Looking to be sure I have realized no-self

[EmmRJ53]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have listened to Ilona's podcasts and read gateless gatecrashers and do understand and have myself realised that the self is a brain construction - a collation of all interactions, thoughts, past happenings, perceptions and emotions with subsequent reactions all packaged and claimed by the brain as a kind of archaic survival instinct.

What are you looking for at LU?
I feel like one foot is in the old and one is in the new. I would like to understand from contacting others with the same experience, whether I have fully realised this as it feels only slight and partial to me and all the same ways of thinking are still in place with 'I', just more relaxed.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
no idea! someone with experience to talk to about this would be nice though as am alone in it. As mentioned I have read gateless gatecrashers and I have worked through underlying old traumas both with a therapist and by myself, the book helped me dig a bit deeper into identifying what more needed to be seen and I did that which helped. I agree I cannot find a self when I look and generally feel more relaxed about life - i think, so I am hoping to check with a guide whether there is something more that needs to be seen, and any advice on how long it may take someone like me with a very strong 'self' mechanism that has been defensive/preventative focused for 50yrs due to long term self-worth issues starting before 3yrs old that were buried so deep they only started surfacing mid-40's.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Not much, never believed in 'religions' but occasionally felt I could be 'spiritual' in some way, but didn't know how. Just over one year ago, I was in a bad way - stuck in adrenal dysfunction. Sought a somatic therapist who was amazing (and I now realise is 'awake' himself) later suggested I try the 'Artist's Way' by Julia Cameron. This started me on a path which let to a trail of podcasts in me seeking who I really was etc, started meditation as I had had a really great one time relaxing mindfulness session at a workplace once. Learned something of Yoga philosophy and it was all so familiar like a past life knowledge. I knew then I was on a good path which continued to learning what non-dualism is, then I found Ilona's podcast. This has occurred since June. This combined with a longer term subtle underlying feeling of just really wanting to 'find home' and understand life more deeply.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

You're off to a great start.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacey,

Thank you for your guidance. I am Em. I am in the UK. I will be able to write most days but later at night.

I have read and acknowledge the disclaimer terms and the FAQs.

I also note the guidelines, I have no other teachings ongoing, I am not a spiritual practitioner.

So to your questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

I cannot say how it will change for definite - I understand it is a perspective shift only and not necessarily all that tangible, but I hope to reduce the mind stories / detach from them and be more present without such effort.

I hope that this then results in more natural way of dealing with the world, interacting and therefore feeling more confident in making choices.

I do not know what will be different outside of me unless different choices are made which change components of life. I think the changes will be inside, so far I am calmer, less easily worried, less reactive etc. Perhaps I will stop feeling the need to keep searching for something - the feeling of underlying discontent.

What is missing is a feeling of connection, being 'home', inner peacefulness, clarity.

Warm regards,

Em.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Em,

Your expectations are fairly reasonable.

There is no "e" in my name.

Please quote one question with one answer underneath. This will matter when others have to read your "final" questions.


Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving,

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacy,

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

What comes up is that I completely agree and can see this is the truth. When I look (I have been doing this last week or two) there is no separate self operating the body or making thoughts or feelings happen. The 'self' is an imaginary construct like a 'thought entity' and it seems to me like some kind of software running in the brain. I can see how this would be constructed from birth and never challenged and reinforced and added to with every single interaction.

For example, when I re-read what has been written above, the 'self' software kicks in and starts asking questions about whether it is well-written / really reflects what was thought, what will people think of this etc. etc.

warmest regards,

Em.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Em

Okay. Those are thoughts. We're watching for a complete shift in experience. Let's continue.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:



Colored Socks



There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.



Here is an example to illustrate the difference:



If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:



• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.



• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!



Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.



For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.



Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that



We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..



Direct or Actual Experience is



Seeing

Hearing

Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)

Tasting

Smelling

Thoughts Arising (but not their content)



Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.




Loving,

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacy,

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

OK clear.

So in answer again:

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

Feels like the mind is searching for a response. Like a vague sense of panic and a kind of "but wait, this could be bad - is this a risk"? Feeling of slight increduilty. Slight pressure across the font of the brain. Like it does not compute.

Regards

Emma.

[Anastacia42]

Yes, good. Now let's practice :



Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference and I'll give you the information on that. I think Vince's starts in a few minutes.

There are 3 meetings.

Vince Shubert runs one on the weekends. Write to vinceschubert@gmail.com for the link & schedule.

Luchana & Lubo run one on Thursdays. Write to Luchana at luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Write admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link & schedule

Loving

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacy,

Sorry for the slowness, couldn't write it all last night. And thank you for the patient guidance - now getting how sticky the self is and the difference between knowing and really seeing this.

So in answer to:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Brushing teeth:
Seeing reflection in the mirror, simply= image/color
Smelling toothpaste, simply = smell
Feeling the brush as it brushes, simply = sensation
Tasting the toothpaste, simply = taste
Hearing the toothbrush buzzing, simply = sound
Thought about whether all the teeth are clean, simply = thought

Making/eating toast:
Seeing the bread and toaster, simply= image/color
smelling the toasting, simply = smell
Feeling the texture of the toast and heat, simply = sensation
Tasting the toast, simply = taste
Hearing the clicking of the toaster, simply = sound
Thought about how much honey to put on, simply = thought

Walking in the woods:
Seeing trees, ground, leaves, simply= image/color
Smelling the earth and leaves, simply = smell
Feeling the sun through the branches, simply = sensation
Tasting the wild blackberry, simply = taste
Hearing the leaves in breeze, simply = sound
Thought about how beautiful trees are, simply = thought

I will continue this today. It feels relaxing.

Thank you also for advising on the sessions :)

Best, Em.

[Anastacia42]

Excellent Emma. Yes, do as much as you like. Here's the next step:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacy

So, the following are my answers:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Yes, definitely- the second one, without labels of I or MY.

2. What is here without labels?

The breathing body, writing and thinking, body sensations.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels make the experience feel faintly separated, disjointed from the experience- less real, less sensual, less pleasant - detracts from it.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Yes, subtly. Using the labels and re-reading the list with labels produced a slight tensing in the stomach area and a feeling of concentration in the forehead area in the head. Like a tiny but of strain.

So so interesting!

Best, Em.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Close very close.

What is here without labels?
The breathing body, writing and thinking, body sensations.

The best answer is Direct Experience. Can you see that?

Here's a follow- up that should help.
thought that we made up.


Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with something called "reality." But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like "good" and "bad" are inherent characteristics of "things." But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Loving

[EmmRJ53]

Hi Stacy,

The best answer is Direct Experience. Can you see that?

Yes, I just didn't understand quite what the question was asking.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

The actual experience was that I read the word first and only noticed the text colour long after.
When ignoring the label, I can fully see the red colour.
So I'd say the word obscured the colour. Only the red colour can be experienced, not the label.

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

No labels don't have a 1-2-1 correspondence.
The brain is trained to rely on the labels first it seems, and what is really there second.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The redness is not affected by the labels in reality.

Interesting, thanks.

Em.

[Anastacia42]

Excellent. All true.

Now this. Notice how it FEELS to see these things.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,