Nara's chat

[Xain]

Not quite an idea about what is responsible. More physical than that, more like the eyes being the organs of the sense therefore the blackness feels connected with the visual sense.

Hmmmm . . . these are two different things you are referring to.

The exercise was to report from the sense of seeing. So yes, there is a visual sense.
Where are 'eyes'? I don't want you to THINK what is going on, I want you to report from the sense of seeing and tell me.

But just the act of seeing reveals just what can be seen.

Ok, good.
We can cover emotions later on.

Incidentally, there will be objects appearing near or far to a place where 'seeing' appears to be being performed from. Don't worry about this for the moment - It's something to address later (subject / object in 'seeing').
Right now we are simply looking for a separate 'thing' that is doing the seeing, be it body, eyes or 'I' (Nara).

I only have a sense of some eyes, as mentioned above.

As you look out of the front window, how are you sensing 'eyes' exactly?
Please try to identify any difference between what can be found in the visual sense, and what is added by thinking what is going on.

Xain ♥

[Nara]

Where are 'eyes'? I don't want you to THINK what is going on, I want you to report from the sense of seeing and tell me.

I don't seem to be able to answer that question. I am not sure what the ' ' does to eyes in this context.

As you look out of the front window, how are you sensing 'eyes' exactly?
Please try to identify any difference between what can be found in the visual sense, and what is added by thinking what is going on.

In terms of the difference between what can be found in the visual sense and what is added later by thought. I can perceive the interaction. I seem to be able to sit with what is just information and what I think/feel about it occurring after. As to how I am sensing eyes I am in the situation as mentioned above.

I can sense what you are directing me to do but feel that I am struggling a little. I mention this for continued honesty.
Nara

[Xain]

I don't seem to be able to answer that question. I am not sure what the ' ' does to eyes in this context.

I simply use them for emphasis.

You said:

But just the act of seeing reveals just what can be seen.

Ok. Sounds good.
You then said:

I only have a sense of some eyes, as mentioned above.

That is what I am asking about. What do you mean here?
Are there a pair of eyes in what can be seen?
If not, what is this 'sense of some eyes' you are referring to?

Xain ♥

[Nara]

That is what I am asking about. What do you mean here?
Are there a pair of eyes in what can be seen?
If not, what is this 'sense of some eyes' you are referring to?

Yes there are a pair of eyes in the process of sense perception, windows on to the world and all that, but they cannot be 'seen'.

[Xain]

Go to your experience. How exactly is it known here and now that eyes are perceiving? Do you witness them perceiving? With what sense do you witness that eyes are perceiving?

Perhaps you can see a reflection or mirror image of eyes and a face. But that is not 'what is seeing', that is 'what is seen'. What is seeing the that? Can that itself be perceived?

Or if you prefer, can the perceiver be perceived?

Xain x

[Nara]

Go to your experience. How exactly is it known here and now that eyes are perceiving? Do you witness them perceiving? With what sense do you witness that eyes are perceiving?

This is difficult. I cannot really find what is perceiving the eyes

Perhaps you can see a reflection or mirror image of eyes and a face. But that is not 'what is seeing', that is 'what is seen'. What is seeing the that? Can that itself be perceived?

Or if you prefer, can the perceiver be perceived?

No it cannot, there is only that which is perceived, there is nothing else.

[Xain]

Ok . . . so . . .

'I am perceiving'.
'Eyes are perceiving'
'Body is perceiving'

Can you find an 'I', a pair of eyes or a body perceiving? - You said:

No it cannot, there is only that which is perceived, there is nothing else.

Good.
So are these three statements above anything other than ideas or beliefs about what is ASSUMED to be going on?
These statements might appear in the content of thoughts that we have. Are they anything more than that?

Let's go to 'hearing' now - Just this one sense.

Right now, you might be able to hear sounds in the room where you are or from outside.
Let's just call whatever you can hear simply 'What can be heard'.

1) In 'Hearing' can anything be found other than 'What can be heard'?
2) Can an 'I', a pair of ears or a body be found performing a function called 'hearing'? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?

After you've established some-sort of clarity in what you can find, let's look at these statements just like I did above with 'seeing'.

'I am hearing'
'Ears are hearing'
'Body is hearing'

Are these statements anything other than ideas or beliefs about what is ASSUMED to be going on?

Xain ♥

[Nara]

1) In 'Hearing' can anything be found other than 'What can be heard'?

No, same as with seeing.

2) Can an 'I', a pair of ears or a body be found performing a function called 'hearing'? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?

There is just what is heard.

'I am hearing'
'Ears are hearing'
'Body is hearing'

Are these statements anything other than ideas or beliefs about what is ASSUMED to be going on?

They are indeed just that and as ideas not needed for hearing to occur.

[Xain]

They are indeed just that and as ideas not needed for hearing to occur.

Ok, so let's look at 'feeling' now.

Please close your eyes for this exercise, as the 'seeing' sense is very powerful and may take you away from answering only from the feeling sense alone.

Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.
Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? I mean, are there two things (and hand and a desk) or is there one thing - A sensation.
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

Note: You may start to generate mental images of the body and unwittingly link the imagined images with the feelings. If this is the case, try to stop yourself from generating the images, relax and simply focus on the feeling sense alone since it is that that we are focussing on.

Xain ♥

[Nara]

1) How many things do you find? I mean, are there two things (and hand and a desk) or is there one thing - A sensation.

3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

There is just sensation. Although I can still choose to interpret the sensation being generated by a hand on the sofa. If that makes sense?
Nara

[Xain]

There is just sensation. Although I can still choose to interpret the sensation being generated by a hand on the sofa. If that makes sense?

Is this via the 'generated mental images' that I suggested might be happening?
If so, do 'mental images feel'?
Or do the mental images make it appear like it is the body doing the feeling?
Or something else?

We've gone over seeing, hearing and feeling. Was an 'I' or a 'body' found to be responsible for these senses (other than in the contents of thoughts that appear suggesting these things)?

I usually leave the weaker senses of smell and taste out of the examination, but you can examine these in the same way yourself. Can a seperate 'smeller' or 'taster' be found which is separate to the current smell or taste appearing in experience?

If we add together all what we find using all the senses and call it 'the current experience', see what you make of the following inquiry.

1) Right now there is 'the current experience'. Using the senses, can anything else be found other than 'the current experience'?
2) Is there a separate body / the body usually referred to as 'Nara' found to be doing the experiencing?
3) Can anything be found 'doing experiencing', or is there just 'an experience'.

What about the ideas 'I am experiencing' or 'This body is experiencing' . . . what do you make of these ideas?

Xain ♥

[Nara]

Or do the mental images make it appear like it is the body doing the feeling?
Or something else?

It is the effect of mental images.

1) Right now there is 'the current experience'. Using the senses, can anything else be found other than 'the current experience'?

No just the, as you say, 'current experience'.

2) Is there a separate body / the body usually referred to as 'Nara' found to be doing the experiencing?

No there is just the experience.

What about the ideas 'I am experiencing' or 'This body is experiencing' . . . what do you make of these ideas?

The phrase 'I am experiencing' is redundant to living the 'current experience'. The phrase 'This body is experiencing' is harder to say that there isn't the interaction of a physical body with the sensory perceptions that make up 'the current experience'.

[Xain]

The phrase 'This body is experiencing' is harder to say that there isn't the interaction of a physical body with the sensory perceptions that make up 'the current experience'.

You mention 'interaction'. Where are you finding this 'interaction'?
At each stage of the investigation of seeing, hearing and feeling, was a body or body parts found to be responsible for experiencing?

As mentioned previously, there may still be 'a perspective', especially in 'seeing'. Like the objects of the world are being experienced from a particular place.
That is something to examine later. What we are examinining at the moment is the belief that there is a body at the centre of experience, that is responsible for experiencing the outside world.

Xain ♥

[Nara]

You mention 'interaction'. Where are you finding this 'interaction'?

It is really when the visual sense is being used. Sight, sort of, locating sensation in a perceived physical form.

What we are examinining at the moment is the belief that there is a body at the centre of experience, that is responsible for experiencing the outside world.

There is just the experience.

[Xain]

There is just the experience.

Ok, good.

Let's move now to 'choice' and 'control'.
A simple exercise for you to do.

As you sit there, choose one of the hands - Either left or right - It doesn't matter which.
Once you have chosen a hand, raise that hand in the air.

Do this exercise as many times as you wish to and each time inquire:
1) In choosing the hand, what was FOUND that made the choice?
2) In raising the hand in the air, what was FOUND that made that happen? (Causing the muscles to contract, and the arm and hand move up).

Xain ♥