Realising nobody is here.....

[JayJ]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I have been consciously on the path for 3 years seeking in every area possible, trying all types of techniques, meditations, shatipats etc etc...

It has taken all of that to realise what the masters have said all along but I just couldn't see until recently that seeking is useless as there is no seeker and nothing to seek.

I need some guiding to see this once and for all and drop the illusion of self.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
To see through the illusion of self and be free of it.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
Seeking has finished now and enquiry had commenced around 6 months ago. The mind has become pretty quiet and doesn't distract me as much anymore but there is still the sense of separateness here.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 10

[JayJ]

Hi guys

Doesn't anybody want to guide me lol.

To be honest I feel now that there isn't much guiding to be done I'm sure glimpses have been seen already.

[ElPortal]

Hi there JayJ,

Welcome to LU and thanks for the information given so far.

If you are looking for attain some special state, then I cannot help you, but if you are up for looking into what is, has only ever been, and can only ever be the case, then we can look together if you like.

Just let me know if you are still interested and committed.

Cheers

Mark

PS also (if you wish to continue) would be good to know what to call you.

[JayJ]

Hi Mark

Thanks for agreeing to guide me.

Im definitely not looking for any special state as Ive experienced many of these during meditations and know they just come and go. I just want the truth and to be able to live from that truth.

I am fully committed to this and wont stop until no-self is realised.

Thank you again
Jay

PS You can Call me J or Jay your choice :)

[ElPortal]

Ok Jay,

So before we go further let's just clear up some basic housework around having a dialogue here:-

* Look to post regularly (at least every other day) or post to say if a break is needed.
* Please set aside any other teachings (including reading, listening to talks etc) and spiritual practices during our inquiry together (other than a daily meditation or yoga).
* Please give all your attention to this investigation. I am not here to teach or coach you, I will ask questions: your agreement is to LOOK, and to answer from firsthand direct experience in this moment, rather than from intellectually trying to work anything out.

Does that all work for you?

Mark

PS it could be handy for practical purposes to know which time zone you are in. I am in France, CET.

[JayJ]

I agree to all you said no problem at all.

I am in England so only 1 hour difference.

Jay

[ElPortal]

Hi Jay

So for our first exercise I would like you to re-read through the list of things which LU IS NOT, from the home page. (This can flush out any expectations/uncomfortable feelings). What I am inviting you to do is not so much to discuss them intellectually, but rather to pause over each item and notice whether any physical sensations come up for you ie in the body. If they do note them down and let me know.

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This isn’t a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self improvement program.

Cheers

Mark

[JayJ]

cont.......

This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts

Since being continuously on this "journey" my thoughts have diminished and I have long periods of time without much thought at all. This wasnt the case beforehand!

This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.

Not disappear but be seen through as some kind of dream or something like that

None of these brough up any feelings or emotion just the basic answers I have given, hope that is ok.

Jay :)

[JayJ]

Hi Mark

scratch the last message was a mess up............

I did as you said and read through each of the sentences, Iv pulled up some that "I" need help with.

This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.

I dont expect any of this to be the case but seeing through the illusion of self might over time make the "person" better as in they will not be so defensive etc as there is nobody to defend.

This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.

Eternal peace and happiness seems a bit far fetched but might expect to be happier once seeing takes place.

This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.

Freedom no but maybe some distance from them so can see them for what they are instead of being taken over.

This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.

Not getting rid of the self, ego or I just to see it is an illusion so not believe it anymore.

This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts

Since being continuously on this "journey" my thoughts have diminished and I have long periods of time without much thought at all. This wasnt the case beforehand!

This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.

Not disappear but be seen through as some kind of dream or something like that

None of these brought up any feelings or emotion just the basic answers I have given, hope that is ok.

Jay :)

[ElPortal]

Hi Jay,

Thanks for those observations. We may come back to some of them later.

Now I would like you to sit for about 2-3 minutes and just notice all that is happening, all that is noticed, whether sensations (all the senses) or thoughts.
Then make a list of all that was noticed for those 2-3 minutes.
Then after each item add either (E) for if it was a direct sensation or (T) for a thought.

The (E) refers to what is directly experienced via the senses, so all that can be experienced DIRECTLY in this moment.
The (T) refers to anything that is in thinking (the content of any thinking), so any memories, images, thoughts about the future, assumptions, beliefs, descriptions, statements etc.

So an example on the list might be:-

Wondering what's for dinner tonight (T)
Itching-knee sensation (E)

Then let me have your list.

When you respond each time to my posts, I invite you to get into the habit, as you consider the questions/exercises, of always noticing what sensations are coming up in the body and reporting those, not just answering the questions themselves. Of course that should come fairly naturally in this exercise, as I have asked you to label (E)'s

Cheers

Mark

[JayJ]

Hi Mark

Here goes...

So I just sat on my bed for a few minutes and witnessed all what was happening.

What is this exercise. T
Bodytingling all over. E
Feeling space and quietness E
What actually is this feeling. T
Looking at the wardrobe E
Will this help ME become liberated. T
Head feeling spacey. E
Very quiet. E
What is this and how can I go deeper. T
How long has it been now, must be 3 minutes or so. T
I will stop and report back to Mark. T

That's the list I could come up with, it was a little confusing especially at the start when I said feeling space and quietness. I wrote "E" but who is reporting the experience of the space and quietness. Hmmmmm

Thanks again for helping to guide me

Jay

[ElPortal]

Hi Jay

Thanks for your list: excellent.

In fact, all the list items include some (T) don't they, if only for the verbal labelling/description necessary to communicate here, but we'll have to accept that as part of it! Agreed?

As we continue, I would like you to notice the difference what is (E) ie what is actually happening, and what is (T) ie what is not happening except in thought. We will refer back to this from time to time.

So, how about 'Jay'. Is that (T) or (E)? Is 'he' experienced, or does he have to be thought up, assumed, deduced?

I wrote "E" but who is reporting the experience of the space and quietness. Hmmmmm

Is 'someone' necessary for reporting? Is an individual necessary for that, or can all the aspects of reporting just happen, helped by a body (which carries the label 'Jay')?

Cheers

Mark

[ElPortal]

PS don't forget to report back whatever bodily sensations (if any) come up as you consider the questions and exercises.

M

[JayJ]

Hi Mark

I will make sure to also report any bodily sensations that arise during our dialogue :)

In fact, all the list items include some (T) don't they, if only for the verbal labelling/description necessary to communicate here, but we'll have to accept that as part of it! Agreed?

I agree that all of the things I listed as (E) also had thought involved. To report anything seems that thought is somewhat involved especially in communication.

As we continue, I would like you to notice the difference what is (E) ie what is actually happening, and what is (T) ie what is not happening except in thought. We will refer back to this from time to time.

Agreed

So, how about 'Jay'. Is that (T) or (E)? Is 'he' experienced, or does he have to be thought up, assumed, deduced?

This one is a little tougher to see, "Jay" seems to be in experience but at the same time he cannot arise unless thought assumes his existence. The experience of Jay is just images/colours and sensations but cannot locate an actual "Jay" entity thing.

Is 'someone' necessary for reporting? Is an individual necessary for that, or can all the aspects of reporting just happen, helped by a body (which carries the label 'Jay')?

I dont see the necessity for a "someone" for reporting. I agree that the aspects of reporting just happen alongside the body which indeed carries the label "Jay".
I will look into this further and get further clarity.


Thank you
Jay

[ElPortal]

Hi Jay

Great

"Jay" seems to be in experience but at the same time he cannot arise unless thought assumes his existence

Not sure about what you mean by 'arise': this reminds me a little bit of spiritual-teaching lingo. Wondering exactly what you are meaning by this word. Appearing? Seeming to be there? or something else?

Ok so let's have a look at this 'seems-to-be-an-experience' "Jay" So could you sit for another 2-3 minutes and note down all the sensations (E). Which of those are 'Jay" and which are just life (apparently) happening?
Notice all the (T)'s to, including any which refer to 'I', 'Jay', 'me', 'my' or 'mine'? Are they anything more than mental assumptions, mental constructs?

CHeers

Mark