Attacks of the "I"

[Chemilyance]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
I read that LU offers "aftercare" when the identification of I/me is gone. The belief in a Me is completely gone and the past couple of months have just been "flowing" without mind interfering. This sudden attack of Me thoughts is surprising and there is no idea of what is happening or what could be done about it.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
After being apparently free of the idea of "Me" for a couple of months there appears the experience of the mind going into High Gear suddenly. I was hoping to be guided through this or perhaps be pointed to writings that would explain what's happening.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
I started seeking a couple of years ago after what appeared to be a spontaneous awakening. There appeared to be a hellish few days a couple of months ago where the idea of Me lost cohesion and seemed to dissolve away. For the past 3 days it feels like the mind has been hijacked and produces strong Me thoughts that just keep repeating.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?
10

[JonathanR]

Hi Chemilyance,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Jon.

The belief in a Me is completely gone and the past couple of months have just been "flowing" without mind interfering. This sudden attack of Me thoughts is surprising and there is no idea of what is happening or what could be done about it.

Its great to read that belief in a 'me' is gone.

Is there a beluef that thoughts about 'I' or 'me' should not appear?

After being apparently free of the idea of "Me" for a couple of months there appears the experience of the mind going into High Gear suddenly. I was hoping to be guided through this

I'm willing to assist you in looking at this, if you like?

We would simply have a conversation, an exchange of posts aimed at exploring what is really going on and addressing any confusion.

It would be extremely helpful right now if you would take a little time to list any other expectations however small or insignificant, that you may bring to this conversation?


Warm regards,

Jon

[Chemilyance]

Hi Jon

Thank you for your response and your great questions, they pointed me to looking which appears to have provided some clarity.

Since I first posted it seems like the situation went from "attack of the I's" to full blown personing/selfing - the whole shebang! Not only did me as a person return full on but other people returned. Behaviours that had disappeared a couple of months ago returned, everything seems the same as it was before whatever happened but it feels worse somehow. The inner critic now has claws, fangs and venom.

Is there a beluef that thoughts about 'I' or 'me' should not appear?

I don't see a belief that I or me thoughts should not appear. I'm thinking that the identifying with them felt like a spanner in the works so to speak.

It would be extremely helpful right now if you would take a little time to list any other expectations however small or insignificant, that you may bring to this conversation?

Looking for expectations I don't see any, I actually find it hard to imagine having any. What I see is the desire for this personing to STOP.

If what I'm calling personing is actually identifying/following thoughts then what is identifying? I can't seem to find an I that is identifying. When I typed STOP everything literally stopped! The mind went completely silent and there was just sitting seeing.

I have looked at something that happened and wondered if it could have triggered identifying but I don't know anything about this stuff and perhaps that's not how you'd want this conversation to proceed.
I hope I have answered your questions well enough and look forward to hearing from you.

Kind regards

Chem

[JonathanR]

Hello Chemilyance,

Since I first posted it seems like the situation went from "attack of the I's" to full blown personing/selfing - the whole shebang! Not only did me as a person return full on but other people returned. Behaviours that had disappeared a couple of months ago returned, everything seems the same as it was before whatever happened but it feels worse somehow. The inner critic now has claws, fangs and venom.

'Selfing' can happen. Thoughts can appear. Emotions can appear.

Was there ever a self? Will there ever be a self? Whatever can be thought about 'me' or 'mine', ... could that make any difference to the way things actually are...no self found anywhere in experience?

When thoughts are appearing, in you experience, is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

Are thoughts 'yours'? Do 'you' think thoughts?

I'm thinking that the identifying with them felt like a spanner in the works so to speak.

I do understand this experience you are describing. the identification 'with claws' can seem like a problem and it may well be possible to investigate that further.

Here and now, in experience, who or what is found that could actually 'fall into identification'? Or is 'identification' its self a thought (about someone, 'me', that can experince a condition of 'identification')?

What I see is the desire for this personing to STOP.

Who or what desires this? Look at this.

There may be, may have been, may sometimes be the experience of 'desire' for 'personing to stop' but where is the person, actually?

Is it seen clearly, without any shadow of doubt (cast by this recent experience, for example) that there is no 'person'?



You probably noticed that I have been using the 'Quote' function? This is found at the top of the editing screen and is useful for highlighting text. A couple of little brackets appear and you can the 'paste' text between these.

warm regards,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Chemilyance,

I am wondering if you have had time to look at my last post to you?

Thank you,

Jon

[Chemilyance]

Soŕry Jon. My laptop has packed in and I am not great at using my phone which is not so smart.
I can't find an I at all. Stories are seen, thoughts are seen, happenings are seen. Thoughts of an I feeling sorry for itself, lots of suffering but no sufferer. No distinguishable me.
A total mind f**k. Lol
Regards Chem

[JonathanR]

Hi Chem,

I'm sorry, at first I did not see that you had written the following:

I have looked at something that happened and wondered if it could have triggered identifying

What happened (if you don't mind talking about it that is)? Whatever did happen maybe you could say a little about how things progressed so that the selfing was so obvious?

It can be quite weird to see or have seen clearly that there is no self and yet notice various 'me'-centred feelings appear. But it can happen.

all the best

Jon

[Chemilyance]

Hi Jon,



I had been scrimping and saving for 15 years for the chance to buy my rented flat. The time came and the process was going well until I submitted paperwork two days late. I remember at the time there was a slight punch to the gut physical sensation when I realised it but I didn't give it thought or dwell on it. Rather than the seller pulling out of the process the said they would consider it and get back to me. All the I stuff started coming up - I was an idiot for not keeping track of the date. Then 'others' came up - the broker knew the dates and didn't get things settled on time so it was his fault, the seller won't reply to my emails or phone messages while the clock is ticking so she's a problem. Mainly it goes back to me being a screw up.

What interests me about the scenario is the element of time i.e. the 15 years of scrimping and saving is a big story. I wonder if it's the big story in time that was a 'hook' for the mind. What's interesting about it now is it's all still up in the air, there are 6 days left until the matter is over and I cannot find an I/me who gives a hoot about it. The bodymind seems not so tight and wound up right now, perhaps a bit detached - or maybe it's the start of a nervous breakdown ;).

Hope this is enough info.

Regards
Chem

[JonathanR]

Hi Chem,

. All the I stuff started coming up - I was an idiot for not keeping track of the date. Then 'others' came up - the broker knew the dates and didn't get things settled on time so it was his fault, the seller won't reply to my emails or phone messages while the clock is ticking so she's a problem. Mainly it goes back to me being a screw up.

Thanks for your descriptions.

Sounds quite challenging!

Do you take any of these thoughts about 'I' as an indication that some entity or self really exists?

Would you say that the 'problem' (if there is one) is to do with identification?


Is there something that could prevent identification from happening?

Best

Jon

[Chemilyance]

It''s all OK Jon

Love Chemical xxx

[JonathanR]

Hi Chem,

. It''s all OK Jon

Good. :-)

Are you saying that you have no more need of our conversation? If so that's fine. We can stop here. I'd be grateful if you could let me know, please?

Buit if I can be of assistance with anything else please let me know? We do have an 'aftetcare' group that many people find useful in the months after seeing no self.

Best wishes,

Jon

[Chemilyance]

Hi Jon

I seemed to disappear yesterday, there was just the isness of what is, wonderful, perfect, joyful. I seemed to reappear when I woke up this morning. After a really good look for this "me" all I could find were thoughts, feelings, apparent issues, muscle tension. No me that makes them happen, no me that they happen to. There is wondering if it's what would be called deeply entrenched behaviour patterns or residual self image like in the movie The Matrix or old programming playing out. I've named it Karma Chameleon, it comes and goes and that's fine.

What happens now - I have no idea and that's perfectly ok. I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts.

Many thanks

Chem

[JonathanR]

Hi Chem,

I seemed to disappear yesterday, there was just the isness of what is, wonderful, perfect, joyful.

Great!

I seemed to reappear when I woke up this morning.

That can happen too :-)

'Seemed' is the significant word here, isn't it?

it comes and goes and that's fine.

Sometimes there can be an expectation that if thoughts or possibly thoughts and feelings about 'me' or 'I' make any kind of an appearance this means that 'self' is still 'there'.

There is another way of looking at it which puts this in perspective. If it is seen that there is no self and it is seen that there has never been a self and never will be a self, then it becomes like a basic reality. Water is wet, for example. The universe is like this. There never was a self, only the imagined one that appears to exist independently and have its own thoughts in which it 'exists' and is at the center of things. Ha ha! :-)

This imagined self does come and go.

What happens now - I have no idea and that's perfectly ok. I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts.

OK. May I ask you a few questions just now? have a go at answering them and we will take it from there.


Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?


Please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now as if to someone who had never heard of no self before?)


How does it feel to see this?


love

Jon

[Chemilyance]

Hi Jon

No separate self at all. A faint feeling of unease in the stomach looking at the fact there never was.

It seems to me that we are continually hypnotised and brainwashed from birth by our parents and society. It reminds me of a stage hypnotist I saw in the early 80s, he gave people onions and told them they were juicy tasty apples and the people munched on them commenting on how delicious they were.
I think it starts with the idea of personal responsibility i.e. "YOU spilled the milk, YOU wet the bed, YOU made Mummy sad, YOU are naughty". Language separates everything, it cuts what is into little pieces with labels. There is cultural and social programming, morals and ethics, we appear to take on the "job" of programming ourselves as we grow and become more "independent". Gosh a great wave of sadness is happening as this is being written, I feel almost moved to tears.

Love Chem

[JonathanR]

Hi Chem,

Thanks for those answers, which are great.

Here are a few more questions, after which I'd like to invite the other guides to take a look at our conversation:

When you first noticed that there is no self was there something that made you look and see this. If so, what was it?

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Anything to add?

love

Jon