Here to help you look

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neeeel
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Here to help you look

Postby neeeel » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:15 am

Hi, anyone who wants to take a look at this, please post here.
Write a little about your expectations. What do you expect to happen, what do you expect this process to be like, and what do you expect the result to be.
Also, can you say a bit about what the self is.

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JohnThomas
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Re: Here to help you look

Postby JohnThomas » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:57 am

I think that "the self" is a construction of the self-referencing mind that seems to be very useful in the mundane world but limiting and not useful in the spiritual or awakened self.

I expect to awaken---have the direct experience of the mind's cessation of the "self-referencing" mind. I expect that the result will be be a permanent condition but I expect the process might be arduous with my mind creating much confusion and emotional roadblocks to this new "knowing".

I expect that I when this awakening occurs, i will find myself to be a less jugdemental person, les anxious, less critical of myself and others. I hope to be more patient with all, and I hope to be less prone to depression and more accepting--more "in touch" with the process of living each day, and less fearful of what each day will bring.
johnthomas

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neeeel
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Re: Here to help you look

Postby neeeel » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:22 pm

Hi JohnThomas, thanks for your reply

I think that "the self" is a construction of the self-referencing mind that seems to be very useful in the mundane world but limiting and not useful in the spiritual or awakened self.
Is this really what you think, or just what you think the right answer is? whats the difference between "the self" and the spiritual or awakened self?
Do you think , for example, that you are the person who is living your life? The one who makes the decisions? The one who hears, sees, and feels? The one who thinks your thoughts? The one who inhabits your body?

I expect to awaken---have the direct experience of the mind's cessation of the "self-referencing" mind. I expect that the result will be be a permanent condition but I expect the process might be arduous with my mind creating much confusion and emotional roadblocks to this new "knowing".

I expect that I when this awakening occurs, i will find myself to be a less jugdemental person, les anxious, less critical of myself and others. I hope to be more patient with all, and I hope to be less prone to depression and more accepting--more "in touch" with the process of living each day, and less fearful of what each day will bring.
johnthomas
All or none of this may happen. We are not looking for a new "knowing", but rather a true Seeing. As you say, direct experience, rather than new knowledge. It is useful to look at your expectations for this, and keep them in mind, as they can be something that hold you back.

Neil

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JohnT.
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Re: Here to help you look

Postby JohnT. » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:42 pm

Re: your first question: I (just can't shake that "I") feel I know what you are suggesting "conceptually" and probably a few times in my life I have had a brief direct experience of living, but very rarely and briefly. Hence my wanting more and I hope (again, all those "I"s) to again have that direct experience through your coaching and guidance. This time, I am eager to live there.

Re: your second question: I have hopes about what may occur but am expecting nothing.

jt

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neeeel
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Re: Here to help you look

Postby neeeel » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:50 pm

Re: your first question: I (just can't shake that "I") feel I know what you are suggesting "conceptually" and probably a few times in my life I have had a brief direct experience of living, but very rarely and briefly. Hence my wanting more and I hope (again, all those "I"s) to again have that direct experience through your coaching and guidance. This time, I am eager to live there.
Hey
First of all, dont worry about using the "I" word. Its useful and sometimes necessary, otherwise language would become clunky and annoying.

Secondly, It would help if you answered my questions, as I am using them to point to what you need to see. So,
Do you think , for example, that you are the person who is living your life? The one who makes the decisions? The one who hears, sees, and feels? The one who thinks your thoughts? The one who inhabits your body?
Answer these questions honestly. If you feel you inhabit your body, say so. etc

Another question, What ( or who) is the self? Who is JohnT? Who or what are you referring to when you say, for example, "I have hopes about what may occur"

thanks
neil

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JohnT.
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Re: Here to help you look

Postby JohnT. » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:31 am

Yes, even though I understand it is probably not true, I believe that "I" inhabit this body and am in control of this body and mind. I do the thinking, feeling, eating, shitting, interacting, sleeping, judging, lusting, contemplating, fearing, etc. The self...my self...is that coagulation of various functioning cells inhabited by a "spirit" or "consciousness"that runs the show and makes the decisions and interacts with others who are very much like my spirit and taken altogether, gives it all some kind of "meaning". "I" is that consciousness that perceives and participates in this life.
Having had little evidence otherwise, that is how it "seems" to be and though I have thought otherwise, I might be a tough nut to crack. Thank you for your guidance.
jt

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neeeel
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Re: Here to help you look

Postby neeeel » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:34 am

Yes, even though I understand it is probably not true, I believe that "I" inhabit this body and am in control of this body and mind. I do the thinking, feeling, eating, shitting, interacting, sleeping, judging, lusting, contemplating, fearing, etc.
Ok, so this is where you need to look. Spend some time watching how things happen through out the day. For example, when you are walking, watch and see if you are controlling it? Are you moving each separate muscle in the correct order, first contract calf muscle, then hip muscle, etc etc? Or is there thoughts of "I will go here", followed by walking? Watch this with everything. When you talk, how do you, the self, control the mouth, and make the words come out? Watch and observe as much as you can throughout the day.

Also, take a look at thoughts. Are you thinking your thoughts? Can you predict the next thought? Do you notice how sometimes thoughts arise and you dont know where they came from? Can you stop your thoughts from arising? Take a look and see if you can see a link between things in the environment , and your thoughts. For example, you may see a picture of your girlfriend, and a thought will arise of the last time you saw her. Or you may see a word on an advert or something, that brings a thought related to that word. It is difficult at first to not get lost in trains of thought, so if you find yourself getting sidetracked, dont worry. Just reset and start watching the thoughts again.
The self...my self...is that coagulation of various functioning cells inhabited by a "spirit" or "consciousness"that runs the show and makes the decisions and interacts with others who are very much like my spirit and taken altogether, gives it all some kind of "meaning".
jt
This is interesting. Do you mean it builds a story? The story of your life. Events are assigned a meaning. Is this meaning real? For example part of your story could be "I am so useless. Nothing ever goes right for me". Is this story true? If you asked another person for their version of your story, would it be the same story?

Report back on what you find. But remember, thinking about this is not going to get you anywhere. You need to LOOK at what is happening in reality.

neil

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JohnThomas
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Re: Here to help you look

Postby JohnThomas » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:27 am

Neil,
For the last two days I've gone about my life as usual but trying very hard to try to notice the source of my thoughts, both what I think and where those thoughts come from. And what prompts my actions, as well. It seems so automatic. Some thoughts and actions seem to have a sequence and I seem to be in control of that sequence but maybe not. It would seem that repairing something requires a certain experience that I posses or talking with someone seems to require knowing our history together and knowing what to say next. And the repository of that experience or history seems to be "me". I've yet to experience that those events just "occur".

And I've been paying attention to what stories I've constructed about myself and the meaning I give to those stories. It is very intimidating to think that those meanings that I've worked so hard "getting right", throughout my life, are fabrications. If I really look at that, it seems I not only have wasted my life, but that I have no meaning and might simply disappear. I don't like the looks of that one at all! I've tried so hard to get it right.

To answer your question: I doubt those who know me would tell the same story about me -- I've always been amazed at how different those stories actually are when I ask and how different my stories about others are often nowhere close to matching the facts. In fact, often my stories about me don't even match the facts!

Again, my thanks.
jt

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neeeel
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Re: Here to help you look

Postby neeeel » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:08 pm

Neil,
For the last two days I've gone about my life as usual but trying very hard to try to notice the source of my thoughts, both what I think and where those thoughts come from. And what prompts my actions, as well. It seems so automatic. Some thoughts and actions seem to have a sequence and I seem to be in control of that sequence but maybe not.
Ok this is good. You notice that a lot of what happens is automatic, and doesnt seem to need any input from you?
You see that you are not doing your thoughts?
so where does this leave a belief in a separate you?


It would seem that repairing something requires a certain experience that I posses or talking with someone seems to require knowing our history together and knowing what to say next. And the repository of that experience or history seems to be "me". I've yet to experience that those events just "occur".
this repository of experience or history, how does it manifest itself? Is it some sort of entity telling the body what to do next, or is it a sequence of thoughts, images and memories? Are you doing those thoughts, images and memories? Or is it the stimuli of seeing a person that automatically and spontaneously generates the thoughts, images and memories?

And I've been paying attention to what stories I've constructed about myself and the meaning I give to those stories. It is very intimidating to think that those meanings that I've worked so hard "getting right", throughout my life, are fabrications. If I really look at that, it seems I not only have wasted my life, but that I have no meaning and might simply disappear. I don't like the looks of that one at all! I've tried so hard to get it right.
There is no you to have wasted life. How can life be wasted? Wasted by who? there is life, thats it. there are no rules ( except in your head) about what you have to achieve in your life. Maybe take a look at these beliefs about what life should be like? Are these true beliefs? Do they refer to anything real?
What is it that is going to disappear? Remember, if there is no you, then there never was. Nothing is getting removed. All that is happening is that you are seeing through a belief. The belief in a separate entity that lives life.

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neeeel
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Re: Here to help you look

Postby neeeel » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:24 am

Hi john, are you still around, are you still looking into this?


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