10 years of meditation & no insight

[ElliottM]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Intellectually at least, I understand and accept that self is ultimately no more than a thought. "I" is a conceptual label appended to raw experience by the mind that implies a separation of perception into perceiver and perceived, but when looked for there is no actual thing that can be called a self to be found anywhere in any experience.

What are you looking for at LU?
Assistance and guidance to bridge the gap between intellectual and experiential understanding of no-self. I can logically and conceptually follow the explanation of no-self and it makes perfect sense, but presently that understanding makes no actual change to my lived experience where awareness is *felt* to have a center point, a common subject to which all other objects of perception relate in some way whether as a mental conceptual relationship or just as distance/direction from "here" to "there". I understand that this is not to be gotten rid of per se, but seen through as constructed but I'm unsure how that seeing is supposed to actually happen and whether I'm even "looking" in the right way

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Hopefully that someone can see through an account of my experiences and show me where my own blind spots and assumptions are, and point me effectively to resolving this infuriating paradox. The thought occurs that "i know" that this self business is an illusion, so why doesn't it "work" when I look and find nothing, why does the illusion reassert itself in every moment? Trying to inquire into myself on this point the best answer I could come up with was a deep frustration and "I DONT KNOW" so I guess I need help from someone who *does* know, experientially, because trying to get through it myself with instruction from books and videos hasn't cut it. And I have to be honest and admit that at this point I don't believe that it's going to, even if I keep up this same failed pattern for another 10 years. There is despair and frustration and fear and confusion and the sense that there *IS* an end to all this mess but that I just can't reach it. I want out. Please.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
A long history of various mediation practices primarily in a buddhist context, with an explicit intention towards attaining stream entry/awakening/no-self realisation, beginning at least 10 years ago. Most of that initial period was focued on mahasi noting-style vipassana, but formal practice was sporadic. Last 4 years have been much more serious with 1-2 hours seated meditation per day every day, and most of that poured into TMI style mindfulness of breathing. There was a sense that my previous insight practice was pretty shaky and ineffective because I didn't have a stable basis of concentration for applying the techniques described so I went back to basics attempting to first reach stable access concentration as a reliable platform for insight practice - and failed. After years of sincere, sustained daily effort, it wouldn't be quite fair to say *no* improvements have been seen in that time, but still beset by distractions and unstable attention during seated meditation and more importantly scarce little practical difference is seen in the way i live real world day to day life. I might be getting a bit better at directing and sustaining my attention which is nice but not the actual goal which still feels a million miles away. I've also done some self inquiry practices per Angelo Dilullo, not to the same extent but I have trouble really confirming that I'm getting anywhere with it - not sure what I'm meant to be seeing exactly, when I've already accepted that I'm not actually going to find anything when I look for who am i/who is perceiving/who is thinking, and this practice leads to a near constant stream of doubt-thoughts about whether I'm "doing it right"

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[ty0]

Hi Elliott!

Welcome to LU. I'm Tyler and I hope you've read the LU disclaimer and FAQ.

I can logically and conceptually follow the explanation of no-self and it makes perfect sense, but presently that understanding makes no actual change to my lived experience where awareness is *felt* to have a center point

Intellectual VS experiential understanding of no-self boils down to a subtle difference: Believing that there is no self VS not believing that there is or is not a self.
Though you have looked for the self and not found it, your mind has made the conclusion that "there is no real, inherent self". "There is a self" and "There is no self" are just two sides of the same belief coin, neither of which having any more inherent truth than the other. This is ultimately a path of tearing down beliefs, so I hope I can point you in the right direction.

Hopefully that someone can see through an account of my experiences and show me where my own blind spots and assumptions are

It seems to me like your many years of practice have led to the accumulation of lots of spiritual knowledge, and I'd like to invite you to let all of that go. Though this knowledge is spiritual, it does not make it any more true than religious knowledge, scientific knowledge, philosophical knowledge or any kind of knowledge.

"i know" that this self business is an illusion

It would be worthwhile to examine the belief that this self business is an illusion. How do you know that there is no self? Why do you believe that the self is an illusion?

Trying to inquire into myself on this point the best answer I could come up with was a deep frustration and "I DONT KNOW"

Frustration is amazing. Negative emotions are basically shoving your strongly held beliefs in your face. When you feel negative emotions, inquire WHY you feel this emotion. What thought is being believed in that causes you to feel this emotion? If/After you've identified the belief, just feel fully into the emotion without trying to avoid it with distraction or even inquiry.

There is despair and frustration and fear and confusion and the sense that there *IS* an end to all this mess but that I just can't reach it.

Here's an inquiry for you. Sit with the mantra "I'm never gonna be done with this mess" and repeat that over and over. Feel the despair and helplessness and keep egging it on with the mantra. Let it intensify and feel everything it makes you feel. When the emotions lose their potency, ask yourself if the mantra itself holds any truth or if it's just another thought that you're believing. Then, you can inquire into the deeper beliefs that allow this one to form in the first place if you choose to.

You've done loads of meditation and seen it not go anywhere. Try a combination of this emotion work (whenever you feel strong emotions) and self inquiry. You seem to believe that you somehow need to be able to steady your mind/attention to do this work, but I want to propose that that could just be another bit of spiritual knowledge you've picked up. In my experience, insight leads to the calming of the mind, and less so the other way around, but don't take my word for gospel.

I've also done some self inquiry practices per Angelo Dilullo, not to the same extent but I have trouble really confirming that I'm getting anywhere with it - not sure what I'm meant to be seeing exactly, when I've already accepted that I'm not actually going to find anything when I look for who am i/who is perceiving/who is thinking, and this practice leads to a near constant stream of doubt-thoughts about whether I'm "doing it right"

On top of the emotion work I've 'prescribed' you, I think it would also be valuable for you to practise self inquiry. The fact that self inquiry makes you feel doubt and you seem to have some sort of resistance to the practice means that it will probably be very helpful for you. There are many deeply held beliefs here to unpack which self inquiry tends to dig up.

Here's a simple method:
1) Ask in your mind: "What's the next thought?"
2) When you notice something, recognise that it is just a thought and nothing more. If the thought causes frustration or doubt, such as "I'm not getting anywhere with this" or "Am i doing this right?", recognise that it is just another thought. No matter how real a thought feels and no matter how much emotion it invokes, recognise that it is just a thought and nothing more.
3) Repeat steps 1-2

Give the emotion work and self-inquiry a go and let me know how that works out for ya (difficulties, resistance, whatever). You may find that they tie into and overlap with each other. Happy inquiring buddy :)

have fun,
Tyler

[ElliottM]

Thanks for replying & assisting me Tyler, I'll get right on the emotion & inquiry work you've suggested to try. It rings true that there is major resistance to feeling emotion here and that's almost certainly a signal thats exactly where work needs to be done, it's in the last place you (want to) look as they say... Just as a preliminary I'm going to read and draft a reply to some of these initial comments right now so I can post my reflexive reaction without a ton of stewing over it and analysing and editing my thoughts, then I'll try the exercises and report my experiences

Intellectual VS experiential understanding of no-self boils down to a subtle difference: Believing that there is no self VS not believing that there is or is not a self.
Though you have looked for the self and not found it, your mind has made the conclusion that "there is no real, inherent self". "There is a self" and "There is no self" are just two sides of the same belief coin, neither of which having any more inherent truth than the other.

Ah! Right, yes, obvious when pointed out but something i skipped right over consciously - "the thing this thought says is not the truth" does not mean "the opposite of what this thought says is therefore the truth". A thought doesn't have an innate truth value in itself one way or the other

It seems to me like your many years of practice have led to the accumulation of lots of spiritual knowledge, and I'd like to invite you to let all of that go. Though this knowledge is spiritual, it does not make it any more true than religious knowledge, scientific knowledge, philosophical knowledge or any kind of knowledge.

Sure, it hasn't gotten me anywhere as it is, let it go. I'll do my best to catch any assumptions made on the basis of prior knowledge or experience in meditation, but if they do inevitably leak through go ahead and point them out and challenge me.

It would be worthwhile to examine the belief that this self business is an illusion. How do you know that there is no self? Why do you believe that the self is an illusion?

Yes you're right that this is just a belief.. which is to say, a thought. The thought arises: "I know this" but that thought doesn't have a truth value.. thinking the thought "i know" is not the same as knowing, right now, which i have to admit i don't. it is inferred from previous beliefs and experiences.. that I also don't actually know are true in themselves. The primary thought that underlies this assumption feels like something along the lines of "IF there was this thing at the center of literally every experience ever, then it ought to be bloody obvious and easy to find no?" coupled with the experience of looking extensively and not finding this obvious thing, the conclusion/thought arises that "this thing does not exist". There are numerous assumptions there, that it would necessarily be obvious and easy to notice because i think it should be, that not finding it is the same thing as it not being there, that my assumed definition of what it would be or look like is coherent enough to even test meaningfully let alone be correct. A feeling of confusion arises considering this, there are subtle thoughts that seem to be pushing right back the other way that i've just come from "oh so you mean there is a self then?" which is an obvious trap. This feels like an automatic tendency exists to want to pick a position and declare it as "this is so" one way or the other, the certainty is felt as "good/useful" regardless of the actual truth of the thing. Ambiguity/ignorance is felt to be uncomfortable and threatening. Then the thought arose "How far back does this chain go then? If it's assumptions all the way down is it possible to know that literally any thought at all that i have is true?". Truth must exist - either the self is, or it is not, and that remains the case regardless of any thoughts about it. But is it possible to know which way things are (in any context) with absolute certainty? In that sense does it even matter what I think about it, or anything else? Truthfully I give that a resounding "I don't know" for the time being.

Frustration is amazing. Negative emotions are basically shoving your strongly held beliefs in your face. When you feel negative emotions, inquire WHY you feel this emotion. What thought is being believed in that causes you to feel this emotion? If/After you've identified the belief, just feel fully into the emotion without trying to avoid it with distraction or even inquiry.

An answer leapt to mind here, I want to sit with it again when these emotions are actually present to get a "live read" so to speak, but I still want to get written down how it appeared as a reaction first - the first association mind made when reading this was the thought that the belief is "i don't like it, this shouldn't be happening". oh shit, well actually taking the step of writing that out just made strong emotion come up, so lets go right now. i felt the urge to highlight underline emphasise that last part to the max as soon as i saw it written - there is something here that is saying NO NO NO at the top of its proverbial lungs. dont like it. dont want it. not this. its not right. its not fair. get it away from me. get me away from it. NO. i don't know what this emotional welling up is even in relation to, right this second. i wasn't contemplating any particular emotional experience or situation when i wrote that up, not even from memory, but it boiled over nonetheless. physically, eyes screwing up and watering just a bit, a couple of hacking laugh-sobs out of nowhere, watering mouth, nervous energy in the chest and gut, muscles tensing as if awaiting a blow. No actual thought explanation "i'm upset about X" not even "i'm upset", not even a labeling of these happenings as any specific emotion, just apparently-random bursts of feeling leaking out in the body.

I'll try this some more when the emotions come up, whatever it was trying to feel into the physicality of it just now was like chasing smoke, no sooner did attention fall on a given part of it than it unravelled and disappeared, there wasn't anything there long enough to settle in and be with.

---------------------

Made a first attempt at sitting with that statement as a mantra like you suggested - i'm vomiting this out in a stream of consciousness to try and capture everything that happened while it's still bleeding raw, just trying to paint a picture of the thoughts and feelings that were present as the exercise progressed, no analysis save that which was already happening right there at the time.

-Decide to go do the mantra practice, there's resistance already. Tingling in the eyes, giddy nervousness. Thoughts of reasons that I can and should do this later instead arise. Dog needs to be fed, lets feed the dog. Oh that's resistance, I should go back to the computer and write that down right now so I don't forget to mention it.. ok no, just go sit down just do this.
-set the 1hr meditation timer out of habit but intending to just let it run as short/long as needed for the emotions to lose their potency and inquire, no commitment of "i must sit until the bell goes because that's how you do it right" this time, i will be done when its done. by the timer it took 30 minutes for the rest of this to play out
-sitting, sitting - "i'm never going to get out of this mess". repeat. repeat. feel into it.
-sadness, sadness, sadness. mental self-image of crying, suffering face. despair.. acceptance? or resignation?
-watering eyes, stifled sobs. is this "real" sadness or is it just what you think youre supposed to feel? can you even feel sadness? this isn't "proper" crying, you're not letting go, you can't let go. this is fake.
-sad sad just sadness where is fear? where is anger? "you're never getting out of this mess" and why the fuck am i not angry about that?
-distractions arise here and there, the mantra continues on auto, as attention wanders distortions in the phrase occur with no immediately obvious prompting. "i'm never getting out of this mess. i'm never letting you go. i'm never getting out of this mess. this is now and forever."
-a thin thread of fear is sensed, it's inside the sadness. the sadness encloses it in the felt bodyspace like a cocoon, concealing it. the fear says "yeah, that might be true". fear of feeling helpless. the fear disappear/closes up and only the sadness is perceivable again. subtle thought impressions: sadness is tolerable, fear is not. just accept it as true and be sad about it, better that than the fear and the not knowing
-no come back, why not feel the fear? where is it? where did it go. look. show me fear. i'll listen to you.
-stilling felt in the body. energy patterns in the body. just energy. it's not an unpleasant feeling. not moving from place to place in the body, just there all over, buzzing away and doing its thing. mind-images of the face that still suggest "sad" but without a body experience that feels quite like it matches that label. maybe it's emotion, maybe it's just sensation. some things are happening in the body right now, ok.
-ok, quite still now. haven't felt sadness as sadness for a bit. the mantra continues on. are we done with emotion for now? or could that fear maybe show itself to me again now? its safe.
-a pattern emerges in the body, stomach to front of head, down the arms. is this fear? i don't know. it's sensation. it trembles.
-"you're never getting out of this mess AND HOW FUCKING DARE YOU THINK YOU COULD YOU DONT DESERVE IT "
jesus christ. crying out in shock, sobbing, pitching forward and spitting out a mouthful like im going to be sick. gasping, crying. need to stop. dont want this. have to write it down while its fresh. more sobs and gasps typing it out. more reading it back again. more intense even, but still stifled, constrained. feels like it cant get out. jesus.

near an hour later now, composing myself somewhat at least. each time i read that again the tears feel like they're about to burst out. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU THINK YOU COULD YOU DONT DESERVE IT what even is that, that didn't feel like "me" saying it, how long has that been in there? i've had plenty of unpleasant meditation experiences, even to the point of having to stand up and walk away but i dont think ive ever felt shaken like this before. Well that surely shattered the unexamined expectations I was unconsciously carrying into it - "this is going to go exactly as described and the bad emotions will happen and then go away and then there will be equanimity and then i'll inquire and see that statement was a mind created belief and ill be free of it, all neatly tied up." Yeah, not quite. I realise i quit out and didn't actually end up inquiring about the nature of the thought "i'm never going to get out of this mess", and I strongly suspect you're going to point me right back to looking this whole thing in the face again so i'm going to pick that up tomorrow. Right now I need a breather, do the mundane life things, there's dinner to be made and cleaning up to be done and my wife will be home from work soon and probably wouldn't appreciate an emotional wreck dumped on her first thing through the door. Im going to take up the (hopefully gentler..) inquiry practice later this evening, I'll update how that goes.

Thanks again for helping me. I really dont think i expected.. well, whatever this is, so soon at least. 10 years observing the workings of the mind and thinking im an old hand at this being-with-emotions stuff and yet half an hour and I'm having a meltdown. Well, it's got to be dragged out into the light one way or another I guess, the only way out is through. Lets keep going.

[ty0]

Hi Elliott,

Lots of good stuff here. Loving the willingness to look where it's the most icky.

This feels like an automatic tendency exists to want to pick a position and declare it as "this is so" one way or the other

Yep great catch, you'll start to notice this tendency more and more and that's all you can really do about it while it weakens over time. Stay vigilant for when you feel like you're making a conclusion, or when you notice an emotional reaction when someone says something contradictory to what you believe.

Then the thought arose "How far back does this chain go then?

All the way buddy. All the way down to truth and beyond.

Truth must exist - either the self is, or it is not, and that remains the case regardless of any thoughts about it.

Here's a big assumption. Why must truth exist? Who taught you that? When did you learn that? What is truth and what does it mean for something to be true? Again, don't think that I'm telling you truth doesn't exist, but believing that it does is just that, a belief.

You've written a lot about your experience doing emotion work and it was such a joy to read. Please continue with this raw, unfiltered writing style because it gives me the best understanding of your experience and it's honestly just really entertaining to read! For now, I don't have any comments on your experience except keep it up and let it swallow you deeper. Let your guard down and let the emotions consume you. Even when you resist the emotions, recognise that the resistance is just another feeling with a belief. Don't worry about doing any of this practice with a timer and don't feel obligated to do it.

It's going to take a bit of feeling and cleaning up before you have the capacity/facility to see through deeply held beliefs but don't get discouraged. I'm sure you can sense that you are finally making some "progress" because of the effects these practices are having on your mind. The inquiry practice is supposed to be gentler, yes, but you may find the emotion work spilling over into inquiry sometimes. If that occurs, don't reject the emotion, it just wants to be expressed at that time and the only thing you can do (if you can do anything at all) is to let it be and not obstruct it.

By the way, what country/time zone are you in? We seem to have a similar evening/dinner time.

Anywho, I hope you continue with emotion work and inquiry and see where that leads you. Feel free to write an update whenever you feel something noteworthy has happened, if you have a question, or if you just want to express something. I'll look forward hearing how the practice goes for you soon :)

have fun,
Tyler

[ElliottM]

Thank you Tyler :) the support really helps.

The inquiry practice is supposed to be gentler, yes, but you may find the emotion work spilling over into inquiry sometimes. If that occurs, don't reject the emotion, it just wants to be expressed at that time and the only thing you can do (if you can do anything at all) is to let it be and not obstruct it.

This was largely my experience last night. Thoughts kept going back to memories of my earlier emotional practice that afternoon - just a thought. I really, really don't want to look at that again right now - just a thought. Oh god why did i write all that drivel i should have thought and considered and edited instead of rushing it out - just a thought. I said/thought/felt/wrote the wrong thing it's wrong i'm wrong i'm gonna be judged - just a thought. Hard to keep this up, getting swept up into the emotion and distraction and entertaining a long series of thoughts while i'm "supposed" to be inquiring (judgement thought) but awareness returns sooner or later, however long that chain of thought was dont bother trying to go back and parse the whole thing over again write it all off as just one thought.

(you're not very good at this - just a thought)

Here's a big assumption. Why must truth exist? Who taught you that? When did you learn that? What is truth and what does it mean for something to be true? Again, don't think that I'm telling you truth doesn't exist, but believing that it does is just that, a belief.

Hm. Opened my mouth to answer confidently and can't find it. What even is truth? How to fit this into words.
There is certain way that things are, - wait is that right? What does "a certain way" even mean?
Ok, try simpler. Things are happening. There are happenings occurring? Every way i try and phrase this feels like it has holes in it, a lack of a solid irrefutable definition of some term or some way the concept can be flipped so it's untrue from another perspective (set of assumptions)
Perception is happening. Whatever this is *gesturing broadly to all of reality* it isn't null. Something is being known by something. Maybe no more can be meaningfully said about it, not that this sounds particularly meaningful either in the hearing of it. Being is. IT IS, for whatever value/label you care to apply to "IT" after the fact. That's true? That IS whether you make the sound "TRUE" with your mouth/mind or not.


I've started taking notes of my thoughts/emotions as they strike me if it seems i should notice something. I don't know if they're important or even relevant but writing seems to help even if it's just to prompt me to argue with what i've just written. Funny I've been strongly averse to writing/journalling anything about my practice for basically forever. That's not for me, I thought. Now I've finally started it's like a dam broke and this all needs to spill out onto a page uncontrolled.

There's been a bit of dam breaking the last few days. Finally making the leap to register here instead of putting it off as something I'll definitely get around to, later, if I don't work it out this awakening thing by myself by [ever shifting deadline] then ill definitely seek help. I've done this many, many times over the years. Not LU specifically but in the generic "i'll find someone to help me... if this next new technique doesn't do it for me". And there's always another technique, another conceptual framework, another map. Turning my back on that felt like totally giving up in a sense, like I've finally admitted more of the same just isn't going to help. I can't do it by myself. Surrender. Fear, oh so much fear. Filling out that form, watching my thread go up, panic seeing a reply. But also relief. It's in motion, I can't stop it. You're going to be seen and known at last and whatever you fear, whatever is going to come of that, you can't prevent it now. You're giving up the conceit of being in control so what else can you do now but jump in with both feet and say whatever comes, comes.

I'm sure you can sense that you are finally making some "progress" because of the effects these practices are having on your mind.

That's an understatement for sure :) I was so bloody shocked. I was excited, curious, enthusiastic - jump in, I'm gonna get somewhere, I've made the decision and now finally something is going to CHANGE!

Wait, no, not like that, fuck.

I said it but I didn't believe it. Not really. There was still a belief - obvious in hindsight - that things literally can't just happen like that. It's slow, it's hard work, it's going to take time, softly softly gradual progress... the chain of qualifiers continues unnoticed and secretly terminates in "so basically, you can expect nothing will actually happen in reality". That'll show me won't it.

Some miscellaneous notes, as much for myself as anything but it helps to document them here. The urge to consider and analyse and edit and shape and project an identity in writing is powerful (i reworded this sentence twice) so I'm just gonna try and drop this with minimal translation from my shorthand scrawl and just post it and lock it in

A trip to the grocery store
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Still feeling raw, fragile, on edge from yesterday. waiting for something to fall. but with a feeling of challenge. "im going outside and bearing my bleeding heart to the world and i dare you to stab me. there's *real* fear here.that's fine, you can feel fear. ignore the thoughts that seem to suggest you're gonna die. do it anyway.

lots of practice related judgement thoughts while driving and shopping - not trying hard enough, not consistent enough, not taking it seriously enough, didn't read it thoroughly enough, don't understand it well enough, every moment should be practice, you're wasting time. need to do more, write more, update more - just a thought just a thought just a thought.

i don't believe that's "just a thought" - just a thought.
i don't believe "i dont believe that's just a thought is just a thought" - just a thought
oh awesome, are we gonna spin round this stupid circle all goddamn day? just a thought

forget my trolley coin in the car and have to walk all the way back to get it - annoyance, judgement, "i shouldn't have forgotten that i said "remember that" to myself before i left the house". well it just happened, you didn't actively decide "nah actually i'm gonna forget that" so what exactly are you annoyed at? i don't know, the thing happened i just dont like it

the dog food we usually get is out of stock "they should have refilled that this always happens" - does it really *always* happen? you know she'll eat the other food she doesn't care so why do you, it's fine

"Hi how are you doing today" "I'm good thanks how about you?" wait that was sincere? it was a reflexive answer but not reflexive in the usual automatic ritual way, it just felt like an unscripted un-considered reponse that was totally true. a bit stunned. how can that be true? have i not just been wandering around in my head the last half hour lamenting how raw and teary and frightened i feel? it's a dumb rote politeness theyre obliged to say to everyone why does it feel like i wanna cry out of gratitude for this

driving home - stopping at a busy intersection to let an elderly lady cross all the way over, moving slowly. the light is changing. the people behind me aren't gonna get through. they're gonna be pissed off (how can you know that? i don't think anyone is much into running over old ladies, and why would it matter even if it were true?)

this is a tasty bagel. these strawberries are just perfect. right now, i'm not feeling bad (is that guilt? attachment to suffering and judgement for not feeling bad like it's a merit badge that proves you're doing something right?)

Thoughts on fear
--------------------------
Why couldn't i feel fear when i looked for it? I know it's there -
How do you know it's there? I've seen it, felt it, noticed it behind so very many of my actions. Fear of failure, fear of judgement, fear of what people will think, fear that i'm not going to make it, that i'm uniquely incapable of doing this, I've become quite good at identifying motivations-
but identifying them didn't change how you acted did it?
AH but no, fear was noticed but NOT felt. I see that action is motivated by fear, yes well done me, good job on spotting that. Anyway next thought now please, any thought, see I'm not getting attached I'm not getting stuck moving on now it's just a feeling i'm letting it go (IT is just a feeling but THIS is a THOUGHT about the feeling and thats where your attention is so it doesn't have to go to the feeling)..

[ty0]

Being is. IT IS, for whatever value/label you care to apply to "IT" after the fact. That's true? That IS whether you make the sound "TRUE" with your mouth/mind or not.

What does "is" mean? Why IS it? If we take 'it' to mean the sensory information from the 5 senses, can we say/know anything about it without referring to the mind? Does anything in your 5 sense fields tell you that it is? Or do you have to refer to your mind to make a sort-of inference "There's experience right now, so it IS"? Does 'it' even be or not be? Is being just a concept? 'It' doesn't give a single shit what anyone has to say about 'it'. Can 'it' hold any truth or falseness? How can anything true be said about 'it', even that it IS, if truth and 'is-ing' are just concepts that don't have any bearing on 'it'? Does a newborn baby know that it is?

I'm pointing you to question the fundamental beliefs that allow any thought to be believed or any philosophising to occur. These beliefs are so deep that you take them at face value to be hard facts about reality, and it seems like your world couldn't even exist without them. Anyway, this investigation may be a bit too deep to be of use to you at this point in time, so let's move on to what's going on with you.

Please continue with this journalling and DO NOT go back to edit what you vomit out. Who gives a shit what you write and what people will think of you? This is a sort of 'practice' by itself that will act as a catalyst to your emotion work and self-inquiry (Jed McKenna calls it 'Spiritual Autolysis' if you wanna Google it. I know, what a fancy name, right?). If you look back at the things you wrote a week ago and think "Wow how could I have believed in that nonsense I wrote?", that's a glaring indicator of "progress".

Judgement is just that, judgement. The more you catch it, the less heavy it will feel over time. Be patient, or don't be patient, it doesn't really matter. I won't even ask you not to have expectations, because you surely have expectations. The best you can do is recognise that they're expectations which are just thoughts in the end. I won't even ask you not to feel guilty for not spending more time doing the practices, that's just another story with beliefs that you can investigate. If you practise or not, if you feel guilty or not, if you avoid fear or not, this will all unfold and there's nothing you can really do to stop the process after it's begun. All you can do is delay the inevitable, which could sound dreadful or relieving depending on how you look at it.

As always, enjoy the exploration and keep it up. It's so damn fascinating, isn't it?

[ElliottM]

What does "is" mean? Why IS it? If we take 'it' to mean the sensory information from the 5 senses, can we say/know anything about it without referring to the mind? Does anything in your 5 sense fields tell you that it is? Or do you have to refer to your mind to make a sort-of inference "There's experience right now, so it IS"? Does 'it' even be or not be? Is being just a concept? 'It' doesn't give a single shit what anyone has to say about 'it'. Can 'it' hold any truth or falseness? How can anything true be said about 'it', even that it IS, if truth and 'is-ing' are just concepts that don't have any bearing on 'it'? Does a newborn baby know that it is?

I read this last night and ended up turning it over in my mind for hours after i went to bed, then immediately again when i woke up. Now i've got a headache ("headaches are bad" is a belief? it must be. i don't know why but that fact annoys the hell out of me). Feel a need to get out some tangled and messy response to this which surely stands further refinement, but if i'm still heading in totally the wrong direction and you think i should just drop it for now i can do that

I'm trying to language this problem, can't be done. There's no definition precise and unambiguous enough to capture the breadth of reality, and definitions are always labels anyway - which are thoughts, which can't be innately true - nothing can be communicated without them which means nothing true can be communicated. Not communicable isn't the same as not knowable but I can't rely on anything received or transmitted as truth. Ok. All language is a pointer at best to immediate experience. Muddied further by the baggage of the conventional definition of "Truth" - it's true in the ultimate sense that monday doesn't exist, there is no such thing as monday-ness to be found in reality, but if i offer this pearl of wisdom to my boss as the reason i didn't come in my ass is still getting fired and that's the truth.

Let's try it this way: If the hypothesis at the top of this is "the self isn't real" then we've admitted the categories of real and not real, abstractions sure but we have to accept a degree of abstraction to talk about this (or anything else!) at all. So what do *I* know-not-think is real? A newborn baby doesn't know that "it is", that requires a library of self-referential thought symbols it doesn't have yet, at the very least is and is-not. "What does a baby know" is the same question as "what do I know, without recourse to thoughts". SO. What do I know. I know the experience of the sense fields. I know the experience of seeing - to call it "Seeing" requires a thought, requires learning a symbol from someone and applying it mentally to this experience. But call it "Seeing", call it "ham sandwich", don't call it anything at all - the experience of seeing is still there whether i'm conceptualising it, describing it, talking about it to someone or no. The visual field is there, absent any thoughts about it, absent any do-ing of it or to it, it's just there. The contents of seeing may not be real - the house around me, the trees and sky outside, could all be an elaborate hallucination piped through a computer to a brain in a jar, but the seeing itself is irrefutable. Sectioning out bits of it into "parts" or "objects" requires thinking and labeling but it just being there as raw sense experience doesn't. Who taught me this? Nobody, I can verify it directly in my own experience in this very instant, now and always. Same goes for the other sense fields, including thought - the experience of thinking a thought is real even if the content of the thought isn't. Sights are seen, sounds are heard, thoughts are thunk.

And I don't know where to go from there. None of those words even mean anything, "meaning" is a concept. The fact of seeing remains here in my experience, even if i can't prove or even communicate that to anyone else - that's what i point to when using the words "seeing is". Don't think there's any further I can go with this right now so I'll let it and my headache rest in ambiguity for the time being. Here's a dump of the rest of yesterday's notes. Haven't re-read over them yet, just blind copying from my notepad

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urge to be done with it. done with emotions. get it out, break the dam, pour all this pain out rip off this bandaid. aversion to letting it go at its own pace. even trying to control surrendering - surrender faster! better! NOW!

emotions aren't going anywhere. they're never going to go away and be "done". this will always be with you, it's a fact of life. (this is also a belief? feels true. feels really true. can i just suspend judgement on that? it's still a thought)

"getting late in the day need to sit and practice" wait, no i don't actually *need* to do that. huh that's kind of a relief, been going so hard for so long i didn't realise meditation was creeping more and more towards being an obligation not an exploration. put in the daily grind and eventually enlightenment will fall out. why dont i just not do that today and not try to justify it. work on a craft project instead. guilt about not doing it. guilt about feeling guilty about it (thats crazy (judgement thought))

take the dog outside, watch her sniffing around all over the place, cmon hurry up and pee already so i can go.. what, exactly? laugh. sit my ass down in the sun and just watch her sniff. love this dog. thought returns "ok now this really is taking too long" sure, anyway keep waiting. she don't understand hurry up so what are you gonna do about it anyway?

my mind is like a cranky toddler. embarassing (this is a thought). feel it, that's uncomfortable. shame. why? "well it shouldn't be like that". it is.

thought: maybe meditation isn't sufficient on its own but "it" is going to happen during a period of formal seated meditation for sure (belief that it can't be otherwise - how would i know that? i dont). this is sticky. clear "yeah i don't really believe that i don't believe that" feels. just a thought.

exploring the assumption "i have to practice" - let go of "i have to go sit in formal meditation" but there's attachment to "practicing" genericly. it's "ok" to not sit because i'm still doing practice in noticing thoughts and emotions during life. still justifying what i do or don't do to a hypothetical observer. have to defend my decisions against criticism that hasn't even happened yet and probably never will. that's also just a thought. practice is happening some times and not other times and thats how it is. thought arises "IF, THEN". if i do/dont then i will/wont [awaken, be good/right, whatever else]. Only a thought. Feels real. Feels fearful. Only a feeling. Feel the fear of "i won't awaken" without accepting it as true. Without doing anything about it. Gone now, Ok.

thought: this can't be it. this can't be enough. i have to do something else. have to struggle. have to earn it. don't i? just a thought

thought: notice every thought, challenge every thought. is that enough? still trying to do/be enough. frustrated face-image, screwed up tingly mouth and chin. gone.

thought: you're not really noticing thought, you're only noticing because you want to write it down as "noticed a thought". judgement thought - it's being noticed either way, why does it matter

thought: i'm not looking into self i'm just narrating my thoughts, this can't be it (again! and again!!). just a thought, don't know this.

later in the day, the emotional rawness and sensitivity is gone. didn't do anything to resolve it, didn't even watch it until it went away, it just went away at some point and i noticed

||| too late at night to pull on this latest thread, inquire below tomorrow
thought: it's all about thoughts isnt it
thought: thoughts never carry real information. wait also a belief.
a thought cant prove anything - beleif
a thought cant do anything thats a belief too
is every thought a belief? whats the difference?
if thoughts arent.. i dont know exactly what is trying to be expressed here.. how are things happening?
"things aren't real" makes me sad/angry. nobody even said things aren't real so where did that come from

[ty0]

If the hypothesis at the top of this is "the self isn't real" then we've admitted the categories of real and not real, abstractions sure but we have to accept a degree of abstraction to talk about this (or anything else!) at all

Just wanna clarify that the primary abstraction/concession we are making to carry out this investigation is that there is a distinction between the 5 senses and thought/mind-sense.

So what do *I* know-not-think is real?

What makes you think you are capable of knowing anything rather than just thinking/believing you know it?

the experience of seeing is still there whether i'm conceptualising it, describing it, talking about it to someone or no. The visual field is there, absent any thoughts about it, absent any do-ing of it or to it, it's just there. The contents of seeing may not be real - the house around me, the trees and sky outside, could all be an elaborate hallucination piped through a computer to a brain in a jar, but the seeing itself is irrefutable.

How do you know the seeing is there when there is only seeing? What I'm pointing to is that the visual field is different from the subtle perceptual overlay of it existing in your perception. When you say 'the seeing itself is irrefutable', you are already taking a position that will make you feel reactivity if I say 'you're not seeing at all, dude'.

The fact of seeing remains here in my experience, even if i can't prove or even communicate that to anyone else - that's what i point to when using the words "seeing is"

Before you translate this sense into language, it already exists as a non-verbal belief that what you're perceiving exists in your perception. "The seeing is there! I can see it!" When you use the words "seeing is", you're not pointing to the visual field, you're pointing to the subtle belief-sense that the visual field exists in your experience. Without that belief-sense, it does not feel any more correct to say "seeing is" or "seeing isn't".

But yes, I'm just indulging here. More emotion work is called for :)

it's "ok" to not sit because i'm still doing practice in noticing thoughts and emotions during life

Would it be "ok" without a justification? What if you were never able to do practice that could lead to insight for the rest of your life? Would it be "ok" to just leave it and be comfortably numb until you die? We don't necessarily know that you will awaken, whatever awakening means. Sit on this and feel into it.

thought: this can't be it. this can't be enough. i have to do something else. have to struggle. have to earn it. don't i? just a thought

What does enough really mean to you? Why do you have to do/get something or go somewhere? What's missing here? What if this is it and nothing is gonna change?

thought: it's all about thoughts isnt it
thought: thoughts never carry real information. wait also a belief.
a thought cant prove anything - beleif
a thought cant do anything thats a belief too
is every thought a belief? whats the difference?
if thoughts arent.. i dont know exactly what is trying to be expressed here.. how are things happening?
"things aren't real" makes me sad/angry. nobody even said things aren't real so where did that come from

This is touching the deep end. What if every thought is just a belief? What if it's all just arbitrary noise that your world is built around? What's the difference between fact and belief? How do you know things are even happening? What if nothing is real, even your own experience? What if everything is utterly meaningless, purposeless, and futile?
Feel into these questions. Do they invoke sadness, anger, fear, existential dread? It's ok if your mind goes crazy with thoughts when intense emotions arise, you have no control over it. In fact, do you have control over anything?

[ElliottM]

More mad scribblings. Reading this last post again and again is doing emotion things (is it or are reading things and emotion things just happening in proximity) i can't quite articulate as a single sentence. a whole mess of things. moment to moment experiences better tracked in my journal notes but getting at this bit before its too slippery to hold cos reading it this time triggered something

Before you translate this sense into language, it already exists as a non-verbal belief that what you're perceiving exists in your perception. "The seeing is there! I can see it!" When you use the words "seeing is", you're not pointing to the visual field, you're pointing to the subtle belief-sense that the visual field exists in your experience. Without that belief-sense, it does not feel any more correct to say "seeing is" or "seeing isn't".

then is the sticking point "in my perception", "in my experience"? the thoughts "i know xyz", "my experience", "my perception" whatever are just an empty label composed of memories (thoughts) of sounds that make english words which are symbols (thoughts) which dont have any inherent meaning or truth. maybe there's no actual factual way for me to know something. the thing that "i know" is never the thing, but another thought about it being referenced by the first thought. a memory-thought of a sense-impression, triggered automatically by the stimulus of the first thought. the mind sense can only deal with thoughts.. the mind can't see.. any more than the eyes can smell.. oh dear. so for thoughts to have real information from any other sense field we would need to posit some kind of interface point that can mediate access to both.. a self.. which if we take the working hypothesis of no-self at face value means.. they dont do that. so how is it that thoughts can have a facsimile of things that have been seen (or even not yet seen) within them, if never the two have met? where are thoughts getting these convincing impressions of sense data from? how do the words on the page become thoughts in the mind?

shit ive mind wandered again

could the visual field still just exist, no qualifiers no ownership, not an actual subject of thoughts, not known "by" anyone but known nonetheless? is this semantics or is there more going on here? whatever the properties or ontological status of this stuff is if indeed it has them, there is the appearance of stuff. isn't there?


Right, gonna stop bashing my logic head into the solid mystery wall for now. The musings of the day thus far.
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dog wants attention while i'm typing my post - annoyed, assumption that my thought plan of "i'm gonna go type the thing" was a prediction of the real future and not "just a thought". making my headache worse. reflex to blame something other than my wrong assumption for this incongruity between reality and thought (poor doggo, not your fault!)

headaches are bad is a belief. what's the belief behind *that* statement that makes it feel bad? it feels like "your suffering isn't real" and the belief is hell yes it is and you're an asshole for saying otherwise. also i guess the generic form "suffering is bad" is a belief. which yeah i can see the absence of absolute truth there - an instance of suffering can be a precondition for other things arising which are good so it can't be absolutely bad

Urge to qualify statements and leave "outs" for everything. "i think," "maybe," rephrase a statement as a question - don't commit! - fear of being wrong

urge of the moment is i wanna make some toast and then play a video game. judgement thought - that's bad, somehow. who the hell told me that? it's not "spiritual" enough, it's distraction, whatever. what even is distraction? what is there to be distracted from, there's only the life in front of me right now

christ my head is pounding. can i just accept that? no, lets not lie if i could wave a wand and disappear it i would without a moments hesitation, i could say "i accept this" but it's not true, idont want it. can i accept that i can't accept it right now? that sounds bizzare what does that mean. can i let the state of not-wanting-to-have-a-headache be without judging myself for it or trying to change it? yeah, think i can do that

what makes the statement "X is a belief" more than just a belief itself. is it more?

thought: you're play acting, this is just mental busywork spinning in circles, it's not going to do anything. judgement. just a thought. just a mental construct of remembered bits of sounds i experienced previously some time

always (not always! for years though) thought awakening was "my purpose" in life. what if my purpose heretofore was just the seeking of it. if i get it i wont be seeking any more by definition. who am i then?

the thought "i'm not gonna get there" arises again but has less force. true or not it feels less relevant. if i didn't awaken then not-being-awake is just the reality i'd have to deal with so?

is dislike an emotion? a thought? maybe. i can't tell. the feeling appears primary to thoughts about it, can i describe this felt pressure-to-get-away without thoughts? no. does that mean it's not a thing in its own right? the experience of not liking is certainly there, labeled or otherwise

urgency is not felt as strongly. preparing food, cooking, cleaning up, don't feel the urge to rush rush rush get it finished for no other reason than having it finished. don't have completely unnecessary excuses springing to mind for why i haven't got it done already (who am i defending myself to? what am i defending?). leaking over into everything. even the search for awakening seems a bit.. i dont know, silly? when seen as this burning need that Must Be Done. not efforting and worrying about my efforting and judging my worrying is a relief. if indeed this is an automatic process that is unfolding then none of what i'm "doing" is relevant. is that an excuse for lazyness? or is the judgement thought of "lazy" an excuse to hold back from total trust and acceptance that NO REALLY i'm not in control. either could be true.

could i give up the search, give up the goal entirely, and still be ok? if this is all there is, could that be ok? i dont think i can say "yes" for certain right now but i can entertain the possibility without rejecting it out of hand as unacceptable

that thought causes sadness, watering eyes, trembling lip, mental image of sad face. belief: it's all been a waste - judgement, just a thought, everything that ever was is a precondition for this right here. sit with this sadness for a while. it doesn't go away, that's ok. let it be there, in context, go about your day. sadness is here, so is the sound of traffic, so is the feeling of cold air, so is the screen in front of me. sadness is happening but it's not all that's happening. ok. it's not something you have to act on unless you think it is.

how much of life am i missing sitting here wondering if i'm even real?

nausea, dread. sucking sensation in the chest. sound/feeling of pounding pulse is prominent. passing. returning. disoriented feeling in the head (maybe its just the headache, not everything is about your Big Existential Problems. Actual laughter there, still going. Ok. Some unplesant feelings remain, big natural smile is there too.)

More laughter. Kind, good natured, not cruel or mocking. This is silly but that's every bit as much a thought judgement as this is Serious Business.

Reading back my own writing, slight laughter and slight tears. Bittersweet. Don't know what to think of it. don't know that i need to think anything of it.

what if thought is a hammer in a universe where nails dont even exist? and it's still the only tool i have?

is experience real? what would "experience that ISN'T real" even look like? like this?

if i don't, can't know anything and know that i know it, then what is any of this? what is there to investigate. oh this is frustrating. belief: i should be able to know SOMETHING. why should i? what is THIS. THIS RIGHT NOW. WHAT IS IT? Is this bodily sensation of frustration causally tied to the thought? Is it possible that it's correlation only, purely an astonishing sequence of coincidence that a thought arises that says its about [felt thing] in proximity to that thing more or less every time forever. i cant refute it. Can i take cause and effect for granted? fuck me what's going on.

what if typing all this bullshit is accomplishing nothing (assumption that it should or even could accomplish something. but what am i doing if not?)

ANGER. impotent chest-growly foot-stampy anger. deep breath it in. feel that shit. is this real? why is the anger. if we're conceding that beliefs/contradictions cause emotional reactions then we're conceding that cause and effect exists. using the term "reaction" implies that it does. implies a relationship. does that mean a relationship is there? this is some philosophy 101 bullshit, how can we like know anything man? how indeed. forget "i know", is it possible for something to be known period? is there knowing?

Lots of questions, few answers. Maybe a good thing? To pose a question does not necessitate that an answer even exists. Maybe i can't have the answers and not pretending to (or assuming i do rather) is better. What then does that mean for questioning?

[ElliottM]

an up and down evening. a whole up and down day if im honest. stretches where i felt like i was totally cool with whatever did or didnt happen ever again and others in a lot of physical and mental distress. posting this last bit and letting it go, no ruminating myself to sleep tonight

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ugh, wave of sickness in the gut, weird feeling in the face. confusion and wrongness more than actual frustration. a bit of helplessness maybe. the mind rebels at trying to wrap around this "too hard, hurts, stop, go away"

played some games with wife & friends. good times. felt like any normal night, none of the mind and reality turmoil bringin me down here.

anxiety, tingly face and chest, queasy stomach, wincing face mental image. don't know why exactly, maybe just generalised worry about this whole process. how it's going, where it's going. there's resistance to it, this is more unpleasant than sadness, harder to be with. beliefs like i'm going to fail, if i succeed i'll go crazy or lose something essential, whats going to happen to the person my wife married, i'm not worth anyone wasting time trying to guide me. oh sadness hit there too. ok just had to put my head down and feel shitty and cry for a little while there. maybe more than a little while. a tendency for attention to get pulled away from the senations into thoughts, restarting the worry loops, keeping the physical aspect going. tried to focus on the senations, kept happening. after a while attention settled in the body a bit more consistently, easier to sit through. still not the kind of neutral energy difficult emotions sometimes turn into, quite unpleasant but less resistance. less, not none, don't like this sick feeling. thinking "not liking this sick feeling" then also started tearing up again. reistance to the resistance? just a guess i don't even know its all a bit much. ok. lets address those beliefs and then were done for tonight. i can't know that i'm going to fail. it is unlikely that awakening is driving people to be mad spiritual characters and renounce the world and their families if there's all these apparently normal-ass people on youtube and books and forums saying theyve done it and are helping people do it. and my self worth worries are a habitual tendency that tries to pre-emptively protect myself from the pain of being unloved or abandoned. oof, ok, nothing in there that requires body and mind to react like that's a dead set certainty or you're living through it right now. still crying a bit though. that's fine, can live with crying.

tomorrow consider: doing this work to challenge my beliefs on a conventional basis, while undermining the fundamentals of reality that allow there to even be such a thing as belief. does the impossibility of a belief being absolutely true mean that it's never reasonable to hold beliefs? i'm pretty convinced the sun will come up tomorrow, can't absolutely rule out the contrary but i wouldn't be putting money on it is all. ugh no enough my minds starting to knot up again. done for tonight.

[ElliottM]

slower day of more normal life stuff. took some time to myself, intentions more aligned with just giving myself space to chill and be there more so than to "do practice" but in the moment it felt natural/good to just start watching thoughts for a while. emotional hangover from the intense swings of late, not the bare-nerve rawness of an open wound that i had previously, more like a bit of residue left from remembered emotional events. some gentle questioning without the burning need for answers or the expectation of finding them.
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emotions keep sweeping in and out changing like the wind. slowly morphing from one to another, or just there then gone or changed in an instant. moping down the stairs and dancing back up 5 minutes later. no control here.

still the fluctuation between calm and agitation but milder overall, just as swingy but less extreme. thank god i don't think i could keep up the intensity of the last couple of days indefinitely. there's a bit of longing for the better feelings when the bad ones come but ultimately acceptance, this low level dissatisfaction is easy enough to be with, when seen forwhat it is, just a thought + body sensation

realised along with that longing today that during the more intense emotional extremes of yesterday, both of calm and misery, that there was basically no recognition or remembering of the opposite mind state that it was separated from by mere hours. in both cases there was the subtle unspoken assumption "this is what it's like now, for good"

a belief is an assumption is a thought, thought is making an unverified claim about reality. but if no thought can ever be really true (they also can't really be truly false either..) verification isn't a thing you can do with *the thought* as such. but surely you can't write off thought altogether, it can be *useful* if not *true* - how is daily life to be done without it?

what then is a reasonable relationship with thought? can you withold absolute convictions of the truth or falsehood of thoughts but still use them to navigate the world? and the investigation into reality? is the key non-attachment to outcomes? if something you think will happen doesn't happen, is it still a contradiction (provoking a reaction) if you just lightly hold as a possibility for all thoughts that it wont pan out how you think it will? can you make a conventionally-reasonable assupmtion if you don't forget/ignore that it IS always an assumption?

sit quietly with "what will the next thought be" for an hour or so. lots and lots of mind wandering and lapses of attention but zero judgement about that. no strong emotions arise this time. a light feeling of anxiety - belief: i'm in trouble, someone's mad at me, i'm not safe. young face image. a scared, hurt child's belief. what's it doing in here? it's not true, i'm safe right now. try and feel this fear but it's at a distance, like it's not really mine. invite it in anyway, offer it safety. a slight warm feeling in the heart center. this belief and presumably others like it are always in operation, automatically looking for an expression. the feeling is there almost always, subtly, the feeling comes and THEN tries to scan the world around and fit what is sees into the narrative about "this is why". if there's nothing to latch onto immediately, it will make things up. that "i've forgotten something important" feeling as it tries to search for an explanation for something that's already happening anyway. "you need to be worried about... i don't know, find something". cut down one story and another takes its place. just recognise when this pattern is in operation.

there's not a significant difference between perceiving thought arising and perceiving no though arising. no significant difference between perceiving sound and perceiving silence. the mind sense operates continuously just like the visual and auditory fields

[ty0]

hey Elliott, wanna do a zoom call? it could be a q&a and then a guided inquiry. if you're keen, let me know what day/time works for you next week. you seem "primed" for it

but surely you can't write off thought altogether, it can be *useful* if not *true* - how is daily life to be done without it?

Well, we're not trying to eradicate thought here. When you watch a movie, you know they're acting, but you can still enjoy it, no? No matter how far you go, thoughts will be thunk, things will be done.

what then is a reasonable relationship with thought? can you withold absolute convictions of the truth or falsehood of thoughts but still use them to navigate the world? and the investigation into reality? is the key non-attachment to outcomes?

Are you aware that this is just your mind's habitual tendency to try and form an opinion/view about something so you can close the case and move on to the next thing? It's just that this is a particular conundrum because the matter of thought is such a big one.

Do you have the assumption that enlightenment is when you 'figure things out'? Do you think you'll be done when you've found the 'right answers' to everything? Do you think the key is to be taking the right perspective as opposed to wrong ones?

Lots of questions, few answers. Maybe a good thing? To pose a question does not necessitate that an answer even exists. Maybe i can't have the answers and not pretending to (or assuming i do rather) is better. What then does that mean for questioning?

To pose a question does not necessitate that an answer exists, but it does ASSUME that one does. Questioning is valuable, because every question is built on an assumption.

[ElliottM]

That sounds good! Well it sounds a little scary too to be honest but that's something else to investigate i guess :) Wednesday or Friday through Sunday are all fine for me, I work from home and can be free most any time those days. I realised I forgot to say, I'm in Sydney Australia (GMT +10)

Are you aware that this is just your mind's habitual tendency to try and form an opinion/view about something so you can close the case and move on to the next thing? It's just that this is a particular conundrum because the matter of thought is such a big one.

Do you have the assumption that enlightenment is when you 'figure things out'? Do you think you'll be done when you've found the 'right answers' to everything? Do you think the key is to be taking the right perspective as opposed to wrong ones?

I wasn't aware at the time but yeah makes sense framed like that. And thought is a big one. There's a tendency to say "yes that's how everything is worked out" but it's not is it - or rather this is something that "working it out" just doesn't apply to in the first place. Then there's a tendency to admit that, but move to "ah, not taking a perspective at all is how you do it that's the answer" which is.. still doing the same thing, "you shouldn't have a view" is a view. The more I poke at this the more im coming to slowly accept there isn't a thought based answer to be had at all. I keep trying (using thoughts) to work out how the thoughts and thinking layer of abstraction interacts with the layer of "real stuff" (or assumed to be real/realer, based on thinking about it) underneath and draw a blank, it's self defeating - any answer is a thought, which can't be trusted to be saying something true. But I'm always left with "if not thought, then what do i do?". assuming there's something to do - sticky assumption, the fact that i'm engaged in this work at all suggests that there's something "i'm doing" and need to continue doing. Gonna accept that I can't resolve this right now.

To pose a question does not necessitate that an answer exists, but it does ASSUME that one does. Questioning is valuable, because every question is built on an assumption.

Tendency to try and "solve" this too. The "real answer" then is to undo the assumption the question is based on, with more thinking. Mind trying to take the shape of this, and draw more conclusions from it. Maybe best to accept the "questioning is valuable" part for now and not try and preemptively "get it right"

Went out for dinner with my wife last night, had fun, considered more on the question of could i be ok if nothing changed. Closer to a yes now. Life is pretty good, much of the world would greatly appreciate having my life. Letting go of struggling with this would at the least immediately relieve the frustration and disappointment of seeking. How much of my suffering is just my own resistance to what's happening? The doctrinal answer is "all of it" of course but there's resistance to admitting that, and a feeling it doesn't quite gel with lived experience. Mostly at the physical, pain-injury-and-sickness level. I really, really don't like pain (who does lol). Could I be ok with the mental ups and downs of normal life? Seems likely, i've gotten through a lot of it already in many contexts. "could i be ok with miserable, protracted physical suffering" is still a definite no at the moment. There's a layer of fear deep there about the inevitability of future pain and an assumption i can't deal with it. There's a voice of doubt in thoughts saying it's easy to say yes now but wait until you're really tested, then it will fail. Still, it's softened a bit further overall.

Work day today, lets see how i get triggered (that actually sounds intersting/exciting right now :))

[ty0]

Let's do Wednesday, I'm in Singapore (GMT+8) so our time is pretty synced up. I'm at home recovering from a surgery this week so any time is good for me, just let me know.

The more I poke at this the more im coming to slowly accept there isn't a thought based answer to be had at all. I keep trying (using thoughts) to work out how the thoughts and thinking layer of abstraction interacts with the layer of "real stuff" (or assumed to be real/realer, based on thinking about it) underneath and draw a blank, it's self defeating

This is great stuff. I wouldn't call any aspect of experience realer because 'realness' is just another abstraction that doesn't interact with the actual experience. Are you starting to see how thought cannot interact at all with the "other stuff"? No matter what you think or believe, it doesn't alter the "other stuff", only your interpretation of them, which is then back in the layer of abstraction.

This sounds well and good and a little obvious even, but when you see how much of your experience is really only thought...
It gets pretty funky when the paradigm your entire life is built on and the grand purpose all your decisions are based upon fall away.

You say you're coming to accept there isn't a thought-based answer, but is there such a thing as an answer not based in thought? Does the entire paradigm of there being questions and answers and problems and solutions even exist outside of the layer of thought abstraction?

Thought is a problem-solving tool, but problems are a thought creation. However, thought can also be used to solve the problem of itself which is what you're doing now. It's like a snake eating its own tail.

But I'm always left with "if not thought, then what do i do?"

Hahahahahah. Yeah it's hilarious actually ;''''DD. "What do I do?" is a thought. It's one of the first thoughts we can have. The mind creates a problem then gives itself the job of solving it. That's the entire purpose of thought.

Inquire into this: Who's asking "if not thought, then what do i do?" Where is the one who's asking that? Where does that question come from?

I really, really don't like pain (who does lol). Could I be ok with the mental ups and downs of normal life? Seems likely, i've gotten through a lot of it already in many contexts. "could i be ok with miserable, protracted physical suffering" is still a definite no at the moment. There's a layer of fear deep there about the inevitability of future pain and an assumption i can't deal with it.

Physical pain is a big one, and it's normal to have loooots of resistance to it. For now, just recognise that even "I don't like pain" is a thought. But somehow, acute everyday pains like scrapes and scratches and cramps and burns and toe-stubbing aren't so bad are they? I mean, yeah, they hurt, but there's not much mental anguish, is there? With the kind of chronic physical suffering you're describing, the difference is the fear of it lasting long and being totally helpless against it. You're already suffering from the belief that this will happen to you and the fear of it when it's nowhere to be found in your experience. I'm not saying that an "enlightened person" would enjoy (or even tolerate) intense pains though. I would definitely pick death over torture.

Speaking of death, I think you should start thinking about it. Even this fear of pain presupposes that you'll live to see the day your body develops illnesses. People live their lives making plans and judgements and evaluations about days that might not come. You sometimes lose sleep because of thoughts that are based on the belief that you'll wake up from the night's slumber. The irony!

How would you live your life if you had a year left to live? A month? A week? Does that thought invoke relief or fear? You don't seem to have fully grasped your own mortality, most people die before they get to. Think about committing suicide tonight. What thoughts/emotions does that invoke? Do you think about all the things you dreamed of doing but never got around to? Do you think of all the suffering of your loved ones who will grieve your sudden death? What's so scary about death? If you didn't fear death, then how could you fear chronic pain and illness? Suicide is a pretty quick and easy solution to that kinda stuff (could be fun, too)! Well, unless you fear death, of course.

“To begin depriving death of its greatest advantage over us, let us adopt a way clean contrary to that common one; let us deprive death of its strangeness, let us frequent it, let us get used to it; let us have nothing more often in mind than death... We do not know where death awaits us: so let us wait for it everywhere. To practice death is to practice freedom. A man who has learned how to die has unlearned how to be a slave.”
― Michel de Montaigne

Keep me posted :)

[ty0]

But I'm always left with "if not thought, then what do i do?"

Hahahahahah. Yeah it's hilarious actually ;''''DD. "What do I do?" is a thought. It's one of the first thoughts we can have. The mind creates a problem then gives itself the job of solving it. That's the entire purpose of thought.

Ah, I forgot to add that that's what you feel YOUR entire purpose is. When you take yourself to be the mind, it feels like you're always looking for the next problem to solve, and if there is none, you make one. This investigation can be scary at times because of the fear of a lack of food for the mind. A fear of 'ME having nothing to do, nothing to solve'.

'Then why am I here? What's the point in all this?'
No problem, no purpose. That can be terrifying.
'Everything I think is utterly meaningless and is just a game the mind plays with itself... Then what's my role? What's my job? There's nothing to think. There's nothing to fix. There's nothing to do. Give me a job! Give me something to do!!! If I don't serve a purpose, why should I even be? Who am I without my purpose? Can I even BE without purpose?'

Some fun little thoughts that many on this journey have had :)