to the e-mail, and didn't appear to have been triggered by any external stimulus. So I concluded that it must be that part of the mind that works on current problems. But yes true that labeling was an assumption/speculation.

What is it in the very moment you observe? What about its shape? Color? Texture?

Just words generally. No images usually.

Anything else with which you can perceive it?

No. It's just another source of thought. Or probably from the same source of thought.

Can it be OBSERVED as thoughts are coming FROM the ‘working memory’?

Well, I can't perceive where any thoughts come from, so no. They just seem to drift or pop into my head.

So, do I inherently have the ability to perceive/see everything that is required for this process? What I mean is: If I can't see it, should I conclude it's not there and move on. Or keep looking for something until I find it? I don't mind digging, but if it's fruitless I don't mind letting it go either. I can't imagine I will ever find the source of thinking or memory, but I don't really know what that means. Thinking and thoughts happen or appear to, they don't seem to be an illusion. Although they can be complete nonsense a lot of the time.

Thank you as always,

~Andrew

[Vivien]

Hi Andrew,

So, do I inherently have the ability to perceive/see everything that is required for this process? What I mean is: If I can't see it, should I conclude it's not there and move on. Or keep looking for something until I find it? I don't mind digging, but if it's fruitless I don't mind letting it go either

It’s about searching, searching and more searching and NOT FINDING which brings about the realization of no-self.

Or keep looking for something until I find it?

You keep looking until there is no doubt whatsoever that there is NOTHING THERE.

Thinking and thoughts happen or appear to, they don't seem to be an illusion.

The appearance of thoughts is not an illusion. But what about THINKER?

So now, close your eyes and observe as thoughts come and go.
And after a while start LOOKING for the thinker.

WHERE is the thinker of thoughts, right here, right now?

If you are 100% sure that there is no thinker, then LOOK for the ONE that is SUPPOSEDLY observing the coming and going of thoughts.

Is there an experience of an observer?

Please be very thorough, and write about what you can be sure of.

Vivien

[AndrewS]

Hi Vivien,

I've been a little busy the past few days. So I'm going to take some more time with this. Initial impressions however:

WHERE is the thinker of thoughts, right here, right now?

I can't find one. Thoughts seem to occur in reaction to the environment and then cascade from there.

If you are 100% sure that there is no thinker, then LOOK for the ONE that is SUPPOSEDLY observing the coming and going of thoughts.

Is there an experience of an observer?

Yes. But the observer has the same quality as far as I can tell as "awareness" or the "I" when sought after. Which makes me wonder how observation is possible at all, so I'm going to "observe" this more.

Thank you!

~Andrew