Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

[Verananda]

Thought deliberated on it, deciding if that was the number thought wanted to choose and in the end thought choose this number.

Can a thought choose anything? Look in direct experience and if so, tell me how it works! No speculation - only looking!
It would be helpfull if you do this experiment again and watch like a hawk for this! If you just think back to the last experiment it would be no more then analysing and thinking!

Surely the thought has to appear in thought for the knower to know

Can a thought appear in thought? Or is it just thought?
Can there realy a knower be found or is it just knowing, just "perceiving thoughts"?
Dont think about! Look what realy can be found!

[Turlough74]

The thought can't chose anything. I don't know where the chosen number comes from. It appears. Almost if it's there before the thought forms clearly. I would initially say "I" chose the number but "I" didn't as that's a thought. Therefore it comes from nothing!!

[Verananda]

good observation! ... so whats with the second set of questions?

Surely the thought has to appear in thought for the knower to know

Can a thought appear in thought? Or is it just thought?
Can there realy a knower be found or is it just knowing, just "perceiving thoughts"?
Dont think about! Look what realy can be found!

[Turlough74]

Thought does not appear in thought. There is only just thought and nothingness or as you quite rightly put it, knowing perceiving.

So back to decisions. They come from the nothing prior to the thought, where the illusionary self grabs a hold of it quickly. Starts deliberating the pros and cons. The fear of the right choice or not all conjured from the mind. Filling itself full of fear and what if's! The illusionary self then thinks it's made the decision, hence the belief of free will but actually this decision was made from somewhere else. In reality if you are really watching you should pick up the decision answer before the illusionary self jumps in?

[Verananda]

So back to decisions. They come from the nothing prior to the thought, where the illusionary self grabs a hold of it quickly. Starts deliberating the pros and cons. The fear of the right choice or not all conjured from the mind. Filling itself full of fear and what if's! The illusionary self then thinks it's made the decision, hence the belief of free will but actually this decision was made from somewhere else. In reality if you are really watching you should pick up the decision answer before the illusionary self jumps in?

if the self is illusionary, how can something illusionary do something like grabbing or thinking?
can a mirage in the desert quench the thirst? can it do anything?
what is this illusionary self made of in direct experience?
and how can YOU pick up the decision answer before the illusionary self jumps in?
can you prevent this illusionary self from jumping in?

look once more in direct experience what realy happens!

love verananda

[Turlough74]

if the self is illusionary, how can something illusionary do something like grabbing or thinking?

The mind grabs on. This is thought the same as the illusionary self? Is not all mind activity the illusionary self?

what is this illusionary self made of in direct experience?
and how can YOU pick up the decision answer before the illusionary self jumps in?

No because "you" is the illusionary self. It cannot be prevented.

Thanks for your patience. Sorry I'm so stuck in this

Love Billy

[Verananda]

Hi Billy,

sorry for late answer - I was away on weekend.

This is thought the same as the illusionary self? Is not all mind activity the illusionary self?

Good question! I invite you to find out for yourself! This is more helpful than any clever answer I can give you.
And we have to know for sure, that means without question mark! :-)

You skipped the most important question I asked you: What is this illusionary self made of in direct experience?

You found out that there ist nothing else than the the seen, the heard, the (bodily) sensed, the smelled, the tasted and (observed) thought. To get out of this stuck state means: If you find something other than the above, like "illusionary self", look - what is it made of? No thinking about! Next time you feel the "illusionary self jumps in": LOOK! What do you find in direct experience. What does really happen? And what was added by thought afterwards, like in the number-exercise?

Take your time! relax with ist. No rush.

love verananda

[Turlough74]

Hi Verananda

Not all mind activity is the illusionary self. In the number exercise, the number comes from nothing. Something else picks the number. (I don't know the best way to explain this other than it's not the illusionary self). Then the "I" questions if this is the number "I" really want to pick. That thought stream of the "I" can carry on and on, until one notices and starts to question the "I".

Mind is there to work out the necessities of life. The illusionary self is the nonsense chatter. Once aware to this one can see what happens. Although it is not always clear and it's easy to fall into the nonsense chatter.

Love Billy

[Verananda]

Hi Billy,

Something else picks the number. (I don't know the best way to explain this other than it's not the illusionary self).

Thats right. Now look at this something. Can you find anything in direct experience? or does the number just appear out of nothing and is perceived? Can you find anything more?

Then the "I" questions if this is the number "I" really want to pick. That thought stream of the "I" can carry on and on, until one notices and starts to question the "I".

yes, I thought come later and tells "I have choosen!".

Mind is there to work out the necessities of life.

yes, there is nothing wrong with mind and thoughts ...

The illusionary self is the nonsense chatter. Once aware to this one can see what happens. Although it is not always clear and it's easy to fall into the nonsense chatter.

IS the illusionary self more than a thought? What realy happens in your dierect experience at that point when you "to fall into the nonsense chatter"? Is there more than the "nonsense-chatter-thoughts" occuring together with the tought "I"?

you do very well!

warmly
verananda

[Turlough74]

Hi Verananda

The illusionary self is just a thought!

What realy happens in your dierect experience at that point when you "to fall into the nonsense chatter"?

I get caught up in wants, likes, dislikes, opinions and judgements. Which affect my mood and how I feel.

Is there more than the "nonsense-chatter-thoughts" occuring together with the tought "I"?

There maybe the "I" must remember to do something, etc thoughts, which are the necessary thoughts that are needed to get me through my life. Mixed in are the "I" nonsense thoughts as described above. At times I can be conscious of these and question them but it's easy to become less conscious if one is busy working. Its easy to go from necessary thoughts that flow into nonsense!

Kindest regards
Billy

[Verananda]

Hi Billy,

get caught up in wants, likes, dislikes, opinions and judgements. Which affect my mood and how I feel.

please tell me in direct experience about this! What is it that you described above? Thoughts? sensations? anything more?

Mixed in are the "I" nonsense thoughts as described above. At times I can be conscious of these and question them but it's easy to become less conscious if one is busy working. Its easy to go from necessary thoughts that flow into nonsense!

Who or what jugdes about a thought if it is a necessary thought or a nonsense thought?
What can you find in direct experience?

We will do a thought exercise next:
Take some time and sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are
saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

I'm curious about what you find out!

warmly
verananda

[Turlough74]

Hi Verananda

Can I take a bit more time on these last lot of questions.
I need to sit and spend more time on this

Thanks for all you do

Billy

[Verananda]

sure, take your time!

[Turlough74]

please tell me in direct experience about this! What is it that you described above? Thoughts? sensations? anything more?

Nothing more than thoughts and sensations!

Who or what jugdes about a thought if it is a necessary thought or a nonsense thought?
What can you find in direct experience?

Only thoughts judge thoughts

Where are they coming from and going to?

From nothing to nothing

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No. It's just happening

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?

No. Just as I can't predict the next thought. From nothing they spring up

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

There is no range. It's just auto-feed.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No. They come. Although I do have brief spells of no thoughts and visually things look subtly different. I am not forcing the thoughts to stop. Their are just moments when the stream slows.

Kindest regards
Billy

[Verananda]

Hi Billy,

Thats very good. Ist very important to realy look and I appreciate that you take the time you need. thats the the way to see the truth.

So next we will have a look at decisions .... and I have one more experiment for you:

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience.
Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Looking forward to your findings ......
Warmly
Verananda