Thoughts, triggers and doubts

[Isobel]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
ME is a mental construct. It is made of thoughts about thoughts, built up through life experiences and about body sensations. I can see how my self is not real, no more real than if I think of the word "table". There is no table in my head, and there is no ME in my head either. I also understand that ME is not this body

What are you looking for at LU?
As much as I know this intellectually, I haven't "experienced" it yet. I'm looking for a guide who can point me in the right direction because, quite frankly, I feel like I'm running around in circles not knowing what to do.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A guide might be able to see through my thinking patterns better than I can, and I'm hoping they can help with enquiries. Books and videos don't provide the structure I need. I never know if the way I enquire is correct or not. I imagine a guide would also help me avoid common pitfalls.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I'm fairly new to nonduality. I started meditation 18months ago when my husband was diagnosed with a terminal disease. I've been enquiring about who or what I am for about a year. Most times, I feel quite serene, but there are still anger triggers, doubts and need to be in the centre of the world.
I had a couple of haha moments in the last few months, but they never lasted more than a few minutes.
I've recently discovered and enjoyed watching fetter work with Pernille and Todd.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[ty0]

Hi Isobel, welcome to LU.

ME is a mental construct. It is made of thoughts about thoughts, built up through life experiences and about body sensations. I can see how my self is not real, no more real than if I think of the word "table". There is no table in my head, and there is no ME in my head either. I also understand that ME is not this body

Hm. So what's the problem? Why are you here?

As much as I know this intellectually, I haven't "experienced" it yet.

You already experience "knowing that ME is a mental construct". What more do you want to experience? You know there's no table in your head, and you experience the knowing that there is no table in the head. What's the difference here? Is there such a thing as knowing something in a non-intellectual way?

Most times, I feel quite serene, but there are still anger triggers, doubts and need to be in the centre of the world.

How do you respond when negative emotions arise?

[Isobel]

Hello ty0,

Hm. So what's the problem? Why are you here?

Well, I don't know anymore. I thought that seeing there is no self would change things a bit in the way I perceive the world.

Is there such a thing as knowing something in a non-intellectual way

The intellect can only revolve around thoughts that appear from from seemingly nowhere. When I said that I'm not "experiencing" no self, I was talking of a more intimate way of knowing, not subjected to the intellect. One morning, a few months ago, and for a few minutes, I experienced something like complete mental quietness. Just feeling through the senses. That was brilliant. I guess I was thinking that realising the self doesn't exist would be similar.

How do you respond when negative emotions arise?

This bit stings. Depending on the situation, I get agitated, I feel tension in my stomach mainly. It's like something needs to come out of my body. Then often, this is followed by a storm of thoughts. It can be very intense and come back for days. I feel like I loose total control.
Other times, negative emotions show up as low grade depression. Just want to stay in bed and do nothing, feeling guilty that I can't or don't want to snap out of it.

Anyhow, this might be beyond the first fetter.

Talk to you soon

Isobel

[ty0]

One morning, a few months ago, and for a few minutes, I experienced something like complete mental quietness. Just feeling through the senses. That was brilliant. I guess I was thinking that realising the self doesn't exist would be similar.

You experienced a quiet mind. Do you think that's what enlightenment looks like? No thoughts, pure senses, and bliss all the time? When you had that experience, did any part of it tell you anything about "no-self"? It seems as though you've somehow confused realising no-self with having a quiet mind. I wouldn't describe what you experienced as knowing because there wasn't anything to know, there was just feeling.

Are you here because you want to re-create that experience? Because you want to feel that peace and joy again?

What kind of things cause negative emotions to arise for you? Your experience of negative emotion sounds very very intense. Is there typically the idea "I need to get rid of this" when these emotions arise?

[Isobel]

Hi ty0,

Hope you're well.

Do you think that's what enlightenment looks like? No thoughts, pure senses, and bliss all the time?

No, not at all. I don't expect to have no thoughts anymore after awakening. I imagine I wouldn't identify with them and I wouldn't believe everything they say.

I wouldn't describe what you experienced as knowing because there wasn't anything to know, there was just feeling.

Thank you for the clarification but I still don't get it. Can you please explain what is that knowing you're talking about? When I look, all the "knowing" is appearing as thoughts. If I observe objects, I see colours, shapes, movement and I don't have to put labels on them. Is this what you call knowing?

Are you here because you want to re-create that experience? Because you want to feel that peace and joy again?

I'm not trying to re-create that experience. I was more curious as to how it might feel to have a shift. I understand that every one is different, and that it might never happen, and that it can only happen now. Obviously, I have no idea what it might feel like.
There is a lot of dark stuff to be dug up here and I'm willing to face whatever comes up.

Is there typically the idea "I need to get rid of this" when these emotions arise?

Yep, there has been a lot of bypassing over the years. I've only recently started to look at my emotions. In a weird way, I think going into my thoughts, round and round, even self destructing thoughts, is a way of bypassing my emotions, because I hate the tense feeling inside my body.
A few weeks ago, I looked at my anxiety around phones. Yes, you read well, PHONES. Seems crazy in this day and age. Well I looked deep into it and realised my dad used to yell at me when I couldn't remember the name or message of a caller. I felt the pain deep inside me and I talked to my younger self and to the pain in a loving manner. The pain left after a few minutes. Last week, I had to give a few important phone calls, and nothing, not a single bit of anxiety. I only noticed it afterward.
Is this the way to proceed? I'm sure bigger issues will be harder to resolve

What kind of things cause negative emotions to arise for you?

Lots of things, but mainly the ideas around:
- not being good enough
- not doing the right thing
- not being heard
- being rejected
- being judged

Thank you for listening.

[ty0]

Thank you for the clarification but I still don't get it. Can you please explain what is that knowing you're talking about? When I look, all the "knowing" is appearing as thoughts. If I observe objects, I see colours, shapes, movement and I don't have to put labels on them. Is this what you call knowing?

Sorry for the confusion. Yeah, we're on the same page, knowing is in thought. Direct experience is not known. It's just that you mentioned "a more intimate way of knowing" in your previous reply and I wanted to know what you meant by that.

There is a lot of dark stuff to be dug up here and I'm willing to face whatever comes up.

Great, if there's one thing that'll help you, it's willingness.

Is this the way to proceed? I'm sure bigger issues will be harder to resolve

If you feel that's what you should be doing, go ahead and do that. Getting down and dirty with emotion is definitely gonna make life more pleasant hahah.

Let's make a useful (yet artificial) distinction moving forward.
There are 2 parts of your experience:
1) Direct Experience (DE, 5 senses)
2) Thought.
Anything that is not DE is thought.

Try this:
Ask: "What's here that's not a thought?" Then, LOOK. If thoughts arise, note that those are just thoughts, don't judge them or yourself. Then, return to the question. If you find yourself judging, note that the judging itself is just more thought. Then, return to the question. LOOK in the gap between question and thought. As soon as you notice that there is a gap, note that EVEN THAT NOTICING is another thought. Go back and back and back again. "What's here that's not a thought?"

With this, we're looking to realise just how much of our reality is just thought that has nothing to do with what's actually going on.

Anyway, try this out and follow your intuition. If you feel like you should be doing more emotion work now, go ahead and give that more attention. If the practice I gave you resonates and you feel like there's something there (or even better, if your mind resists doing the practice), then spend more time doing that.

[Isobel]

Let's make a useful (yet artificial) distinction moving forward.
There are 2 parts of your experience:
1) Direct Experience (DE, 5 senses)
2) Thought.
Anything that is not DE is thought.

Agreed.

"What's here that's not a thought?"

Oh dear, that was interesting. I've never really tried to look between thoughts before. It was nearly mission impossible. At times it even seemed that thoughts were trying to reduce their "sound" volume to become unnoticeable.
I don't think with images (or very very rarely). All my thinking is made of non stop chattering, commenting, judging, warning... Even when reading a book, I need to "speak" the words in my head.

I'll keep looking to see what else can be discovered.

[ty0]

Does it feel like you're the one doing all that thinking? Like all that chatter is coming from you? We don't feel as though we're "sounding" the sounds that appear, they're obviously just stuff appearing outside our control. So why can it feel like we're thinking the thoughts that appear? What if these thoughts aren't yours, and they're just appearing? The same way all the senses in DE do?

By now, your mind is probably pondering my questions and trying to find answers to them, maybe even trying to find out what I'm implying and possibly going further to imagine the consequences of what I could be implying. Notice that all that thought-stuff feels as though it's coming from a source: You.

Now that I've pointed a big fat finger, do you feel like you've been caught? What if the thoughts shut up forever? And you were only capable of experiencing DE? Would YOU still be here? Or would you cease to exist? You feel like you're this narrator/judge/commentator but when you look for the source of the thoughts, can you find one?

Keep doing the practice I gave you and see what happens. Don't worry so much about getting rid of thoughts, just try to be vigilant for the VERY FIRST thought that arises after you ask the question. The earlier you can notice that there's a thought, the earlier that thought-train gets stopped, and the earlier you can re-ask the question. How brutal can you be with this noticing? What if you could nip every thought-train in the bud so early that there's not enough time for a single sentence to form in your head before you notice and let it go? Keep going and see how alert you can be to thought

[Isobel]

Does it feel like you're the one doing all that thinking?

Most times, I can see that thoughts just appear from nowhere, but sometimes, it really feels like I'm creating them, mainly when I have to focus on a task at work or if "I decide" to do something. As I'm writing these words I realise that, even in these situations, thoughts also just appear from nowhere. It's just so habitual to think that "I" is in control. I've looked many times, and I can never find that "I' who claims to be creating thoughts.

What if the thoughts shut up forever? And you were only capable of experiencing DE? Would YOU still be here? Or would you cease to exist?

The "I" sense, the concept, would be completely gone. The body (and DE) would remain and keep doing what it has always done.

What if you could nip every thought-train in the bud so early that there's not enough time for a single sentence to form in your head before you notice and let it go?

This is fairly easy when I'm alone and when I have time to look. Again, sometimes, their sound is reduced so much that I can hardly hear them. Or they disappear completely. It's like playing Whac-A-Mole. :)
This exercise is very difficult when I'm in a conversation, or at work. I can only concentrate on one thing at a time.

[ty0]

When you do the exercise and thoughts disappear completely, what's left? Are you still there, looking at the emptiness? Try the exercise again and drop in the question "Who's noticing the thoughts?". See what comes up, but don't rack your brains trying to find an answer

[Isobel]

When you do the exercise and thoughts disappear completely, what's left?

When there are no thoughts, I don't feel emptiness. There is DE of what is. I don't know how to best describe it. It's nothing special, just the same without thoughts.

[ty0]

But are you still there when there is just DE? Are you there to experience the DE? Or is there just DE?

[Isobel]

Are you there to experience the DE? Or is there just DE?

There is just DE

[ty0]

Any doubts? Questions? Concerns? Are you still looking for something?

Is there still suffering? What is suffering? What is truth? Do you believe the thoughts appearing?

[Isobel]

Any doubts? Questions? Concerns? Are you still looking for something?

No. No more doubt. The doubts probably used to arise because I was expecting some fireworks that didn't happen.

Is there still suffering? What is suffering? What is truth? Do you believe the thoughts appearing

There hasn't been any major suffering episode in the last few days. I haven't had any ongoing loops of the same thoughts going round and round. When there's a negative thought, I manage to kill it in its tracks because I can see this is only a story. If it's accompanied by physical tension, I try to feel it completely and stay with it. It usually vanishes quickly. It doesn't last more than a few seconds.


Suffering is believing in thoughts. I can see now how in DE there is no danger.

I've watched a couple of Vince S. recordings. This is very informative and I'll try to join if I can.