Help me see reality - Guide request : adilerten

[adilerten]

Also before you make that exercise can you please LOOK carefully..

Do "you" have a body ?
What is the actual experience of a body ?

[Tiger01]

What is the actual experience of a body ?

There is an image of what is called a "Body" in AE.
But there is no actual experience of the Body.

Do "you" have a body ?

A spontaneous response is yes, look at this! Looking at hands,legs & everything else that is here.
More than this, it's a little confusing... Bcz then I'll have to think instead of looking

[Tiger01]

Requested examples, I'll write more as i encounter through the day

activity : siting on the couch reading

sitting on the couch reading : thought
sitting : sensations + thought
sound of a vehicle bird : sound + thought
noticing tingling on the skin : sensations + thought
not understanding, trying again with focus: thought + sensations
playing with keychain: image + movement + sensations + thought
yawning : sensations + movement + thought


activity : walking down the stairs

did i take my keys & everything : thought
walking down : sensations + thought
smell of eucalyptus : smell + thought


activity : eating upma

thinking about eating upma : thought
taste of upma : taste
heat of food : sensations
looking at the plate : image

[Tiger01]

Hey, Good Day!

activity: drinking coffee

same as you described


activity: showering

water flowing : image + sensations
ah this is good : thoughts
random thoughts about work : thoughts


activity: writing this answer

image of laptop, hands moving + thoughts
random sounds : sound + thoughts
finger touching the keys : sensations + thoughts

I couldn't write them all down but I'm applying them to as many activities as possible when I'm aware that I should do it :)


This exercise has been great to just notice the present as compared to somehow getting lost in thought.
It feels like generally attention is hijacked by continuous thought but today attention is more available for other aspects of reality.

All day it felt like my vocabulary was limited to thought,image,sound,sensations,taste & smell,attention.
Which lead to an insight into language,

We can find an image of an orange or image of what's called a body or sound of an engine...
I don't think we'll ever actually find an "orange" or "body or "bed" or "I" or "We" other than in our thoughts of people using English. Also these words are different in different languages.

I don't want to appear to be jumping into conclusions. But bcz you said I should write as much as possible. I wrote the above.
We might not find the "I" or "self" or "me" based on the above example.

[adilerten]

What is the actual experience of a body ?

There is an image of what is called a "Body" in AE.
But there is no actual experience of the Body.

Do "you" have a body ?

A spontaneous response is yes, look at this! Looking at hands,legs & everything else that is here.
More than this, it's a little confusing... Bcz then I'll have to think instead of looking

..Yes..let's make it clear..

The label ‘body’ is the Actual Experience of thought and not the AE of a body
The sensation labelled ‘body’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of a body
The colours (image) labelled ‘body’ is the AE of colours and not the AE of a body
The smells labelled ‘body smells’ is the AE of smell and is not the AE of a body
The sounds labelled as ‘body sounds’ is the AE of sound and not the AE of a body

A sensation is not a body
A thought is not a body
A image is not a body
A sound is not a body
A smell is not a body
A taste is not a body

There is NO BODY! Period.

Make sense ?

[adilerten]

Hey, Good Day!

activity: drinking coffee

same as you described


activity: showering

water flowing : image + sensations
ah this is good : thoughts
random thoughts about work : thoughts


activity: writing this answer

image of laptop, hands moving + thoughts
random sounds : sound + thoughts
finger touching the keys : sensations + thoughts

I couldn't write them all down but I'm applying them to as many activities as possible when I'm aware that I should do it :)


This exercise has been great to just notice the present as compared to somehow getting lost in thought.
It feels like generally attention is hijacked by continuous thought but today attention is more available for other aspects of reality.

All day it felt like my vocabulary was limited to thought,image,sound,sensations,taste & smell,attention.
Which lead to an insight into language,

We can find an image of an orange or image of what's called a body or sound of an engine...
I don't think we'll ever actually find an "orange" or "body or "bed" or "I" or "We" other than in our thoughts of people using English. Also these words are different in different languages.

I don't want to appear to be jumping into conclusions. But bcz you said I should write as much as possible. I wrote the above.
We might not find the "I" or "self" or "me" based on the above example.

Well done!
Very good looking.
Thank you for your sharp attention.
Daily looking is the very much key to realize what is really here what is not.. as you say "This exercise has been great to just notice the present as compared to somehow getting lost in thought. "
I advice you to go on doing this breaking down exercise daily your self.
let's move on..

[adilerten]

Until here if anything is not clear and if you have questions please ask.
Then let's look at nature of thoughts..

Just sit for 10-15 minutes..Take your time relax and start to observe like a playful child :)
It's not serious :)

Wait for the next thought and look, where is it coming from and where is it going?
Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?
Can you stop a thought form coming?
Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?
Is there a thinker?
Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves?
Take a good look and write what you find out.
Where are thoughts coming from, to where are they going?

Is it possible to think more than a thought at a time?

Is it possible to know which thought will pop up next, before the thought pops up?

Do you have control over thoughts?

What do you see thinking thoughts?

Can a thought think?

What can a thought do?

[Tiger01]

Wait for the next thought and look, where is it coming from and where is it going?

It's just der and then it's not der. Idk it's source or destination

Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?

NO

Can you stop a thought form coming?

NO

Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?

NO. Idk if it's 'coming' from the same place. But it's presence is approximately around the same place as other thoughts

Is it possible to think more than a thought at a time?

No, One thought after another

Is it possible to know which thought will pop up next, before the thought pops up?

NO

What can a thought do?

In direct experience it's uncertain. All that's happening is "thought exists and then does not exist"
so maybe the answer is "thought can exist"

Is there a thinker?

I can sit down and think about, what should i do in life? and a whole bunch of thoughts start popping up. I can sit and evaluate them
or I can sit down and think about, what should i have for dinner? and a whole bunch of ideas pop. I evaluate them and choose one
So there is a thinker

Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves?

Most of the times thoughts are popping by themselves.
Sometimes I can think about a certain subject. But i would not say "I'm thinking thoughts" but just "thinking"

Do you have control over thoughts?

some amount of control. I can't stop or start them but I can steer them.

What do you see thinking thoughts?

I don't understand this question. Can you elaborate with an example?

Can a thought think?

I don't understand this question. Can you elaborate with an example?
Isn't thought a result of thinking

[adilerten]

Is there a thinker?
I can sit down and think about, what should i do in life? and a whole bunch of thoughts start popping up. I can sit and evaluate them
or I can sit down and think about, what should i have for dinner? and a whole bunch of ideas pop. I evaluate them and choose one
So there is a thinker

Ok. Look at breathing. You can see that breathing is happening. You can see that labelling the movement
'I am breathing' does not change the movement. Breathing is happening no matter if I label is used or not.
Same with everything else- sitting, reading, scratching an itch, walking, talking, witnessing, observing, thinking...
is there I that is doing all this? Is there a thinker...?
Do you become a breather if the breath is conscious? Do you become a walker, a sitter?
Is there an experiencer outside of experience happening?
Can you locate this thinker ?

Do you have control over thoughts?
some amount of control. I can't stop or start them but I can steer them.

Ok can you think only for just 1 min good things without any distraction from other thoughts ?
Also you say you can steer them..Let's say you steer thoughts of a friend you know..or let's say Miami..
Why not another friend but him ? why not another place but Miami ?
How these popped up ? How was the choosing made ?
Are you really the chooser or the given situations or the circumstances or the conditioning is choosing ?

[adilerten]

Can a thought think?
I don't understand this question. Can you elaborate with an example?
Isn't thought a result of thinking

After you look and see that there is no thinker you will answer this question.
If the one thinking the thought is in thought - is a thought..
how can a thought think ?

[adilerten]

Tiger ?
i would like to remind you that at least 1 message a day is important for our momentum
;)
no problems if you cannot, that's life. but keep in mind pls.
Thank you

[Tiger01]

Hi Adil, Merry Christmas :)

I understand. I was about to send my reply 2 days back. But I left it on MS word bcz i wasn't 100% sure.
I came back looked at the answer and it felt not true. Then i wrote again, again after a while it felt not true again.
One of the metric I'm using to ensure i don't BS myself is the clarity with which i can say.
"Is Elon Musk sitting with me? HELL NO. The same level of clarity i'm trying to get in this effort."

Is there a thinker?
I can sit down and think about, what should i do in life? and a whole bunch of thoughts start popping up. I can sit and evaluate them
or I can sit down and think about, what should i have for dinner? and a whole bunch of ideas pop. I evaluate them and choose one
So there is a thinker

Ok. Look at breathing. You can see that breathing is happening. You can see that labelling the movement
'I am breathing' does not change the movement. Breathing is happening no matter if I label is used or not.
Same with everything else- sitting, reading, scratching an itch, walking, talking, witnessing, observing, thinking...
is there I that is doing all this? Is there a thinker...?
Do you become a breather if the breath is conscious? Do you become a walker, a sitter?
Is there an experiencer outside of experience happening?
Can you locate this thinker ?

I looked into this. There are no separate thinker or breather or sitter. There is just one that is doing all these activities.

'I am breathing' : Yes, adding the label I makes no difference for involuntary activities like breathing. And it is happening by itself, I'm not doing anything to make it happen.

'I am reading' : Now here, I have to put in the effort to focus, read and understand and also make notes.

'I am choosing between answering emails or watching a movie" :Now here, I have to look if anything really urgent is der if so i have to answer the emails if not i can relax. Now there is some form of analysis and choosing that i am making.
So am "I" not doing these consciously?

And so I'm convinced there is no thinker or eater or sitter but there is "me" that is choosing or thinking or walking or snapping my fingers.

Do you have control over thoughts?
some amount of control. I can't stop or start them but I can steer them.

Ok can you think only for just 1 min good things without any distraction from other thoughts ?
Also you say you can steer them..Let's say you steer thoughts of a friend you know..or let's say Miami..
Why not another friend but him ? why not another place but Miami ?
How these popped up ? How was the choosing made ?
Are you really the chooser or the given situations or the circumstances or the conditioning is choosing ?

good things is a relative term. I just timed myself, and i could think about Harry Potter for a whole min without any distractions.

and yes i could steer them. I wasn't thinking about HP and then i started thinking about it

why not another story! Idk

the thought just was. Idk.

in direct experience conditioning, circumstances etc does not exist. What exists is the thought and willingness to move in the direction of thought or unwillingness to move in the direction of thought.

So I still feel there is some amount control over thoughts. But it depends on my will power and effort.
Last few days i was a little down with fever & was low on strength. And I felt yes, I have no control over thoughts.
But today when I looked again after some recover, No... I can manage it with effort


Thank you

[adilerten]

I understand. I was about to send my reply 2 days back. But I left it on MS word bcz i wasn't 100% sure.
I came back looked at the answer and it felt not true. Then i wrote again, again after a while it felt not true again.
One of the metric I'm using to ensure i don't BS myself is the clarity with which i can say.
"Is Elon Musk sitting with me? HELL NO. The same level of clarity i'm trying to get in this effort."

:) That's ok. Thank you for your effort.

I looked into this. There are no separate thinker or breather or sitter. There is just one that is doing all these activities.

'I am breathing' : Yes, adding the label I makes no difference for involuntary activities like breathing. And it is happening by itself, I'm not doing anything to make it happen.

Very good looking. Sure it is happening it self like blood flowing, thoughts popping up!

Now there is some form of analysis and choosing that i am making.
So am "I" not doing these consciously?

Yes Choosing is made.
But where is that "you" choosing ?
Can you locate that chooser or the doer or is it just an idea ?
LOOK!

good things is a relative term. I just timed myself, and i could think about Harry Potter for a whole min without any distractions.

Sure good things is a relative terms. It is said for the sake of the exercise. Let it be HP no problem :)
That's an extraordinary talent Tiger!
Without any other thought popping like: "oh my back hurts" or "did i brush my teeth" or "what's this smell" etc.
for 1 minute you focused on Harry Potter ? WOW!

Like "Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter " without any disruption!

Are you sure ? :)

So I still feel there is some amount control over thoughts.

a "sense" of control may be there.
But we are looking for certainty.
Also if you say that you don't know how the choosing is made and why was that thought chosen
how can you be sure about a control ?

Do this please

Sit down and relax. Observe this focus of attention... see how it wanders. It simply focuses on whatever happens in the moment.
Now it might focus on thought. You might even "get lost in thought"... Did you decide to get lost in thought? Or did it simply happen?
When "you" come back to present moment experiencing, did you control how/when this happened?
Can you control thought any more than you can control sound, can you control the focus on thought any more then the focus on sound?
Or is this simply a constant flow, a constant change and movement..?

[Tiger01]

Like "Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter Harry Potter " without any disruption!
Are you sure ? :)

OH HELL NO. I meant thoughts about Harry Potter. As in Qudditch, Voldemort, Story lines... Mainly thoughts about it.
What I am trying to point is not that i can hold a thought for a minute. But I can generate thoughts in a certain direction for a few minutes without interruptions.

Sit down and relax. Observe this focus of attention... see how it wanders. It simply focuses on whatever happens in the moment.
Now it might focus on thought. You might even "get lost in thought"... Did you decide to get lost in thought? Or did it simply happen?
When "you" come back to present moment experiencing, did you control how/when this happened?
Can you control thought any more than you can control sound, can you control the focus on thought any more then the focus on sound?
Or is this simply a constant flow, a constant change and movement..?

I agree Adil. When I'm just noticing, there is as much control over thoughts, as I have over the sounds in the environment. That is when I am just noticing things.
Likewise with attention, Attention keeps shifting from random thoughts or thoughts about present experience or with the experience itself. When noticing them.
But when I put in the effort & focus I am controlling. Like the example I gave above. Thoughts are running like crazy sometimes, sometimes its quiet.
But I can think about something... So In experience there is me choosing to think about something in a focused manner.
Right now, I can pull up notes and put up a heading as "Christmas gifts" and come up with ideas for the next 15 minutes.
Honestly that is my experience.
There are three ways of being during my day
1. autopilot... no thought, just snappy actions happening bcz of repetition
2. when I'm just noticing whats happening (during mindfulness or deep breathing or direct looking/looking)
3. I'm actively involved and thinking/doing something about it
The num1 state is not even in experience bcz if I become conscious then i immediately shift to num2 or num3 state.

[Tiger01]

Another example I came across while taking deep breathes.

Breathing is happening.
For some reason, I decided to take 3 deep breaths(thought)
And then I started breathing deeply (doing)

So in this example I notice
1. I am thinking of it
2. I also have to make an effort to do it. Just thinking won't make it happen.