I would love a guide to help me!

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

So, from what you write, it looks as though there is at least SOME seeing through any 'real independent self'. Yes?

Yes, it seemed like it then but now looking back it seems like a dream. I have had several of these experiences before in my life where it felt like I was one with everything. Either with a "me" or without.

But that some things which happen cause some bodily reaction, which is then taken to be 'me'?

Yes, I think that my symptoms eg. stuffy nose, sneezing, itchy eyes, etc. changed my focus back into my body. That's the best way I can described it.

In this what you call 'sense of me' what are the sensations (E)? Please describe them in detail. Are they really 'me', or are they accompanied by assumptions (T) that 'this must be me then' (or something similar to that)?

So is this 'apparent 'me' in actual experience (E) or is it only in thought (T)?

This sense of me must be a thought or concept. I can't see it, hear it, touch it l, taste it or smell it.
But it's still a strong feeling from my head and chest.

Let's see if we can actually find this 'me' anywhere in experience. Here's a little exercise to do. Do it slowly and paying attention carefully to all that seems to be going on. Stand up from your chair, walk five paces across the room. Then turn, take five paces back, and slowly sit down again. Notice all the sensations involved. Can you actually find a 'me-controller' in charge of any of that? Or did it just happen? Are any of the sensations 'me' or does 'me' have to be assumed/thought up?

Well my body did as instructed by my thoughts. There was no "me" controller. Just body and thoughts do no "me" needed.

Jill

[ElPortal]

Hi Jill

Thanks for that response.

Well my body did as instructed by my thoughts. There was no "me" controller. Just body and thoughts do no "me" needed.

Great!

This sense of me must be a thought or concept. I can't see it, hear it, touch it l, taste it or smell it.
But it's still a strong feeling from my head and chest.

Ok, but do any of those feelings (E) equal 'me', or does it take a thought addition (T) to assume that?

Can you linger a while around those sensations in head and in chest (and any others which come up):-
Notice in depth all their attributes. Even savour them, don't try to push them away?
Note them down.
Consider, with each sensation: is it ok that this sensation is there? Does this sensation even suggest some aliveness (rather than deadness/non-existence)?
Is anything actually 'wrong' with this sensation, or does it take a thought assumption/judgement (T) added onto the sensation to conclude that?
Does this sensation equal 'I', or is it just an alive sensation?

Jill, as you consider the questions, and answer them I would encourage you to do two things:
1. Notice all the sensations (including any reactions/resistances) which come up within the body, and note those down.
2. From time to time, where appropriate, label your findings with (E) or (T) as I have been doing in my posts, so that we can be clear what is actually happening as living sensations and experiences, as opposed to what is happening only as thought.

Cheers

Mark

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

Ok, but do any of those feelings (E) equal 'me', or does it take a thought addition (T) to assume that?

Can you linger a while around those sensations in head and in chest (and any others which come up):-
Notice in depth all their attributes. Even savour them, don't try to push them away? 
Note them down. 
Consider, with each sensation: is it ok that this sensation is there? Does this sensation even suggest some aliveness (rather than deadness/non-existence)? 
Is anything actually 'wrong' with this sensation, or does it take a thought assumption/judgement (T) added onto the sensation to conclude that? 
Does this sensation equal 'I', or is it just an alive sensation?

Yes, it feels like an alive sensation, almost like sense of being. It's a subtle vibration (e). I can see where thoughts come in and put a label on them. "This is me" (t).

Jill, as you consider the questions, and answer them I would encourage you to do two things:
1. Notice all the sensations (including any reactions/resistances) which come up within the body, and note those down.
2. From time to time, where appropriate, label your findings with (E) or (T) as I have been doing in my posts, so that we can be clear what is actually happening as living sensations and experiences, as opposed to what is happening only as thought.

vibration in chest (e)
aliveness/being sensation (e) > (t)
this is me (t)
realization that thoughts but label on sensation (t)
feelings of surprise (t)

Jill

[ElPortal]

That's great, Jill

this is me (t)

1. Does this thought EVER NEED to be believed?
2. What's the problem if it IS believed?

realization that thoughts but label on sensation (t)

3. Is there any problem with this label being put there?

feelings of surprise (t)

4. Please tell me more about this. Sounds like there is an element of (E) in there? Please have a look and tell me what is (T) in that and what is (E). If applicable, describe the (E) in detail. Location, exact sensation etc.

Cheers

Mark

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

That 's great, Jill
this is me (t)
1. Does this thought EVER NEED to be believed?

no

2. What's the problem if it IS believed?

Got stumped on this. After seeing that is was only a thought and not true, I can’t go back and believe it.

realization that thoughts but label on sensation (t)
2. Is there any problem with this label being put there?

No, there is no problem as long as I don’t believe it and know it’s only a thought.

feelings of surprise (t)

3. Please tell me more about this. Sounds like there is an element of (E) in there? Please have a look and tell me what is (T) in that and what is (E). If applicable, describe the (E) in detail. Location, exact sensation etc.

Well trying to go back into memory I can say there was a tingling in my head (e) and slight flushing feeling all over my body (e). Feelings of surprise (t) was a thought afterwards.

Jill

[ElPortal]

Hi Jill

Thanks for those answers.

Now, let's look to see whether we can find any individual there who can choose or make decisions independently:-

Imagine for a moment a scene: one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground, the grass, weather conditions etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or is it more the product of environmental conditions and water, like an an ever-changing pattern?

A. Now, consider: can you find anywhere where 'I' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements, that is not a part of the overall flow?

B. Now please consider a regular decision made, eg what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from: any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!). etc etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find somewhere?

Cheers

Mark

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

Now, let's look to see whether we can find any individual there who can choose or make decisions independently:-

Imagine for a moment a scene: one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Now, let's look to see whether we can find any individual there who can choose or make decisions independently:-

No

Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground, the grass, weather conditions etc?

No its not a separate entity.

Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or is it more the product of environmental conditions and water, like an an ever-changing pattern?

It is more a product of its environment.

A. Now, consider: can you find anywhere where 'I' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements, that is not a part of the overall flow?

B. Now please consider a regular decision made, eg what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from: any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!). etc etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find somewhere?

I agree that with routine tasks and decisions there is no autonomous entity intervening. It’s the big decisions like buying a car, deciding to get married, etc. I have a problem with. I am trying to make sense of this but I am having difficulty with it. Every time I think about it (t) I feel a contraction in my chest (e) and I have had to stop. My mind is saying “this can’t be true”. I know that it only a thought and it has no validity but I’m stuck.
Jill

[ElPortal]

Hi Jill

Thanks for that response.

I agree that with routine tasks and decisions there is no autonomous entity intervening. It’s the big decisions like buying a car, deciding to get married, etc. I have a problem with. I am trying to make sense of this but I am having difficulty with it. Every time I think about it (t) I feel a contraction in my chest (e) and I have had to stop. My mind is saying “this can’t be true”. I know that it only a thought and it has no validity but I’m stuck.

Great that you noticed the contraction in the chest when the 'big decisions' are considered. Can you stay with that a little? explore it? I invite you to follow this procedure:-

Looking into Resistance:-

1. Notice the resistance, or 'difficult' emotion or 'unwelcome' feeling, along with any story/narrative/mental explanation with it.
2. Now, leaving aside the story and focus on the feeling itself behind the story. Notice all bodily sensations, their location, qualities, apparent shape, even colour, movement etc. Give this time. No need to fight them.
3. Instead of turning away from it (a natural reaction!), can it be turned towards with curiosity and affection, embraced, like little child or a pet, come for attention?
4. Ask if it has come to show you something and then waiti, allowing any mental mages, memories or other words to appear. (For example, is it trying to protect you from something?) If no, that's fine; if yes, thank it, and notice any further physical sensations which arise from these (going back to step 2. and working through again).
5. Notice the sensations staying as long as they want to, and subside or leave whenever they are ready.

Let me know what comes up.

Cheers

Mark

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

I need some more time with this. Very busy at work and have not had much time to spend with this.

Jill

[ElPortal]

Ok Jill, thanks for letting me know. Take as much time as you need.

Cheers

Mark

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

Well I spent some time contemplating this. I asked myself why is there resistance for major decisions and not the smaller ones. I got back an answer of “lack of control”. There was a visceral contraction in my gut when it came up. I tried to embrace it and see what it means. The only thing that came up was (and it’s a non-dual expression I’ve heard before), “you are just being lived”. My reaction was some fear (and another contracted feeling and some rapid breathing) which I’m trying to work through. Any help on this?

Jill

[ElPortal]

HI Jill

My reaction was some fear (and another contracted feeling and some rapid breathing) which I’m trying to work through. Any help on this?

Yes, just stay with these sensations rather than running away from them/trying to avoid/push away. See what they might have to show you (be open to any mental images which come, but don't try to force anything). Let the sensations be there, pass through in their own time and rhythm. In short, follow the Looking into Resistance procedure which I gave you. Then report back what happens (especially noting whatever E's come up, as you have been doing).

This is my suggestion.

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

I was in the state between sleeping and waking this morning and didn’t want to get up but thoughts told me I had to. Then I realized if I don’t own thoughts, there is no control or free will. There was an expansion in head and chest. I tried to bring up the fear but it was gone. During the day I felt a lot more relaxed and peaceful inside.

Jill

[ElPortal]

HI JIll

That's great. Is it ok if all states come and go in a constantly changing flux? Do you remember in the very first post what I wrote to you? :-

It is simply looking into what has only ever always been the case, whether there has ever been any real separate individual here/there. Are you ok with that?

So now 1. please give me an example of some daily decision that seems to take place. eg what clothes to put on for the day, or what to eat for a meal. Describe the process as fully as you can. Do thoughts decide anything? Or do they simply comment on what is happening? Is there an individual there who intervenes into the rest of the conditions of life to make any decision autonomously?

Then 2. give me an example of some 'large' life decision you made (call the memory up into the present) and do the same. Is it any different from the flow of the mountain stream? Did you really independently intervene into the rest of life?

In either case, can you find anyone there who was/is responsible for anything? Or was it all just one big flow of life?

Cheers

Mark

[Jilda]

Hi Mark,

So now 1. please give me an example of some daily decision that seems to take place. eg what clothes to put on for the day, or what to eat for a meal. Describe the process as fully as you can. Do thoughts decide anything? Or do they simply comment on what is happening? Is there an individual there who intervenes into the rest of the conditions of life to make any decision autonomously?

Well there is hunger then the thought I’ll make a feta cheese omelet. Not sure where the thought came from or where the decision came from.

Then 2. give me an example of some 'large' life decision you made (call the memory up into the present) and do the same. Is it any different from the flow of the mountain stream? Did you really independently intervene into the rest of life?

Well, I just had semi life decision, whether to go to travel to family party out of my area or not. There has been a lot of family friction between a niece who I’m close to and her parents.

I wasn’t going to go but I got a text and the decision was made for me plus a new role as “peacekeeper” not of my choosing, but just life choosing. Very surprising and a little freeing.

In either case, can you find anyone there who was/isresponsible for anything? Or was it all just one big flow of life?

Not sure in the first one but in the second I would say no one, just life.

Jill