Understand, but can’t see??

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menic18
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Understand, but can’t see??

Postby menic18 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:35 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I get it. I understand that there is no self. I understand life unfolds. I just don’t see that. There is an interruption in seeing. I sense that every time I look, the mind pattern comes in to make me feel “exhausted” before really looking..

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to see the Truth. Not understand it. Not understand from another person vicariously. But see it. I want to stop the seeking. I don’t want another 15 years to go by, or let this body die before I get to see this.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
to Eventually see what I know to be true and I want someone that can see what the thinking is doing and cut to the chase. I want someone to steer me to see where the mind is trying to cover any efforts for me to see.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Since young, I had a knack of knowing what someone might say next, or seeing someone as I had a visualization. I would also later participate in a mediumship circle. Until I later realized that most people were not after Truth. I had a spiritual awakening back about 15 years ago where I saw the mind amd the passing thoughts and I felt a separation of thinking and watching.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Verananda
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby Verananda » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:49 am

Hi menic18,

welcome to Liberation Unleashed. Glad you made it here.
I'm Verananda and I can be your guide if that's okay with you.
Should I call you menic18 or is there another name you would prefer?


Here are some arrangements we make to work together:
First I want to ask you to check out the Quote-Function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers. You can see here how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

During our conversation I will ask you a series of questions. For each, you will look at your own direct experience (DE) and answer with 100% honesty. I point. You look. You tell me what you see right there.

It is vital that you really do each “experiment” I provide, answer each question and look at your direct experience — in the present moment — instead of relying on analytical thought or memory.

During this guiding, please avoid any other teachings, spiritual books, writings, YouTube videos or talks. If you have a meditation practice, feel free to continue with it as usual. It is best to avoid analyzing, speculation and debate. The mind will try to create distraction.

Please make an effort to write here every day or at least every second. This works best if we keep a constant focus on looking. If you are unable to do this on occasion, or you need more time for looking just let me know. I'll do the same for you.


Do you agree with this?


Looking forward to our talk,
Verananda

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menic18
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby menic18 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:29 pm

Yes. Ready. You point. I will look. I want to see the Truth.

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Verananda
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby Verananda » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:52 am

fine!

We are looking for what is true in direct experience.

When looking at the entire spectrum of present experience it can be described with the terms
the seen
the heard
the (bodily) sensed
the smelled
the tasted
and (observed) thought
Can you find something else, more or beyond those terms?
Wouldn't anything "else" be just a thought about such a thing?
If there is anything more, please describe what it is and how it is experienced!


Love Ve

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menic18
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby menic18 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:50 pm

fine!

We are looking for what is true in direct experience.

When looking at the entire spectrum of present experience it can be described with the terms
the seen
the heard
the (bodily) sensed
the smelled
the tasted
and (observed) thought
Can you find something else, more or beyond those terms?
Wouldn't anything "else" be just a thought about such a thing?
If there is anything more, please describe what it is and how it is experienced!


Love Ve
hi Ve
Call me Meni
when i look at present moment experience what you described i feel isnt accurate
i see that there is seeing
i see that there is hearing
i see that there is sensing
i see that there is smelling
i see that there is tasting
and i see that something is observing thinking.

no i cant see anything else. and i see that everything else is labelled or thoughts
the only other thing that i often experience is a voiceless voice, gut instinct, or "mind vision". the mind vision is an internal viewing and the gut instinct or voiceless voice is sensed within.
thanks look forward to your response

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Verananda
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby Verananda » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:00 pm

Hi Meni,

great!
i see that there is seeing
i see that there is hearing
....
does it need this "I" for seeing or is there just seeing?
....

look around in the room in a relaxed way. Don't hang on thoughts, just notice them and let them pass.
can you find this "I" in direct experience?
or is there just seeing?
the only other thing that i often experience is a voiceless voice, gut instinct, or "mind vision". the mind vision is an internal viewing and the gut instinct or voiceless voice is sensed within.
lets have a look at this.
can it be that it is thought (coming from nowhere) and action without thought before ... just doing
anything else? or different?

love ve

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menic18
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby menic18 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:47 pm

Hi Meni,

great!
i see that there is seeing
i see that there is hearing
....
does it need this "I" for seeing or is there just seeing?
....
no. there is no i.

look around in the room in a relaxed way. Don't hang on thoughts, just notice them and let them pass.
can you find this "I" in direct experience?
or is there just seeing?

there is only seeing. only when i go to label something.. oh there is a ruler.. or a pen.. otherwise its seeing.
the only other thing that i often experience is a voiceless voice, gut instinct, or "mind vision". the mind vision is an internal viewing and the gut instinct or voiceless voice is sensed within.
lets have a look at this.
can it be that it is thought (coming from nowhere)
this doesn't feel like thought.
it feels like a knowingness. that knowingness appears almost like a statement complete.


and action without thought ... just doing
anything else? or different?
its a knowingness without thought. when there is a mind vision, its a knowingness complete within. its viewed within. not outside. and almost incorporates all of the above. seeing, hearing, sensing, all in one?
this is the best way to describe what occurs when this happens. to "me" there is something greater, or rather something that is the background in everyone that can do this simultaneously to all. there is no ownership, it feels full and complete. the words /voice doesn't carry the mind away, it stills "me".

Love Meni
looking forward to the next dialogue.

love ve

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Verananda
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby Verananda » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:24 pm

only when i go to label something.. oh there is a ruler.. or a pen.. otherwise its seeing.
is this labeling more than thought?
Is there someone / I who labels?
its viewed within. not outside.
is there a boarder / a seperation in direct experience that defines / seperates inside from outside?
..or rather something that is the background in everyone that can do this simultaneously to all.
can this be perceived? especialy that it is "in the background in everyone"? or is this thought?

it is essential that we sort out: what is realy perceived and what is added by thought!

love ve

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Verananda
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby Verananda » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:26 pm

PS: please check out the Quote-Function again. Its much easier to read.
You can see here how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

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menic18
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby menic18 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:12 am

Hi Ve

Okay from now on i will post from the pc as it is easier to navigate not sure if you could see everything that i wrote but i have noted it here with some additions.
the only other thing that i often experience is a voiceless voice, gut instinct, or "mind vision". the mind vision is an internal viewing and the gut instinct or voiceless voice is sensed within.
lets have a look at this.
can it be that it is thought (coming from nowhere)
this doesn't feel like thought. it feels like a knowingness. that knowingness appears almost like a statement complete
and action without thought ... just doing
anything else? or different?
not sure what you mean by this
it feels like a present spoken word.it is complete. i hear or see it complete. it is not a sentence. when i view thought it carries me away where as this feels different.

its a knowingness without thought. when there is a mind vision, its a knowingness complete within. the mind vision is viewed within. not outside. and almost incorporates all of the above. seeing, hearing, sensing, all in one?

this is the best way to describe what occurs when this happens. to "me" there is something that is the background where this appears. it is part of that background. there is no ownership, it feels full and complete. the words /voice doesn't carry the mind away, it stills "me".


hope this is easier to read.

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Verananda
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby Verananda » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:38 am

Hi

you saw my answere above from Do Feb 14, 2019 8:24 pm ?
I adressed some of the topics there .... please have a look to the questions there!
this doesn't feel like thought. it feels like a knowingness.
for our journey here its important to realy look what this "it feels like" realy is.
because if there is nothing sensed (including thought), nothing can be known.
when there is a mind vision, its a knowingness complete within
mind vision sounds like mental images - is it like this?
and action without thought ... just doing
anything else? or different?
not sure what you mean by this
Sometimes we say "it feels like a knowingness" when we do things without thinking about or planning to do. We do things, eg say something, going somewhere, etc and it feels like it just happens. Is it like this?

If we don't hit the point yet, please bring a simple real life example.

love Ve

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menic18
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby menic18 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:46 am

Hi Ve
thanks for responding..

only when i go to label something.. oh there is a ruler.. or a pen.. otherwise its seeing.
is this labeling more than thought?
Is there someone / I who labels?
no the label is just thought. there is just thought that labels.
its viewed within. not outside.
is there a boarder / a seperation in direct experience that defines / seperates inside from outside?[/quote]

yes the sensations are felt here in this body
..or rather something that is the background in everyone that can do this simultaneously to all.
can this be perceived? especialy that it is "in the background in everyone"? or is this thought?
there is no thought. it is felt. there are words. i see a flash of words. at this point im only using memory because this is not happening now so i cant directly experience it.

not sure if it makes sense to you.

Love

Meni

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Verananda
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby Verananda » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:32 pm

yes the sensations are felt here in this body
sensations are perceived, but how is "here in this body" perceived? What is the additional that makes sensations to "sensations here in the body"?
there is no thought. it is felt. there are words. i see a flash of words. at this point im only using memory because this is not happening now so i cant directly experience it.
please explain a bit more ....
"i see a flash of words" -> do you see words or do you hear words?
who is saying or flashing this words?
what do the words say?

love ve

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menic18
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby menic18 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:43 am

Hi Ve
Thanks for responding. im really trying to see what you are directing me towards.
sensations are perceived, but how is "here in this body" perceived? What is the additional that makes sensations to "sensations here in the body"?
i dont perceive a sensation i feel it..its here i the body because i feel it. i dont perceive it. i dont perceive sadness, i feel the sensation of sadness. the sensations are here in the body because no one else hears or feels them or perceives them. they feel local to this body.
please explain a bit more ....
"i see a flash of words" -> do you see words or do you hear words?
who is saying or flashing this words?
what do the words say
?

okay when i hear the voiceless voice i see and hear the words. its heard and seen at the same time. i dont know who says the words. whenever they appear, it is what i am seeking an answer to or need to know at that time.
the words are anything. it could be as inane as when im cooking and i think i need to add something to the cooking. and the right herb is shown. or it could be im looking for an item that i have misplaced and i get shown where it is. the showings are definitive. they are exact and come in and leave at the same pace. i dont always have them and now as i am writing this i dont have it. but for example i am looking for a receipt to an item that i have misplaced. now either i have thrown it out, or misplaced. if its misplaced, i will get a visual or a word or a "pop up" of where it is, and i will go and find it.

i guess im stuck here. it is not thoughts like everything else. this feels different. it is a knowingness.

not sure if this assists you in getting a sense of what this other sensations are.

Cheers
Meni

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Verananda
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Re: Understand, but can’t see??

Postby Verananda » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:03 pm

Hi Meni
i dont perceive a sensation i feel it..its here i the body because i feel it. i dont perceive it. i dont perceive sadness, i feel the sensation of sadness. the sensations are here in the body because no one else hears or feels them or perceives them. they feel local to this body.
what of this is direct experience, would be noticed even without any thought occuring?
and what is a logical conclusion = thought ?

the sensations are here in the body because no one else hears or feels them or perceives them.
okay when i hear the voiceless voice i see and hear the words. ...
is there realy a difference between this seeing and hearing and wordly thoughts and mental images?
it might be suprising that the misplaced thing is there where the voiceless voice said ... but that is not the question here.
investigate: is there realy a difference? or is the difference added by thought ?
maybe a thought: oh I dont no where this voice come from ... it is suprising hearing that ..... etc
and with "normal" thoughts: oh yes, thats me, thats my tought, ..... etc

observe this a bit and report what you find!

Love Ve


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