Looking for a guide

[elliphantmoo]

Hi,

I am looking for a guide. I used the forum before, and stepped back for a while. I feel ready to re-engage.

Thanks,

Val

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,

my name is Luke and I'm here to serve you - and the truth :-)

First of all I would ask you to write every day, even if there might not always be a lot to say. This is important to stay in touch with this process. It also is a good idea to put aside all spiritual books, videos, dvds for they may distract our dialogue here.

Can you please tell me something about you:

What is your spiritual background?
How do you feel at the moment?
What will be different at the end of this process?
What are your expectations?
How will it change you/your life to know that there is no separate self?

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Luke,

Sorry for the delay - the email got buried down by my Gmail!

In answer to your questions:

What is your spiritual background?

I am a Buddhist (Triratna).

How do you feel at the moment?

I feel grounded generally in my daily life, but also unsettled by the increasing presence of change and impermanence, it's almost as though my eyes have opened to it more and I keep noticing it.

What will be different at the end of this process?

have been reflecting on those feelings that I mentioned and what's come up for me is fear. Fear of death, impermanence, intimacy, you name it. This led to questioning "who's afraid?" and the more there's an "I" the more there's fear. I am not sure I have articulated it that well!

What are your expectations?

To be perfectly honest, to leave free from fear.

How will it change you/your life to know that there is no separate self?

I guess that, like any other process, I probably won't really know. At the same time, my hope is to feel freer, and somehow, loosen that tightness that comes with fear.

Also Luke, I will write every day, but there will be occasions when I can't e.g. I am going on a week's retreat in November. Also you mentioned not to look at books or other spiritual influences, but I am part of a Triratna study group, which I will attend weekly till Christmas, and I am also translating a Buddhist book to be finished next year. I hope these commitments don't prevent me from continuing this process, but please let me know if this is not the case.

Take care,

Val

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,

Sorry for the delay - the email got buried down by my Gmail!

No problem. I'm glad you've found the message.

Also Luke, I will write every day, but there will be occasions when I can't e.g. I am going on a week's retreat in November.

That's ok, just let me know it, then I don't wait for the answer.

Also you mentioned not to look at books or other spiritual influences, but I am part of a Triratna study group, which I will attend weekly till Christmas, and I am also translating a Buddhist book to be finished next year. I hope these commitments don't prevent me from continuing this process, but please let me know if this is not the case.

Of cause you can continue with your studies and it's not necessary to interrupt your work translating this book. There are many gatecrashers and guides on LU with a Buddhistic background. Here on LU we just look at reality from a different angle:

- We only consider things to be 'real' that can be perceived in direct experience (DE).
- On the other hand everything that disappears when you no longer believe in it or when you stop imagining it, is regarded as unreal. That's also the definition we will work with.

Just one last word about it: if you realize that there is no 'you', no 'self' or 'someone' this may possibly affect your Buddhistic beliefs...

I feel grounded generally in my daily life, but also unsettled by the increasing presence of change and impermanence

Can you find this "presence of change and impermanence" right NOW - in what is seen, heard, felt in this moment?
Or is it just another concept?

To be perfectly honest, to leave free from fear.

If you really FEEL this fear, what exactly makes it to be an "unbearable" feeling?
Is the feeling itself unacceptable?
Can you find out what is behind the fear? Is there a 'someone' experiencing it?

Looking forward to your answers...

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,
are you still there??

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Luke,

Yes I am here! But I didn't receive notification of your reply. Instead I got this email today:


And when I clicked on my account this reply wasn't there. Perhaps there's a bug in the forum?

I will login on on my account daily from now on, so that I don't miss your messages.

In reply to your post:

Can you find this "presence of change and impermanence" right NOW - in what is seen, heard, felt in this moment?
Or is it just another concept?

I am not sure I understand this, but say I focus on any of the senses, what comes through the senses changes constantly, e.g. I am in the kitchen now and I hear the music on the radio which changes from one note to another, the birds are chirping away, the tv was switched off and now is on etc.

What makes fear unbearable is knowledge that some "threats" are realities. E.g. fear of death, death is inevitable. Who experiences that fear? That's a question I ask myself when I feel it. The answer is "me" - now, me doesn't exist, we are just a process of becoming, right? But that's just my intellect talking, another conceptualisation if you will. The experience of it, is that "I" very much exist and therefore terrified of "I" not existing.

Does it make sense?

Val

[elliphantmoo]

Sorry I didn't copy the email I got, here it is:

Hi Val,

are you still there?
I hope I didn't alienate you by saying that our investigation might affect
your Buddistic beliefs...
The only aim on LU is to show you that there is no self. That's all.
Nothing changes, just the perspective.

If you are not interested any more, please drop me a line.

Warm regards
Luke

In response to that, no I am not alienated at all, but I appreciate you checking in!

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,

Yes I am here! But I didn't receive notification of your reply. Instead I got this email today:

unfortunately you don't get notifications automatically. You have to click on the tools symbol on top or bottom of each forum page and choose “subscribe to this topic”:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... 21#p226721

I am not sure I understand this, but say I focus on any of the senses, what comes through the senses changes constantly, e.g. I am in the kitchen now and I hear the music on the radio which changes from one note to another, the birds are chirping away, the tv was switched off and now is on etc.

I know this seems to be some kind of children's logic: to consider only that what you can experience right now as real. But that's how it is: If you focus on the senses there is no "presence of change and impermanence"... (Perhaps children are much wiser than we are :-)

Who experiences that fear? That's a question I ask myself when I feel it.

You can't feel it if you ask yourself questions at the same time. Actually this could be a strategy of the mind to avoid feeling it as well.

Next time the fear appears, please sit down (if possible), close your eyes and let all feelings and sensations BE there.

Welcome all that is there. Identify the feeling that feels most unbearable and concentrate on that.
Realize that this feeling is just: a feeling – nothing more. Separate the feeling from all interpretations your mind will possibly present you.

Now dive into it and feel it wholeheartedly. Where in your body is it located? Let it be there, you don't have to do anything. Stay with it for a while. Notice that it only consists of “what it is” - and that you can endure it quite well...

Finally look BEHIND the fear. What is behind the fear? Is there a 'someone' experiencing it?

[elliphantmoo]

Thanks Luke,

I will try to subscribe now!

So, going back to the fear. You make a good point re. simultaneously feeling and asking.
I sat with fear (that's not difficult, it's always there, though it may change in relation to which fear is strongest that day). I really struggle to locate it in the body. Unless it's fear of death, when that one is strong, e.g. a near miss whilst driving, it's like a current going through my whole body, and I feel numb and tingly. Almost as if there's a second skin.

Finally look BEHIND the fear. What is behind the fear? Is there a 'someone' experiencing it?

Isn't that the same as asking "who is afraid"? I don't think I get this one, can you please explain a bit more?

Thanks,

Val

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,

You have to face that fear. You have to look directly at it. There's no easy way around.
You have to be with it.
You have to go through it. To see what's behind. To see if there is actually anything behind it or not...

Look at it and tell me what you see.
Is there actually such a grim phenomenon called "fear" out there in and of itself?
Does "fear" by itself exist?

What can be observed in direct experience?

Or are there just THOUGHTS ABOUT fear.
Would this "fear" exist without thoughts about fear?

If not, what does that tell us...

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Luke,

So I focused on the fear that emerged this morning, it felt like a niggle in the middle, right below the sternum. As I focused I wanted to do something with it: to dissolve it, to bring it compassion etc. then I realised what I was doing, which was not to STAY with it. Because I was afraid of getting overwhelmed (fear of fear!). When I managed for a brief moment, it wasn't fear as a label, just the bodily sensations. Then I read your post re. thoughts about fear - it feels that way, so when I actually focus on fear, it's these body sensations. I will try again when sitting tonight.

I also have a question re. my sitting practice: one of the practices is metta bahavana, I don't know if you are familiar with it, but basically it's about bringing loving kindness to oneself and others. However, it does include repeating to yourself things like "May I be well", "May I be happy". Because of the focus on "I", would this get in the way of this process? Just checking if I need to suspend it going back to what you said at the beginning.

Thanks,

Val

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,

I will try again when sitting tonight.

Yes, go deeper into this exploration. Maybe it's helpful to reread the questions I raised in the last post before you do that.

I also have a question re. my sitting practice: one of the practices is metta bahavana, I don't know if you are familiar with it, but basically it's about bringing loving kindness to oneself and others. However, it does include repeating to yourself things like "May I be well", "May I be happy". Because of the focus on "I", would this get in the way of this process? Just checking if I need to suspend it going back to what you said at the beginning.

I don't think that your practice will interfere with this inquiry. It is not an input of thoughts or ideas, but something you are used to. So if it helps you, continue with that. Also what we are doing here is not really a process. We only look to see that something we've assumed to be there is not there. That's all. So all that could happen is that - after having SEEN - you might find that the word 'I' does not find any resonance inside any more.

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Luke,

Thanks for clarifying re. metta practice, that's helpful!

OK so when I focus on the fear feeling, I get the body sensations and nothing else. But it's almost as I have to block out the thoughts going with it and labelling it. Once that happens, then anxiety rises because the sensations are labelled as fear. So I go back to the body sensations for a split second and the cycle repeats.

If I keep at it, would that be the "right" way to go, if you see what I mean? It's the idea that the gap between pure sensations and labelling will widen and thus dwell in direct experiencing?

Thanks,

Val

[Lucas369]

OK so when I focus on the fear feeling, I get the body sensations and nothing else. But it's almost as I have to block out the thoughts going with it and labelling it. Once that happens, then anxiety rises because the sensations are labelled as fear. So I go back to the body sensations for a split second and the cycle repeats.

Great! Well done! This is so important, to notice that the feeling is labeled by thoughts. And once this labeling mechanism is in progress, the negative interpretation will reinforce the (suppression of the) fear - because it is not experienced! All it wants is to be here, to be SEEN.

If I keep at it, would that be the "right" way to go, if you see what I mean? It's the idea that the gap between pure sensations and labelling will widen and thus dwell in direct experiencing?

Yes, it's a good idea to keep at it. But don't make a 'program' out of it. Whenever fear shows up, just keep feeling it. You don't have to block out the thoughts, you just start not believing them any more, when they say that fear is something that has to be avoided. Then thoughts can be there, like someone talking in a foreign language. You keep focused on feeling...

Next time you are experiencing fear: Please find out if there is a 'you' experiencing it. Or is this I/me/mine also just a label?

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Luke,

Next time you are experiencing fear: Please find out if there is a 'you' experiencing it. Or is this I/me/mine also just a label?

When the focus is on the sensations, there is only experiencing. The 'I' comes up as soon as the sensations are labelled. It's almost as though feeling the sensations is 'awareness'. This is hard to maintain though, self-awareness come in after a few seconds in the form of thoughts like 'I am experiencing this' or 'this is fear', or distraction e.g. 'what I need to do next', or reverie.

That said, this morning I had a different experience in meditation following what you suggested of just sitting. There where at times I could just really be with the feeling, as if the 'I' that I mentioned before, was not there (at times). And the interesting bit was that usually meditation is a grind, but this experience made meditation really interesting, I was curious, as if exploring something new.

I think I mentioned before I'd be going on retreats at time. I actually found one this week, so I am going tomorrow, back Thursday, which means I won't be online for those days. If there's anything else you'd suggest I try while I am aware, do feel free to let me know, else I will keep at just experiencing whatever comes up!

Have a lovely weekend,

Val