Got stuck in tiger's mouth

[bysa]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no reality to what we consider as self. There is no entity called 'self' by itself. I understand this at the mental level but not experientially. I'm not sure how much of my ideas about no self is true and 'real' but I still find myself getting lost in thoughts and emotions, being identified as them.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking to unblock myself or find a path forward and remove this seeking energy. It feels like my head is in the tiger's mouth, and I can't do anything about it. I can't go back to my old life, and I can't stop looking for a way out. It feels like I'm stuck in a loop of frustration and disappointment.

Every time I find some grounding or understanding, life hits me with a force that shatters it, and I lose my footing, falling again. This has been my experience for the past year or so.

I've read many teachings, from no-self to self-inquiry, but none of them feel true to me, none match my reality. One point in the LU FAQ really caught my attention:
"How will I know I’ve awakened? Awakening will confirm itself—you will come to a point where you will see and know, without a doubt."

Doubt has been my companion for as long as I can remember. Not knowing what's true, where to go, what to do—always looking for something outside since inside there is only doubt and confusion.

I've reached a point where I'm really tired of this constant seeking and not finding.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't really know! I don't know if this is just another baseless hope. But at the same time, I feel a drive and energy inside me to try things I haven't tried before. Working 1:1 with someone who is liberated might help me unblock myself at this stage.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been meditating for the past 4-5 years on and off, but consistently with different methods, guided and unguided for the past year. I tried various modalities like bodywork and inquiry, read the teachings of different teachers, many of the recommended books on LU.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi bysa
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali

Thank you very much for accepting to guide me through this process. I appreciate it.

(is that what you want me to call you?)

you can call me Shafigh :)

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

This was the first page that I read here, but I gave it another read

What time zone are in?

I'm in Pacific Standard Time (PST)

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

Sounds great, thank you Rali :)

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

This was the first page that I read here, but I gave it another read

Thank you!

I'm in Pacific Standard Time (PST)

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

Sounds great, thank you Rali :)

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

Done

I tried to answer your questions separately, but they can likely be read together. Let me know if you'd like me to provide more specific answers to any of them.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?
5. What is missing?

There won't be any sense of a separate "I" from life. There won't be any confusion about what is right and wrong. I won't be running away from the present moment or looking for a future event to make things better. Instead, I will find completeness in the now, in this moment. I don't expect life to go according to my ideas and imagination. On the contrary, that's the point—since there won't be a sense of "I," there will be no point of reference to evaluate each moment as good or bad. Life won't be a burden or a weight that I need to carry all the time. Without a separate thinker or a sense of "I," I won't need to constantly embrace myself every moment.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

Life will be frictionless, simply flowing in whatever direction it moves, like a leaf in a river, going with the current without the need to know where it is going.

3. What do you want not to happen?

Seeking continues—doubt, confusion, hesitation, and constantly getting caught up in thinking.

4. What are you hoping for?

LU FAQ: "Awakening will confirm itself—you will come to a point where you will see and know, without a doubt."


Thanks again and looking forward to hearing back from you,
Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

Before I answer your question, I want to explain how I usually respond. When I read your post, I jot down the first thoughts that come to mind. Then, I take about an hour or so without actively thinking about it. During this time, more ideas usually come to me, either by questioning whether what I wrote truly resonates with me, if it came from my genuine self or just some ingrained beliefs. Sometimes, I also find a better way to explain what I mean.

Let me know if you've found a better approach to this process in your experience.

The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end.

That's all I want because it's out of my control. I've tried to stop it by clinging to different teachings, taking the words of "teachers," forcing it to stop, and ignoring it—none of which worked. So, I know clearly that it's out of my control. The only outcome of all this was that I stopped fighting the presence of seeking and accepted it in a way.

> The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I'm not sure if I can say if it's OK with me or not. It's not that I don't understand or disagree with what you mean, but I don't want "not having expectations" to become a new belief that I cling to. Over the years, I've accumulated so many beliefs and understandings that I've realized aren't useful. What I can promise you is that everything I write here comes directly from my personal experience.

> Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

I understand it. In retrospect, I can even prove it to myself by tracing back all the events of my day, showing it was just cause and effect without any thinker, doer, or decision-maker. The sticky part is when I'm about to make a decision or choose—I find the "I" inside. I feel that "I" am making the decision, and it brings with it all the emotions, responsibility, the need to make good decisions, right decisions, and avoid regret, etc.
In a way, I only understand it at a mental level; it's not integrated. It's another example of a belief that I hold but doesn't benefit me. As you've probably noticed by now, the whole domain of decision-making and doubt is the most challenging and uncomfortable for me. I've developed and held onto many beliefs to soothe myself, but none of them have worked so far. That's why I'm cautious about adding another belief to my collection. At this point, instead of being useful, they're just a weight that I carry around.

Thank you,
Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

Before I answer your question, I want to explain how I usually respond. When I read your post, I jot down the first thoughts that come to mind. Then, I take about an hour or so without actively thinking about it. During this time, more ideas usually come to me, either by questioning whether what I wrote truly resonates with me, if it came from my genuine self or just some ingrained beliefs. Sometimes, I also find a better way to explain what I mean.

Let me know if you've found a better approach to this process in your experience.

It will make much more sense once you learn how to look in DE, but in general I don’t need the “right” answer as there is no such thing. I want to know what rings true at the moment, so no need for premeditated and overthought answers - you just look right now and report. As for the “genuine self” vs “ingrained beliefs” we’ll see if there is a difference at all ;)

I understand it. In retrospect, I can even prove it to myself by tracing back all the events of my day, showing it was just cause and effect without any thinker, doer, or decision-maker. The sticky part is when I'm about to make a decision or choose—I find the "I" inside. I feel that "I" am making the decision, and it brings with it all the emotions, responsibility, the need to make good decisions, right decisions, and avoid regret, etc.
In a way, I only understand it at a mental level; it's not integrated. It's another example of a belief that I hold but doesn't benefit me. As you've probably noticed by now, the whole domain of decision-making and doubt is the most challenging and uncomfortable for me. I've developed and held onto many beliefs to soothe myself, but none of them have worked so far. That's why I'm cautious about adding another belief to my collection. At this point, instead of being useful, they're just a weight that I carry around.

Thank you for your honesty! It gives me an idea where to begin. And believe me ( :)) ), we do not teach here, we just guide where and how to look so you can see for yourself.

Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

So there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple (or any other object).



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

No labels can be used because anything that we label is coming from knowing, in other words, Direct experience cannot be talked about.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple (or any other object).

I looked at my hand and noticed it was moving, it was like the first time I saw my hand without the labeling and thoughts about it. And strangely, It feels like it's not "my" hand, there is something that is moving without me controlling it and I have no idea about it. It's like I've never seen without thinking and labeling, there never was just seeing.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

There is no apple in actual experience, nothing is labeled in actual experience

Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

No labels can be used because anything that we label is coming from knowing, in other words, Direct experience cannot be talked about.

Yes! And then again labels are useful for communication. I suppose the analogy with the icons on your computer desktop comes handy. They are used as a visual representation of what is actually a binary code – zeros and ones - so you can make use of them. But is the icon of email really a box with mail in it? So there is nothing wrong with labels as long as their empty/conditioned nature is known.

There is no apple in actual experience, nothing is labeled in actual experience

Well yes! “Apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

Apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

The difference is clear


Walking
Thoughts about walking: Simply = thought (thinking)
Feeling the tingling in the feet: Simply = sensation (feeling)
Seeing trees, sky: Simply = colour, shapes (seeing)
Hearing birds: Simply = sound (hearing)

Brushing Teeth
Thoughts about brushing: Simply = thought (thinking)
Seeing the brush: Simply = colour (seeing)
Feeling the brush against the teeth: Simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the toothpaste: Simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the water: Simply = sound (hearing)



Two things I noticed (let me know if I should just stick to the questions and answers; I don't want to jump ahead of myself):

1. Thinking seems to be a bigger category compared to the rest. It involves deciding to do the action, figuring out how to do it, assessing if it's being done correctly, deciding if any adjustments are needed, and knowing when to stop.
2. In your example, you listed thinking as the last step, but for me, it is the first step.


Thank you,
Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh

Thoughts about walking: Simply = thought (thinking)
Feeling the tingling in the feet: Simply = sensation (feeling)
Seeing trees, sky: Simply = colour, shapes (seeing)
Hearing birds: Simply = sound (hearing)

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit. Please share one daily activity broken down like that with each reply

How does it feel to see what actually is?

One thing though… You specifically made a distinction between colour and shapes, so let's explore this...
Have a look at this abstract painting.



Seeing can be likened to an abstract painting and if you look at an abstract painting you start to see shapes etc within the painting itself. Those shapes aren’t really there…but they SEEM (appear) to be. So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist?
When you look at the painting…all there is, is the paint. The paint is appearing exactly as it is… Can you see this?
Now look at this picture


When looking at this picture, thought automatically divides and labels colour into many different colours, then further names those colours into specific objects.

IGNORE ALL object labels and colour labels:-
Are there many colours? Or is there simply colour?
Is there an actual gap between the ‘trees’? Or is the gap actually colour?
Where does colour begin and end? In other words, can an actual dividing line be found between where one colour ends and another begins, or is that just a mental construct?

Furthermore, are there seeing and colour? Does colour "sit around" waiting to be seen?
Which one of the following describes best DE:
1. I am seeing colour
2. seeing colour
3. seeing
You can investigate the other senses as well. Please report your findings

Two things I noticed (let me know if I should just stick to the questions and answers; I don't want to jump ahead of myself):

1. Thinking seems to be a bigger category compared to the rest. It involves deciding to do the action, figuring out how to do it, assessing if it's being done correctly, deciding if any adjustments are needed, and knowing when to stop.
2. In your example, you listed thinking as the last step, but for me, it is the first step.

I didn’t list them in any particular order. We’ll explore thinking next :)
Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali,

Please share one daily activity broken down like that with each reply

Working out
Thoughts about what to do, simply = thought (thinking)
Seeing the weights, simply = colour (seeing)
Feeling the tension in the muscles, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the music, simply = sound (hearing)

How does it feel to see what actually is?

it's definitely new and quite strange, even though I've been living for many years but never saw it without the veil of thoughts

Seeing can be likened to an abstract painting and if you look at an abstract painting you start to see shapes etc within the painting itself. Those shapes aren’t really there…but they SEEM (appear) to be. So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist?
When you look at the painting…all there is, is the paint. The paint appears exactly as it is… Can you see this?

without putting any label, there is no shape, there is not even any color. All of these seem to be mental constructs and ideas. it's nothing that can be talked about.

IGNORE ALL object labels and colour labels:-
Are there many colours? Or is there simply colour?
Is there an actual gap between the ‘trees’? Or is the gap actually colour?
Where does color begin and end? In other words, can an actual dividing line be found between where one colour ends and another begins, or is that just a mental construct?

The line between colors is from the mind and thoughts, without thoughts there is no line between colors, it's hard to say that there is even any color. I tried this today, it's much easier to see in still images or paintings and 2d pictures. it's a bit harder to move objects or when I touch something, it's almost like there are objects that I can touch and move, there isn't a unified painting anymore.

Furthermore, are there seeing and colour? Does colour "sit around" waiting to be seen?
Which one of the following describes best DE:
1. I am seeing colour
2. seeing colour
3. seeing

Seeing! only seeing. Does it mean that there is no "thing" on its own? and only seeing makes them appear? like if there is no seeing, there is nothing?


This has been a strange exercise for me.

Thanks,
Shafigh

[poppyseed]

Hi Shafigh
Good looking!

Seeing! only seeing. Does it mean that there is no "thing" on its own? and only seeing makes them appear? like if there is no seeing, there is nothing?

Seeing makes what appear - labels? All you have is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and feeling, and thinking provides the description/labels. To say that there is a thing or not outside of the senses would be an assumption/thought, wouldn’t it? How could be known that there is a “thing”, when all you have is your experiences – feeling, seeing, hearing, smelling, and tasting? Are “objects” really experienced or assumed from the experience of the senses?

The line between colors is from the mind and thoughts, without thoughts there is no line between colors, it's hard to say that there is even any color. I tried this today, it's much easier to see in still images or paintings and 2d pictures. it's a bit harder to move objects or when I touch something, it's almost like there are objects that I can touch and move, there isn't a unified painting anymore.

Ok let’s investigate this a bit further before we dive into thoughts

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?
Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Love
Rali

[bysa]

Hi Rali

How could be known that there is a “thing”, when all you have is your experiences – feeling, seeing, hearing, smelling, and tasting? Are “objects” really experienced or assumed from the experience of the senses?

I totally get that "objects" are only assumed from the experience of the senses

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?

b. Coldness - sensation labeled "cold" there are no fingers and can separate

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

There is no "thing" as body. no shape or form. no boundary between the body and the chair. Not even a body, just sensations with no inside and outside. The only experience of the body is just sensations which only thoughts label it as body. there is no "body" to do things if labels are removed.

Thanks,
Shafigh