Willing to see.

[learn2]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
We think that there is an ‘I’ at the centre of our experience. The ‘I’ has a body, and things happen to the ‘I’. It’s the ‘I’ that experiences the world. It’s the ‘I’ that chooses and decides. LU guiding is to help one to see that the ‘I’ is an illusion, that in truth life happens, events just unfolds, there is no one to choose or control events.

What are you looking for at LU?
Since I read Philip Kapleau’s Three Pillars of Zen many decades ago, I have undertaken many practices, seeking the sartori experiences recounted in the book. I now realise that peak experiences may not be what one should be seeking for but a shift in the ‘I’ perspective is the first step in seeing the world as it truly is. I hope to find this in LU.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have read most of the accounts in Liberation Unleashed and used Christiane Michelberger’s Finding Awakening as a guide to seeing through the illusion, but I think I have not been disciplined enough to dive deep enough by myself. I hope a guide would help me focus on the critical questions and truly seeing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have practiced with many spiritual traditions including: Zen meditation, Brahma Kumaris, Sahaj Marg, Sadhguru’s Inner Engineering, Nichiren Buddhism’s chanting and Ratu Bagus’s Shaking Yoga. In 2019, I took Jeffery Martin’s Finders Course, where we practised meditation and other techniques known to be effective in transitioning one to what he calls Fundamental Wellbeing. I did not transition but realised that I do not have self referential thoughts, very flat emotions, generally unreactive and feel fundamentally that everything is okay. I continue to sit 20 to 50 mins, 2 – 3 times a day. I practice taiji upto 2 hours a day. In my taiji practice, I am beginning to sense the stillness in the movements.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Magdalena]

Hello there,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed, and thank you for waiting. My name is Magdalena, and what is your name, please?

You’re right in saying that

peak experiences may not be what one should be seeking for but a shift in the ‘I’ perspective

Tell me: how do you imagine this shift exactly?
In other words, how will you know that it has happened?
How will your life change?
How will you change?
What will be different and what will stay the same?


You say you

realised that I do not have self referential thoughts, very flat emotions, generally unreactive and feel fundamentally that everything is okay.

So what is missing?


Please answer all my questions. Before you do, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which we will need in our conversation: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... hp?t=660

[learn2]

Hi Magdalena,
Great to hear from you and thank you for guiding me. My name is Alan. I am sorry for the delay in responding as I was away on holidays and only opened my emails today.

Tell me: how do you imagine this shift exactly?
In other words, how will you know that it has happened?

I was told that because I still have a sense that I have control, that my 'I' perspective is still present. So I imagine that when I shift, I would clearly see life unfolding daily without any control on my part.

How will your life change?

As I do not have self referential thoughts, I rarely think about the past or the future. Looking back, I can see that major events in my life, like the university I went to, the medical studies I landed up doing, my marriage and my career were events that just unfolded. I imagine that when I shift, I would be living more in the present, that I would be less anxious about being on time and less concerned about how day to day events unfold.

How will you change?

I will be even more relaxed and maybe the physical tension that I hold in my body will be much reduced.

What will be different and what will stay the same?

There will be greater ease in life. However life will always have its minor and major challenges, but there will be greater equanimity.

So what is missing?

I generally do not react but still reacting to my life partner. We get along great, but occasionally I feel there is slight annoyance arising by what is said. However, this does not generally lead to any verbal reactions. These reactions do seem to be reducing over the last few years after participating in the Finders Course, but I wonder when the 'I' is seen through, that I will not react anymore, or maybe that will only occur when I see through fetters 4 and 5.

Many thanks for your questions.

Alan

[Magdalena]

Hello, Alan,

Nice to meet you. :-)

I am sorry for the delay in responding as I was away on holidays and only opened my emails today.

No problem.

I imagine that when I shift, I would clearly see life unfolding daily without any control on my part. … Looking back, I can see that major events in my life, like the university I went to, the medical studies I landed up doing, my marriage and my career were events that just unfolded.

So when/how exactly do you see being in control of your life NOW?

I imagine that when I shift, I would be living more in the present, that I would be less anxious about being on time and less concerned about how day to day events unfold.

So, if you're in control, why don't "you" simply "shift" and live more in the present etc. - RIGHT NOW?

I generally do not react but still reacting to my life partner. We get along great, but occasionally I feel there is slight annoyance arising by what is said.

If you are in control, why not simply choose to not react to what is heard and not be annoyed?
You can do that, right?

Many thanks for your questions.

You’re very welcome.

[learn2]

Hi Magdalena,

So when/how exactly do you see being in control of your life NOW?

I am in control in so far as I can decide whether and when to go out, whether to go away on holidays, and plan the itinerary, where to stay and what and where to have meals. I am in control of what time to arrive for appointments. I am not in control of what my life partner wants to do, what my family members want to do or what happens to them. I am not in control of what others do and how others want to drive. So I am very accepting of situations that I have no control over.

So, if you're in control, why don't "you" simply "shift" and live more in the present etc. - RIGHT NOW?

I think I have control over certain things as above. But I don't have control over feeling anxious, over being concerned about how day to day events turn out. I have no control of my thoughts, and can't just switch them off. But I have not tried to simply shift to live more in the present. Maybe I should try doing so.

If you are in control, why not simply choose to not react to what is heard and not be annoyed?
You can do that, right?

There are certainly times when what I used to react to is said and it just passes by, without eliciting any reaction. If I am aware that I am not going to like what will be said, I indeed can choose not to react. But it is usually the times that I am off guard that I react. Will certainly try to simply choose not to react as often as I can.

Alan

[Magdalena]

Hello Alan,

I am in control in so far as I can decide whether and when to go out, whether to go away on holidays, and plan the itinerary, where to stay and what and where to have meals. I am in control of what time to arrive for appointments.

Oh really? Are you sure?

Here’s two simple experiments for you.
Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down... and up … and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a “controller” of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual ("me") or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or
down?

Drinks Exercise
The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making “choices” is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.
Here's what’s needed: a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.
Preparation: Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Now, sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:
1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions (remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an "I" which is doing
the “choosing” – which controls the outcome):
In step 1, when thinking about their respective qualities, did you “choose” the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you “choose” these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you “choose” this sequence of event? Did you “choose” to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the “choosing”? Have you seen this function in action?

I am not in control of what my life partner wants to do, what my family members want to do or what happens to them. I am not in control of what others do and how others want to drive. So I am very accepting of situations that I have no control over.

Sure, how could you possibly control what other people do or say? Just as much as other people can control what you do or say – despite any appearances to the contrary.

But I have not tried to simply shift to live more in the present. Maybe I should try doing so.

Sounds like a good idea – why not try it out as an experiment? ;) Just observe the process carefully, as in the previous exercises, and tell me what you find.

Will certainly try to simply choose not to react as often as I can.

As above. Experiment, watch closely, and tell me what you find.


Happy experimenting. ;-)

[learn2]

Hi Magdalena,

Oh really? Are you sure?

I should have said that I feel I have control. I have demonstrated to myself that I don't make choices, doing the 'think of a number up to 100'. Clearly the number I think off just popped up and I have no control over it.

How is the movement controlled?

It seems to be happening on its own.

Does a thought control it?

I can think the thought 'turn' and it does not turn. So its not controlled by thought.

Can a “controller” of any description be located?

No controller can be located.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

The hand can stay still or turn and just like the random number just popping up, the hand can turn, there is no decision made hence there is no decision point to be found.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

The right hand was used out of habit/tendency to use the right hand. There was no choice being made.

Can you find a separate individual ("me") or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or
down?

There is no 'I' that can be found that chose to turn the palm.

In step 1, when thinking about their respective qualities, did you “choose” the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you “choose” these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities and preferences just popped up by themselves. I did not choose. I can see that. I need to see that with everything.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you “choose” this sequence of event? Did you “choose” to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the “choosing”? Have you seen this function in action?

No, I did not choose for the preferences to take a back seat whilst the numbers came to the fore. I did not choose to shut down the preferences. No there is no direct experience of a 'choosing' function. Have not seen this function in action.

I can see that all actions just occurs, we then ascribe it to a choice made by the 'I'. I feel I can shift into the perspective that life is just unfolding with no 'I', but not sure it can be maintained in challenging periods.

Sounds like a good idea – why not try it out as an experiment? ;) Just observe the process carefully, as in the previous exercises, and tell me what you find.

Will certainly try it and with the perspective that life is just unfolding, no choices being made, no one making choices. Will report how it goes over the next few days.

As above. Experiment, watch closely, and tell me what you find.

I can experiment with choosing not to react, but opportunities are not that frequent. I suspect that if I am more in moment and just seeing life unfolding, it will also put me in a non reactive state.

Thank you for your help in questioning my sense of control.

Alan

[Magdalena]

Lovely, thanks for experimenting. 😉

I feel I can shift into the perspective that life is just unfolding with no 'I', but not sure it can be maintained in challenging periods.

It's not really about shifting into anything - it's simply about observing how things are in daily life, just as you did with the hand movements and the choosing of drinks.

Looking forward to hearing what is observed in whatever situations present themselves.
Relax, enjoy yourself, and keep watching. 🙂🙂🙂

[learn2]

Hi Magdalena,

There were no situations that would elicit a reaction so far. So will continue to watch out for when they arise.

it's simply about observing how things are in daily life

Yesterday, took car for servicing, chatted 2 hours with friend and did a bit of gardening and usual exercises. Was looking for opportunities to watch. This morning when making my first drink could see the actions sort of on autopilot. I have experienced this before on a couple of occasions after 1.5 hrs of taiji practice. I have a similar experience of the body moving in autopilot when I blur my vision a little. Will continue to find more opportunities to watch.

Many thanks.

Alan

[Magdalena]

Hello Alan,

Good to hear from you. 😉
Keep watching - and do share if anything interesting comes up.

[Magdalena]

Hey Alan,
How are you doing?

[learn2]

Hi Magdalena,

I am continuing to watch. When I take time to look, I don't find the thinker, decider, controller and the agent that moves the body. But things do not generally feel any different to before except maybe I am a little less reactive. So far, since we started our conversation, I have not reacted to what was said. I was out for lunch with a friend who expressed some contrary views which I just let float pass. I think the more I look for and not finding the controller, the less I feel a sense of having control.

Alan

[Magdalena]

Sounds good to me. ;-)

Just an idea - would you like to have a go at our "final" questions to see if there's anything else for us to look into at this point?

[learn2]

Hi Magdalena,

Happy to have the final questions, if you think I am ready for them.

Alan

[Magdalena]

So, here goes.

Please answer all the questions from your current seeing, without going into theoretical concepts.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe
- decision,
- intention,
- free will,
- choice and control.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?