Knowing what I see

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Luisa
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby Luisa » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:31 pm

Very good news!

Before giving you the final questions I would like to see clearly what you mean by:
With strong emotions it seems a case of doing this process over more times and with patience.
When a sentence includes the expression "it seems" shows the time to look deeply at it.
What is that sentence in actual experience, is anything but a thought? are you taking the content of the thought by true/real?

By "doing this process" are you implying a doer, is there anything to do?

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vivslack
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby vivslack » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:40 pm

Thank you - great qn to ponder :)

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vivslack
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby vivslack » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:42 pm

There's thinking in direct experience, lots of thinking, and connected sensations, resistance.

There's no doer when I look at direct experience! Of course! Even in this experience is happening in awareness, and thoughts about it, that's all.

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Luisa
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby Luisa » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:10 am

Ok.

So is looking separated from not looking? Are the waves separated from the ocean?

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vivslack
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby vivslack » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:46 am

There's no separation. There's awareness and experience riding and falling away in awareness. The waves are the ocean.

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vivslack
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby vivslack » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:47 am

Looking happens, part of the flow of experience.

There's no trying, no looking, no I doing any of this, just experiences and awareness.

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Luisa
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby Luisa » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:52 am

Beautiful!

Please answer the following questions, one by one, as always from actual experience. Enjoy the spaciousness behind the answers given by the conceptual mind, dive into experience and bring the answers from the fertile emptiness.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

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vivslack
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby vivslack » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:10 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no 'I' 'me' 'mine' 'self' in direct experience. There never was, only thoughts, an idea about a 'self' that isnt anywhere to be found in experience.

There is nothing controlling whats happening, life is happening, its labelled and conceptualised from the point of view of the mind.


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

In my experience, thinking perceiving sensations happen, and some of the thoughts are about a character I/Viv that seemed like a person/something real and separate, but are thoughts (thoughts are real, the self isnt).

As a child theres experience happening, and then with language and seeing others as separate, an idea of self forms, thats encouraged by culture and language.

When dancing, sensations and seeing happens, and thoughts appear around 'what i am doing' etc, but theres no i doing, no one in control.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Its beautifully simple - the same but different. When thoughts about self or i happen, theyre recognised quickly and in looking in direct experience, there are only ever thoughts + sensations.

Theres often a 'sense of self' but thats an 'I am' awareness, without the 'person' in control or at risk. Theres not such defensiveness, not such a need to take thoughts about 'i' seriously.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There were so many expectations about what this seeing would feel like, be like - seeing those too were thoughts, real but not true, there was relief. Seeing already happened, experiences are flowing in awareness, theres no new state to 'get to', no state that can be 'got to' at all!


5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Thought appear and fade. Theres no i that controls which thoughts come, or make them start or stop.
When theres a decision, theres a series of thoughts, and at some point a decision happens that comes with pleasant sensations and 'feels right'. Then other thoughts come that 'explain' how 'i' rationally made that decison.
Free will and choice follow this pattern - thinking happens, choice happens, thoughts about the choice happen.
An example is just now someone asking for some time off - reading & understanding the message happened, a choice appeared as a thought and sensation, i had thoughts and words to share about it.

6) Anything to add?

Theres lots of gratitude for support in this journey - the simplicity and beautiful gift of seeing what was already there!
So many expectations (thoughts) of what it would be like that got in the way, but looking and seeing in direct experience, with new questions, it became so clear.
Thank you!

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vivslack
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby vivslack » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:37 pm

Oh and tonight a lot of dancing happened, with no judging I thoughts in the way :)

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Luisa
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby Luisa » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:22 am

Beautiful! :)

Thank you for your responses. It looks like it is very clear. Nevertheless I would like you to look at one more thing.
There is nothing controlling whats happening, life is happening, its labelled and conceptualised from the point of view of the mind.
Is "from the point of view of the mind" what is seeing in actual experience? Can a point of view be experienced? Is there a mind in actual experience?

Very good job Viv ;)

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vivslack
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby vivslack » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:48 pm

Yes, thank you for the extra question, that's useful.

In direct experience, there's concepts, thoughts about the mind and what 'its point of view is', but nothing in reality other than these thoughts.

Life flows in awareness. So simple and so beautiful.

With much gratitude for your guidance x

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Luisa
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby Luisa » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:49 pm

Hey Viv,

As we use to do, I showed your answers to other guides in order to help with the investigation. They came back with the following questions:

Theres often a 'sense of self' but thats an 'I am' awareness, without the 'person' in control or at risk. Theres not such defensiveness, not such a need to take thoughts about 'i' seriously.
Can you explain what do you mean when saying “Theres often a 'sense of self' but thats an 'I am' awareness, without the 'person' in control or at risk. ”?
When theres a decision, theres a series of thoughts, and at some point a decision happens that comes with pleasant sensations and 'feels right'. Then other thoughts come that 'explain' how 'i' rationally made that decison.
To what exactly are these thoughts and pleasant sensations happening to? Is there a difference between a thought and a thought called a decision thought? Can anyone thinking these thoughts be found.

Thank you Viv :)

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vivslack
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby vivslack » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:31 pm

Thanks for the extra questions, I'm enjoying those...

There's an awareness, knowing, no separate self in control of any experiences. Experiences happening, awareness of experiences.

These thoughts and sensations are happening in awareness, not to anyone.

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Luisa
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby Luisa » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:38 pm

Hi Viv,
Let's go deeper into this:
Can you explain what do you mean when saying “Theres often a 'sense of self' but thats an 'I am' awareness, without the 'person' in control or at risk. ”?
There's an awareness, knowing, no separate self in control of any experiences. Experiences happening, awareness of experiences.
Can a “person’ be found anywhere that is “in control or at risk”?

So, to be crystal clear about this ‘sense of self’, I’d like to ask you to explore this thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by feeling it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:-

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
Does this sense of self’ feeling actually know anything about a ‘sense of self’?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
To what exactly are these thoughts and pleasant sensations happening to? Is there a difference between a thought and a thought called a decision thought? Can anyone thinking these thoughts be found.
These thoughts and sensations are happening in awareness, not to anyone.
Please describe exactly where in awareness these thoughts and sensations are happening.
Please describe in precise detail what this 'awareness' looks like and where it is.
Is awareness experienced as anything distinct from whatever is being aware?

Please Viv, answer every single question, one by one.
:)

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vivslack
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Re: Knowing what I see

Postby vivslack » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:45 pm

Can a “person’ be found anywhere that is “in control or at risk”?
No person can be found.

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
There's not a location, shape or size. Only an assumption/belief (thought) that fades when I notice it.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
Thought communicates ideas about some 'thing' that I can't find anywhere in experience.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
No it's just a belief that thoughts are based on, with no location or attributes beyond a story, thoughts.

Does this sense of self’ feeling actually know anything about a ‘sense of self’?
There's familiar always changing emotions that I've always believed belonged to 'my self'. There's body sensations and ideas about them, nothing else.
When there is an idea of self there's no locating it anywhere in experience, just the idea of it, thought.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
There is no sound, taste, smell. There's body sensations, sometimes thoughts passing, sometimes a vague image that changes and passes - thinking.

Please describe exactly where in awareness these thoughts and sensations are happening.
I'm not sure I understand the qn? There's just thoughts and sensations happening, knowing/experiencing them.

Please describe in precise detail what this 'awareness' looks like and where it is.
Awareness doesn't look like anything and isn't in any place, it's just there. It's hard to describe, it's simply a knowing - knowing there's experiences coming & going, knowing there's gaps in between, knowing life is happening.

Is awareness experienced as anything distinct from whatever is being aware?
Awareness is experienced as the 'being aware', as the knowing of experience. It isn't experienced as distinct, but it stays when any particular experience fades away.


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