Liberation

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:19 am

I see. I’ll have to wait until
Friday or Saturday to take the time
Off work to complete the questions correctly.’is that ok?

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:08 am

you don't need to give the correct answers Suzanne,
answer what comes
it is for us to see where you are in this realization.
So you can just answer them and we go on ;)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:23 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

If you answer please take your time and answer as fully as possible, that really helps. You can answer them any way that suits you, one at a time, in pairs, or all at once, whatever is best for you.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
I know know that there’s no me, I, or self, anywhere in any shape or form. It doesn’t exist inside my body or mind. It doesn’t exist outside either. It’s all thoughts that I identified with and took for real. As I write these words, I’m aware of writing, but I don’t see a controller telling me what to say.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion, as I see it, starts when you stop looking, stop being aware. It starts with thoughts. Then I start seeking and wanting to change through thoughts the reality of the moment. That the illusion and there always a sensation of contraction in the body or conversely feeling elated from fantasizing. But I always see that my Ming gets foggy, lost, not present. As I see myself separated from all, I then seek to fix, change, defend my self, and reject(a lot).

I see it also like a film projected on a screen. The actual experience is always there (the screen), and then there’s the movie (or dream) that the separate self adds on to the actual experience to justify or reject or grasp… There’s a dream-like sensation of fogginess, of feeling lost in thoughts when the illusion kicks in. This experience can be pleasant or stressful or restlessness that accompanies the illusion and the separation from actual experience.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels quite humbling, to tell the truth. And yet, I’m amazed that direct experience is so simple and yet so easy to cover up. You really need to stay attentive to your mind’s movement, observe and check the thoughts. I feel good about this process.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
It’s an ongoing process, however, the following post opened my eyes:
« Is there really a you in charge of these? or they are simply there?
do you move the blood and make heart beat?
do you need to manage bodily functions?
when you open eyes and see colours and shapes, do you need to do anything in order to see the view?
do you need to do anything to hear sounds?
how about brain, are you in charge of what neurons fire and what new connections are made?
Are you really the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?
If now, this moment you stop believing you are a self, do you think these will stop?
That stopped me in my tracks and for the first time I saw that reality is always happening no matter what the internal dialogue is saying about it. For the first time I really heard sounds, felt sensations and so on.
Also, deconstructing my actions such as sight, taste and thought, sound and thoughts, etc, helped me observe direct experience and let it all arise of itself.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
The jury is still out on this one. I look and see that decisions, intention, choice and control happens from habitual patterns of reaction, conditioning and circumstances. I’m responsible for my actions, that doesn’t change, but there’s no separate self that orchestrates it all. For example, when I’m hungry, thoughts of lunch pop in my mind and eventually I’ll get up and eat something. Or if I’m thinking about what to eat, different taste memory pop in my mind or I see a dish that I like in the cafeteria and a decision is taken. If I’m dieting, then a whole different set of thoughts pop up and choices are made depending on many factors. I’m not super confident about this one yet 😊

6) Anything to add? Not for the time being.

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:13 pm

Thank you for your answers dear..

ok then :)

Before bringing our thread to other guide's attention we must clear all fields so let's look to this last one more,
then we will ask for their last comments..

You said:
I’m responsible for my actions
This shows we must look more automatic nature of happenings more..

If everything is happening automatic and if there is no "you" as a controller, decider, if these are all ideas
how can a "you" be responsible of any actions ?
Isnt it another idea ?


Does not hunger happen it self ?
Does not the thought about what to eat happen and choosing happen it self ?

Are you the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?

What are you responsible from really ?

Can you locate this "I" responsible of its actions ?


Look!
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:23 pm

Hi Adil,
I mean responsibility in terms of not doing anything illegal? We have a responsability to
To conduct ourselves correctly no?

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:58 pm

If everything is happening automatic and if there is no "you" as a controller, decider, if these are all ideas
how can a "you" be responsible of any actions ?
Isnt it another idea ?

Does not hunger happen it self ?
Does not the thought about what to eat happen and choosing happen it self ?

Are you the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?

What are you responsible from really ?

Can you locate this "I" responsible of its actions ?

Look!
]If everything is happening automatic and if there is no "you" as a controller, decider, if these are all ideas how can a "you" be responsible of any actions ?
Isnt it another idea ?
Of course these are more thoughts. That come from nowhere. My discomfort comes from opening the door to just doing anything at all?
I I do see that actions are just flowing naturally. And that wondering if I’m responsible is another thought about actions. This is liberating actually! I see that it is all automatic and that there’s no controller/decider.

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:08 pm

Does not hunger happen it self ?
Does not the thought about what to eat happen and choosing happen it self ?
Yes if i look directly it happens by itself. It’s all just flowing and popping rather chaotically,

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:14 pm

Are you the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?

What are you responsible from really ?

Can you locate this "I" responsible of its actions ?
I’m not the doer of anything. I look and see that it’s all automatic.
So I’m not responsible for anything really. This
Is liberating...
no I can’t find the me responsible for doing and thinking and sensing.

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:43 am

Are you the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?

What are you responsible from really ?

Can you locate this "I" responsible of its actions ?
I’m not the doer of anything. I look and see that it’s all automatic.
So I’m not responsible for anything really. This
Is liberating...
no I can’t find the me responsible for doing and thinking and sensing.
yes wonderful looking suzanne,
let's clean more..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:44 am

My discomfort comes from opening the door to just doing anything at all?
Can you talk on this little bit more please..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:54 am

Hi Adil,
I mean responsibility in terms of not doing anything illegal? We have a responsability to
To conduct ourselves correctly no?
i now you answered to the core of this question but let's make it more clear..

Doing or not doing something legal or illegal happens, conducting behaviours happens, paying telephone bills happens,
blood circulating, heart beating, seeing, hearing happens.

There is only seeing, hearing, tasting, sensing, smelling. Infact, even these words 'seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, sensing' are just words that comes out of thoughts. In reality, there is just THIS EXPERIENCE. And what is aware of this experience? It is aware of itself.

There is no one doing these things. It simply happens. Unfolds..Thoughts of responsibility / non responsibility happens for no one.

Clear ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:25 pm

i now you answered to the core of this question but let's make it more clear..

Doing or not doing something legal or illegal happens, conducting behaviours happens, paying telephone bills happens,
blood circulating, heart beating, seeing, hearing happens.

There is only seeing, hearing, tasting, sensing, smelling. Infact, even these words 'seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, sensing' are just words that comes out of thoughts. In reality, there is just THIS EXPERIENCE. And what is aware of this experience? It is aware of itself.

There is no one doing these things. It simply happens. Unfolds..Thoughts of responsibility / non responsibility happens for no one.
Hi! Yes I see the difference between experience happening naturally and thinking experience happens to me. Since there’s no I, this is an impossibility. That’s the dream. Everything happens not to me but through the body and mind? So awareness observes itself or experiences itself through thinking, hearing, seeing etc.
Decisions, choices, and behaviours Are still made but not to a separate entity. I have a question then: it unfolds out of what then?out of nothing?

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:34 pm

My discomfort comes from opening the door to just doing anything at all?
I see that actually actual experience is flowing, and since there’s no doer, my discomfort is a false problem 🙂.

Got it.

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:27 am

My discomfort comes from opening the door to just doing anything at all?
I see that actually actual experience is flowing, and since there’s no doer, my discomfort is a false problem 🙂.

Got it.
yes dear.
your discomfort is just a though arising.
that's all.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:32 am

i now you answered to the core of this question but let's make it more clear..

Doing or not doing something legal or illegal happens, conducting behaviours happens, paying telephone bills happens,
blood circulating, heart beating, seeing, hearing happens.

There is only seeing, hearing, tasting, sensing, smelling. Infact, even these words 'seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, sensing' are just words that comes out of thoughts. In reality, there is just THIS EXPERIENCE. And what is aware of this experience? It is aware of itself.

There is no one doing these things. It simply happens. Unfolds..Thoughts of responsibility / non responsibility happens for no one.
Hi! Yes I see the difference between experience happening naturally and thinking experience happens to me. Since there’s no I, this is an impossibility. That’s the dream. Everything happens not to me but through the body and mind? So awareness observes itself or experiences itself through thinking, hearing, seeing etc.
Decisions, choices, and behaviours Are still made but not to a separate entity. I have a question then: it unfolds out of what then?out of nothing?
yes good looking.

What is the actual experience of a "body-mind"
Isnt it as you say only the labelled experiences (color-sound-sensations) ?
It unfolds out of what then?out of nothing?
You watched the thoughts, where are they arising from ?
Cannot be known. We can give some labels but labels are will be giving more thoughts about it.
They just are.
It just is.


Clear ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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