It's time

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Bill
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It's time

Postby Bill » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:17 pm

Thread for Georgina

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
I have spent a long time questioning/searching to know the true nature of what I am and I feel ready to give this a go and see if it helps. I recently had a child and am finding it fascinating watching her grow and develop a self. It seems so obvious that we do not start life with a story about who/what we are we are just purely experiencing, the me is taught/learnt over time. Not only has the whole experience taught me and reminded me about my true nature but I also feel that I want to be able to show her the truth of life from a place of real knowing/experience.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
I feel that I have intellectually understood for a long time that I/me/Georgina is just a concept of my mind, a story that is told. I understand that in reality there is only this happening and that if I am any if it I am all of it and some times I feel as though this is my true experience of life. Despite this I spend most (arguably all!) of my time caught up in the story of me especially when it comes to relating to other people. I want to see things for what they really are and be able to truly live this experience and life as it is not constantly seeing life second hand through the filter of my mind.

What is your past experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have read countless books and watched countless videos of people talking about awakening/non duality. I have a friend who has 'woken up' and although he has been massively helpful over the years in helping me to see the truth I feel that speaking with someone who is impartial to and seperate from my day to day life would somehow be easier. I have also had a lot of experience of meditation and gin varying amounts) have a fairly regular meditation practice.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?: 10

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Re: It's time

Postby Bill » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:41 pm

Hello Georgina,

Glad you're here.. Let's get started.
You're in a very special place to do this dialogue now with your new baby. Watching the learning and associations take place will be an amazing thing for you right now. I hope all is going well for baby and the family.

Two questions to start out:

1) Tell me what you want to have happen here... in your own real words.
What do you want as a result of this dialogue?

2) What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
That there is no I/you in real life; none.... zero.
That if looked for, it can't be found.
That there's just life... flowing. Just what is.

What comes up for you?
Feelings, thoughts, reactions, sensations.... list all and any that come for you.

Note - please take your time with these and answer in your own words, from your own direct experience.


Bill

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Re: It's time

Postby Georgina » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:39 pm

Hello Bill

Thank you, all is very well. I do feel very privileged to witness the process of learning a self that she is going through. It’s definitely helped me. And the irony of me trying to ‘unlearn’ it at the same time as she learns is not lost on me!
1) Tell me what you want to have happen here... in your own real words.
What do you want as a result of this dialogue?
I want to see clearly my true nature to the point where that seeing becomes my reality and the point from which I live my life. I want to know it to the core of being so that I don’t forget anymore. I feel like I glimpse it at times but fall easily back in to me-ness especially when interacting with other people.
2) What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
That there is no I/you in real life; none.... zero.
That if looked for, it can't be found.
That there's just life... flowing. Just what is.
My initial reaction is one of agreement, a sort of egoic “yeah I know that” but then a tension and nervousness in knowing that I’m not really sure. There’s a slight fear that realising that fully would mean a loss for me, fear of how that would affect my life, my family. There is a feeling of me-ness, like a tension in my heart or in the middle of my chest that my mind tells me is me. There’s thoughts around other people and that the fact that other people exist must mean that I do. But also there is an ease, a peace in the idea of life just flowing and letting myself relax in to that feels good.

Georgina

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Re: It's time

Postby Bill » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:29 pm

Thanks for the nice reply Georgina....

Here's a few ground rules I'd like to work under, let me know if any of these are an issue with you.

1. Post at least once a day or every other day if that's not possible for you, or f something comes up, let me know.

2. Be as honest in your answers as you can be in your own words. No spiritual jargon wanted.

3. Answer all questions asked and as best you can from direct experience (smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts). Long analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

6. This is not a discussion or a debate, but a guiding, or pointing... and you have an open mind and be wiling to be guided.

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Re: It's time

Postby Bill » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:31 pm

I want to see clearly my true nature to the point where that seeing becomes my reality and the point from which I live my life. I want to know it to the core of being so that I don’t forget anymore. I feel like I glimpse it at times but fall easily back in to me-ness especially when interacting with other people.
Georgina, your reality already is your reality, there is nothing to change, only your perception of it will be different. We don't get rid of a 'self' but will see 'through it' as being made up, as being the illusion it is. And forget you will, again and again, but one good look will show you that it's no more than a thought. It's only a problem for you now because you think things need to be different than they are.

Nothing will be lost aside from the illusion of 'self' and though no promises can be made as of the outcome, it very often affects the life of a person for the better. Often we see things aren't taking so seriously, less self importance, more lightness. But this can vary widly. For the most part, nothing with change except your point of view. A sense of self will remain (the sensation you have of being alive) and prove as practical as it is now to go about life as usual for you, your family as well as others. 'Chop wood carry water' as they say.
---------
Along with fears, sometimes there are deeply held beliefs about waking up that can impede a persons seeing.
I'd like you to go thru this list and tell me anything in it that you are in resistance to or have an issue with.
This is a list of what we've found as a group that liberation is not...
Below is a list of what our guides saw as expectations that can keep people stuck in their search.
In essence its a list of what this is not:

This is not about convincing anyone of anything.
This is not a self improvement program.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, or getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, nor is it magical or mystical.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I

Please read through this list a few times and if anything pushes your buttons in any way, or if you feel resistance about... let me know.
Look good at this, as we need to address any expectations that are here.
Be brutally honest in looking at this.

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Re: It's time

Postby Georgina » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:44 pm

Georgina, your reality already is your reality, there is nothing to change, only your perception of it will be different. We don't get rid of a 'self' but will see 'through it' as being made up, as being the illusion it is.
I understand what you're saying. I guess if there is a truth of life it already is the truth and therefore will already be this that is happening.
And forget you will, again and again, but one good look will show you that it's no more than a thought. It's only a problem for you now because you think things need to be different than they are.
There's a part of me that is scared of this. That really wants to see clearly enough so as not to forget. Part of me feels I have already seen it and so easily forget that it makes me wonder what is the point. But then maybe I haven't really seen. I will work on letting go of that expectation.

In terms of the list, things that jump out at me...
This is not about convincing anyone of anything
This sort of surprised me but it definitely got a reaction from me. I think there's a part of me that hopes having a better understanding of things will mean I can help other people see, partly just so I can have other people to share it with.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge
There's a sense if needing to know something that I don't already know, I guess that's like gaining extra knowledge.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
I suppose this is like the wanting it to become my reality. There is an expectation that I will see things/live differently. I can see that that holds me back. I worry how that would change my life.

I know that having expectations/preconceived idea will hold me back so I will do my best to drop them. In terms of speaking from direct experience I will do my upmost, it doesnt always feel easy but then I guess that's part of the point of this. To see things directly as they are. And as for the 6 points above there are no issues.

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Re: It's time

Postby Bill » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:24 am

There's a part of me that is scared of this. That really wants to see clearly enough so as not to forget. Part of me feels I have already seen it and so easily forget that it makes me wonder what is the point. But then maybe I haven't really seen. I will work on letting go of that expectation.
Forget the part about ‘wanting’ to let go of it, it will happen on it’s own as it always does, without a ‘you’ to control whatever outcome. You don't have to let go of anything.
This is not about Knowledge, or figuring something out. You are not here to be taught or to learn anything.
You have seen this already, you have experienced this like your baby right now sees it. You only need to remember, but for this you must LOOK, which we will get into soon enough.
This is not to convince anyone of anything
This sort of surprised me but it definitely got a reaction from me. I think there's a part of me that hopes having a better understanding of things will mean I can help other people see, partly just so I can have other people to share it with.
No one will try to make you ‘believe’ in anything, I will only point in the right direction for you to look. This is not about understanding either, this is about SEEING what’s real with your very eyes through direct experience. Once this is SEEN THROUGH, you will be able to point for others which will come quite naturally.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
I suppose this is like the wanting it to become my reality. There is an expectation that I will see things/live differently. I can see that that holds me back. I worry how that would change my life.

I know that having expectations/preconceived idea will hold me back so I will do my best to drop them. In terms of speaking from direct experience I will do my upmost, it doesnt always feel easy but then I guess that's part of the point of this.
Don’t make too much of it, this is an experience, an adventure, something exciting to re-discover. There is no YOU to drop anything so nothing will be dropped, only seen through. Nothing will change except maybe your perception of life.

Here is a simple exercise I would like you to do:

It consists of closing your eyes and looking for a self ‘Outside of thoughts’
Sit down, relax for a few minutes and just let go of thoughts as best you can for a few seconds.....and then focus and look.
And I mean to physically look.

When you look .... can you find a self, or an I, or a me outside of thoughts?

When thoughts resume, keep looking and notice what is different.
Do it as many times as you feel necessary and watch the pattern. Let me know what you find.

Have a nice day Georgina!

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Re: It's time

Postby Georgina » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:37 pm

Hi Bill

This is what I found...

There are sensations in my body, sounds, when I open my eyes there are sights but I am not these things. There is a sense that I am the observer of these things but when I look for that observer I can't find it. I can chase the sensations around my body but they are something I'm experiencing, never the experiencer. Thoughts come in and tell me I'm the observer but I know that that again is something that I am observing and not concrete proof. I have the thought that I wouldn't know the self if I saw it because I never have before. I start the exercise again, in looking for the me I'm drawn to a sensation in my chest, again Im seeing this, it's not me. My mind comes in and tells me that it's me. Daisy kicks me in her sleep (she's napping on my chest as she often does) my mind says see that's her these other feelings are you. I open my eyes and my mind starts splitting the sights in to me and other, it does it subtly, almost silently so I almost don't notice. When I look at everything with out those thoughts it's just what it is, there's no me in the things I see, be it my hands or the phone Im typing on or Daisy. They are all just there. There is nothing in the observer. But then my mind comes back in and with it doubt. Thoughts that tell me these hands are me. I feel stuck, I start again. Again Im aware of sensations in my body, i know Im experiencing them so they aren't me. I feel close like if I just push with this it'll become clear but I also feel frustrated because I can't see something that's not there. And all the while my mind is trying to claim the experiences, to tell me what's happening rather than letting me see.

I will keep looking and write again if I find anything new!

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Re: It's time

Postby Bill » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:35 pm

Great looking Georgina!

It seems that despite what you SEE thoughts come in creating doubts by claiming ownership of the experience.
So let's experiment with these thoughts for a bit. Once again, LOOK at direct experience, describe what comes first...

The computer in front of you, is it more true to say it is YOUR computer, or a computer?


------------------------------------------------
As we go thru this, whenever it comes in your mind....I'd like you to stop and look for a real self/I/me.
Not a furrowed brow type of look... but a quick relaxed glance. Just whenever it comes to you...

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Re: It's time

Postby Georgina » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:58 pm

Once again, LOOK at direct experience, describe what comes first...
The experiences come first. The sights, sounds, feelings, bodily sensations. They come in first and then the mind (pretty quickly) comes in second to claim them and label them as me or other.
The computer in front of you, is it more true to say it is YOUR computer, or a computer?
It’s more true to say a computer, there is no ownership in direct experience. Truer still would be to say it’s a picture/sight that’s seen, a quiet buzzing sound and the tapping of keys that’s heard, a feeling of touching a hard surface. It’s a collection of experiences that I call computer.
As we go thru this, whenever it comes in your mind....I'd like you to stop and look for a real self/I/me.
Not a furrowed brow type of look... but a quick relaxed glance. Just whenever it comes to you...
Don’t worry, I’m already all over that!

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Re: It's time

Postby Bill » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:25 am

Hi Georgina... you're doing really good and I really like how you're getting after it.
Once again with these questions that follow, LOOK at direct experience, describe what comes first...
The experiences come first. The sights, sounds, feelings, bodily sensations. They come in first and then the mind (pretty quickly) comes in second to claim them and label them as me or other.
So, except as a thought (which we are often willing to defend) , does a 'you" own anything? Please explain how owning happens in thoughts and then in the world.

Stop and look.... where do your thoughts come from... originate? Look as best you can to answer this question...

It’s a collection of experiences that I call computer.
What is this ‘I’ that calls these experiences as ‘a computer’?

Don’t worry, I’m already all over that!
Yes, I can see that you are.... keep it up and keep digging. You can see this is all about you doing the looking and not really about figuring anything out.


About washing/caring for Daisy… is there an ‘I’ that washes/cares for baby or is Daisy simply being washed/cared for?
Really LooK!

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Re: It's time

Postby Georgina » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:34 pm

So, except as a thought (which we are often willing to defend) , does a 'you" own anything? Please explain how owning happens in thoughts and then in the world.
I can’t own anything with out thoughts. The idea of ownership comes in with the labels of the mind. With out the mind’s labels there are just things happening, experiences being experienced. The mind and language comes in to label things and with it comes ownership and a me that owns. But before that there is just images, sounds, sensations.
Stop and look.... where do your thoughts come from... originate? Look as best you can to answer this question...
Nowhere. Thoughts just appear and disappear. There is sometimes a chain reaction, a happening appears to cause a thought or at least the content of the thought and a thought can seem to lead to a happening but such is the flow of everything. Life is just one chain reaction of things happening causing more things to happen but it all comes out of nowhere.
What is this ‘I’ that calls these experiences as ‘a computer’?
I is a name given to a collection of happenings that I call me/I/Georgina. Just like the computer is made up of experiences there is a selection of experiences that my mind calls me/I. This body with it’s sensations, the thoughts and feelings, the hearing/seeing/tasting/smelling. But then where does me end and the things I’m experiencing start? There is no point where that happens. It’s just one happening.

It doesn’t feel right to call it ‘my’ mind or say that “I” call it that but that is how it feels. Or is that just a trick of language?! I’ve used my mind for so long to describe everything I don’t know how to do it any other way. So much so that it feels true and makes it damn hard to see it any other way!
About washing/caring for Daisy… is there an ‘I’ that washes/cares for baby or is Daisy simply being washed/cared for?
It feels wrong to even say being washed/cared for. Those are labels too. All day as I’ve gone about doing things I’ve thought about this and it seems that if you look with out thoughts there is again just a happening. For instance ‘holding Daisy’ is a label for a collection of experiences that include the feeling of weight, the touch/pressure against my arms, tiredness in said arms and so on. To call it holding Daisy is to start to label it and implies a holder and a holdee. How can one function in life with out language splitting everything up, making a you and a them, a holding/holder/held?

I feel like this whole thing is on the tip of my tongue/experience but yet I’m missing something. It’s like it’s all there but it feels too simple, like there should be something more and my mind seems to hold tighter the more I try to look.

I hope what I've written makes some sense, I feel like I'm rambling!!

Thank you for helping with this by the way! I really appreciate it. :)

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Re: It's time

Postby Bill » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:12 am

Hello Georgina,
There is sometimes a chain reaction, a happening appears to cause a thought or at least the content of the thought and a thought can seem to lead to a happening but such is the flow of everything
What can a thought do – what power does it have?
Can a thought think?
You experience thoughts, but do you experience the content? Is the content real?
It doesn’t feel right to call it ‘my’ mind or say that “I” call it that but that is how it feels. Or is that just a trick of language?! I’ve used my mind for so long to describe everything I don’t know how to do it any other way. So much so that it feels true and makes it damn hard to see it any other way!
Where I'd like you to look is, behind the ‘I’ in thoughts.
What is the view, looking right past the illusion, what is really there?
Keep looking for what is really there.... if anything.
For instance ‘holding Daisy’ is a label for a collection of experiences that include the feeling of weight, the touch/pressure against my arms, tiredness in said arms and so on. To call it holding Daisy is to start to label it and implies a holder and a holdee.
How can one function in life with out language splitting everything up, making a you and a them, a holding/holder/held?
Washing, caring, 'LIFEING’ yes...and yet, nothing done by a you. That is how it has always been, life is a flow. And yes all labels, stories. Tell me one thing that is not a story? How is it you could 'function' as a baby and yet you could not even think, let alone talk? You didn't know two words to put together to make a story, and you did function, and no story 'about' it.
I feel like this whole thing is on the tip of my tongue/experience but yet I’m missing something.
It’s like it’s all there but it feels too simple, like there should be something more and my mind seems to hold tighter the more I try to look.
What could be missing? What could be, that isn’t already the case, that isn't already this?
Georgina, yes, this is indeed very simple, so very simple! don’t try to look… just look…

Want you to look at is what’s JUST HERE, nothing more, and see if looking takes place or if thoughts try to pull you in to have a little chat.
There's no need struggle with this, no need to make this a problem… play with it, have fun!

See if you can bring the looking forward and leave mind chatter in the background and then bring the mind chatter forward and the looking in the background and so on… keep doing this and see how thoughts take over to own the experience, Theres nothing wrong with this, just what is… What we are looking for is simply what is. Its very obvious when seen.
There is no you, there’s only LOOKING

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Re: It's time

Postby Georgina » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:27 pm

What can a thought do – what power does it have?
Can a thought think?
You experience thoughts, but do you experience the content? Is the content real?
Thoughts can only create stories, or a the telling of stories. They cannot think. You only experience the thought, not the content. Sometimes the content points to real things but just as often it points to things that are not real. The content of thoughts itself is not real it’s just stories.
Where I'd like you to look is, behind the ‘I’ in thoughts.
What is the view, looking right past the illusion, what is really there?
Keep looking for what is really there.... if anything.
There is only experiencing happening, no person or self doing it, just the experience of looking/feeling/hearing. With out the thoughts to tell a story that is all there is.
How is it you could 'function' as a baby and yet you could not even think, let alone talk? You didn't know two words to put together to make a story, and you did function, and no story 'about' it
.

Because a baby is just life happening, flowing along. That’s all we are as adults too but the mind can come in and convince us otherwise, tells a story about a person doing things.
What could be missing? What could be, that isn’t already the case, that isn't already this?
Nothing. There is nothing other than this. I have definitely had expectations of it being more though, I think it’s had be looking some big bang experience.
Want you to look at is what’s JUST HERE, nothing more, and see if looking takes place or if thoughts try to pull you in to have a little chat.
There's no need struggle with this, no need to make this a problem… play with it, have fun!
I’ve been mulling this over all day. Thoughts definitely come in for a little chat all the time but earlier I realised that when I look past them there is only looking, just the experience of what ever is happening being experienced. No one is doing that looking. I’m sort of yo-yoing between seeing this and then the mind comes in again and with it a sense of me but then when that is looked at again I see that that me-ness is experienced rather than what I am. And the experiencing/looking is just happening by itself. And then the me-ness comes back and wonders what I am if I’m not what I thought I was but then this is seen as mind chatter. There’s a sense of fear of the unknown, again though that is experienced so cannot be me. And there is no one experiencing it. As I’ve gone about doing things this evening I have completely forgotten all this at times and then remembered again, felt like I had just been flowing along and then also at times caught up in the mind and the story. It’s been clear but also sometimes blurry...I think I(?) need to sleep on it!?

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Re: It's time

Postby Bill » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:27 am

Hello Georgina,

You are doing really good here, Im very pleased with how well you are seeing things so far.
Please don't worry that you need to hold onto to any kind of state... this is not about keeping some kind of so-called no self state. No.
All we are wanting to do is SEE the self illusion and things as they are. Its seen physically... literally and not cognitively.
Like if I would ask you to stop, right now, and look for a self... Can you see or find one anywhere other than the thought of one?
This is what I'd like you to do every time you might think of it.... just stop... and look...
"Is there a me that I can find"? Or, you could ask....
"There's no self.... Is it true?"
The answer to this comes from actually looking and seeing if its there or not.

Im going to share a great article from a friend of mine... Delma
It seems Delma had a person she was working with that just would not look no matter what pointer was given.
So Delma wrote this instruction to her on Looking, that was powerful and direct.
Do not take offense.... its meant as an aid to seeing what we are pointing to.
Please read it a few times and then tell me what it says to you.

-------------------------------------------------------------


Dear Seeker,

It's Never Easy to Write This....

I'm not sure how many ways I can tell you this, and so most times I just have to repeat myself. You don't listen. Thoughts crowd out the very ability to listen to direction. And! You often become frustrated with this direction and walk away from our inquiry thinking that the pointer can't be of much use. You assume that the person giving it is just wrong about what it is you need to hear in order to see this. But the truth is,

You're wrong.

There's a reason why this particular pointer is the most effective I've come across. It's direct. Blunt. It leaves no room for discussion, and my role is to end the discussion entirely.

I don't want a dialogue with you!

Don't be offended by that.


While a dialogue may help you to UNDERSTAND what's being said, that understanding isn't what's going to get this done. I'll tell you what will and I'll give it my best shot, knowing that it's worked for hundreds of people already, maybe thousands. Here it is, so listen up.

Just Look.

That's it. It's the best and most thorough pointer you're going to find if you could just stop long enough to do what's directed.

Now, you have to ask yourself this... how is it that this pointer can be it. The one. Everything. The KEY? Go ahead and ask that question. Test it out. Tear it up. How is that IT?

And when you hit a brick wall, just maybe you'll do what's being asked which is to notice that a speck of dust is more real than the self. A droplet of dew is more real than the self has ever been or can ever be.

How is that true? In what way is that true?

When the answer comes, just stop and take that in. Then scan that brain for all of the teachings which say that this is simple. Childlike. Humble. Think of all the accounts of those who've 'gotten it' and said that they couldn't believe how simple it is. And the look of wonder? It's not because they're suddenly seeing pixie dust or rainbows. It's because they stopped to follow the directive, and then they saw the truth of REALITY AS IT IS.

Now....

Just Look.

Look at something near you.... your hand even.

What is seen?
What is not?

Look at anything.
Anywhere.
Any time.

What is seen?
What is not?


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