Unknowing

[aloracalorac]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no separate self--no doer. The separate self is an illusion created by the mind based on conditioning.

What are you looking for at LU?
I don't know whether I believe there is no separate self or whether I just want to believe that there is no separate self. What I am looking for at LU is to see through the illusion. I want to live my life not feeling like a self separate from the rest of the world. I want the direct realization that I am not a separate self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect pointers to show me that I am not a separate self. I expect pointers to help me see through the illusion. Also, I expect the guide to alert me to errors in my thinking. I expect the guide to orient me to my raw experiences, rather than to thoughts and interpretations.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been a "seeker" for about twenty years. I meditate occasionally. I attended an in-person retreat with Adyashanti in 2017. I frequently participate in online satsangs with various teachers.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[warissem]

Good morning

Read your introduction post again and notice that "I" is used many times. At each time "I" then "I" then "I". be curious about this "I". What is it? example : when you say "apple" : this concept points to an object called "apple". In the same way of looking at an apple, where does the concept "I" point to? Go on and don't refrain yourself.

Some agreements between us :

Please check in the forum once a day to post your answers or to find out my posts.

Learn how to use the quote function. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Be 100% honest in your answers which would be given through deep conviction.

Be dedicated 24/7 to the process going on.

If you agree, I will help you go through the illusion of a separate self.

Waiting for your insights

Nour

[aloracalorac]

Thank you for your offer to help me see through the illusion of a separate self. I agree to all you proposed agreements.

Although the word “apple” points to a definite physical object, there are many words, such as “liberation,” pointing to vague non-physical objects. Also, what a word points to may depend on its context. For example, if someone asked me where “I” live, I could respond by referring to my body, which is located in Dallas, Texas. If someone asked me what “I” want, I would respond by scanning my thoughts and bodily sensations, which have no physical location.

In summary, I have three answers to your question of what the concept “I” points to.
1. It depends on the context.
2. It seems to point to a vague conglomerate, all of which I label “I.”
3. There is a sense of existence here, which is pointed to by “I.”

[warissem]

Hi

In summary, I have three answers to your question of what the concept “I” points to.
1. It depends on the context.
2. It seems to point to a vague conglomerate, all of which I label “I.”
3. There is a sense of existence here, which is pointed to by “I.”

Yes, there is existence which cannot be denied. Does this existence cease if is called "not I"? or "non existence" or "apple"?
Does the change of a label has an effect on what is here now?
Does existence cease if it is not labeled?

Waiting for your insights

Nour

[aloracalorac]

Does this existence cease if is called "not I"? or "non existence" or "apple"?

No

Does the change of a label has an effect on what is here now?

No

Does existence cease if it is not labeled?

No

[warissem]

Hi

Great answers. How do you feel that labels don't have any effect on what is here now?

What arises as thoughts, sensations, feelings when you read this :

There is no separate you, no separate self which is managing life. It never was, it will never be.

Nour

[aloracalorac]

How do you feel that labels don't have any effect on what is here now?

It seems obvious. I can't identify any feeling. If you labelled my wife as ugly, that label would evoke a negative feeling in me, but it wouldn't affect the presence of my wife here now.

What arises as thoughts, sensations, feelings when you read this :

There is no separate you, no separate self which is managing life. It never was, it will never be.

First, feelings of frustration and disappointment. I have been told this many times and want to believe it and embody it, but have not done so yet.

Second, feelings of uncertainty because I now think I am managing life well, and don't know what it would be like to know that I am not.

Third, underlying all this is fear: fear of the unknown. It's like parachuting from an airplane for the first time, knowing that the parachute has been tested and knowing that there is a backup if the first fails, but I'm afraid to jump.

Now I have a question for you: Would it be feasible or advisable to do all or part of this conversation online using Zoom? I have a paid account with Zoom

[warissem]

Good evening

First, feelings of frustration and disappointment. I have been told this many times and want to believe it and embody it, but have not done so yet.

I don’t want you to believe anything but to look at what is here now and see that there is no you in any shape or form.

Second, feelings of uncertainty because I now think I am managing life well, and don't know what it would be like to know that I am not.

There is no you to manage life, life just is. Do you think that life needs you to manage it? Look at the babies, look at the animals. There never was a you in the first place. There will be no dramatic change.

Third, underlying all this is fear: fear of the unknown. It's like parachuting from an airplane for the first time, knowing that the parachute has been tested and knowing that there is a backup if the first fails, but I'm afraid to jump.

There is no need to jump, just be where you are and see what is here now without going to thoughts. Everything will unfold during our dialog, don’t worry and give faith to the process.

Now I have a question for you: Would it be feasible or advisable to do all or part of this conversation online using Zoom? I have a paid account with Zoom

We give some time to what is going on here then when necessary we’ll give a go to an interaction on zoom or whatever means (viber, whatsapp, …).

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Nour

[aloracalorac]

How will life change?

My expectation is that life will continue unchanged, but that my experience of life will change as indicated in my answer to the second question.

How will you change?

I will feel less regret for what I now label “mistakes.” As I become more forgiving of myself, I expect to be more forgiving of others.

What will be different?

Differences are indicated in my answers to the second and fourth questions.

What is missing?

I feel alien to life, perhaps more than others because of some childhood experiences. What is missing is a feeling of belonging, harmony.


I keep forgetting to thank you. Thank you for guiding me.

[warissem]

Good morning

Your expectations are quite realistic. About your gratitude, you are always much welcome.

Now, we are gonna go to familiarize with direct experience which is the clue to see through the illusion of a separate self.

Before giving answers to my questions, I invite you 1) to ponder on each question and LOOK at what is pointing to
2) SEE the answer : it means do not go for the memory (what is learnt) but to direct experience.

Direct experience is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (or sensations). There are thoughts but we use them only to communicate.

Example : there is a big difference between guessing and knowing for sure, knowing without a doubt.
Question : what is the color of the sky right now?

You can guess the answer from what you have seen a moment ago OR you open the window, LOOK AT the sky and SEE its color. Here the answer is SEEN without a doubt.
When you look at what the question is pointing to, you will see for sure that there is no self in any shape or form.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back exactly as it is shown above.

Is looking at direct experience clear for you? If not we will clarify more.

Best for you

Nour

[aloracalorac]

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

I did exactly these things, but at lunch, rather than at breakfast. I also took a walk, becoming aware of:
seeing sky, simply=color
feeling feet on ground, simply=sensation
hearing birds, simply=sound
thinking about observing and remembering my perceptions, simply=thoughts

Is looking at direct experience clear for you?

Yes.
Also, I recently started the practice of observing my thoughts. It’s fine, the rare times when I remember to do it. But most of the time, I blindly follow and identify with my thoughts.

Thank you.

[warissem]

Good morning

There is an exercise which will help you take a distance from thoughts.
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Please give a separate answer to each question after having observed the thoughts.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Waiting for your insights

Nour

[aloracalorac]

Where are they coming from and going to?

They appear to have no source or destination.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No.

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

[warissem]

Hi

Look at the answers "no" "no", ... These are right answers. Is there a you, an "I", a separate self saying them? LOOK.

Look till the answer is SEEN without a doubt.

Best for you

Nour

[aloracalorac]

Is there a you, an "I", a separate self saying them? LOOK.

Look till the answer is SEEN without a doubt.

I don’t know how to reply, because I look, but do not see. I can't find a separate self saying them, but I couldn't find a separate self when we began this dialog. It seems that nothing has changed. I will continue looking for the answer without a doubt. Meanwhile, can we continue the dialog?