Undertand but Can't See

[IndonesianLU]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no 'I' as a real - inherent self, just an illusion that exists in the thoughts, just a story or an idea.
I understand this intelectually but cannot see the illusion in a direct experience.
Still feeling there is a controller, observer, and somebody.

What are you looking for at LU?
Liberation from the delusional self that makes the belief of a separate self that is in control.
Realisation from the illusion of the ego-mind, can clearly see without any doubt about the truth.
Be free or at least lighter and thoughts are not stickier because there is nothing to stick to in the first place.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect I will not dissapoint my guide for my incompetence.
English is not my native languange, I am from Indonesia.
I'm hoping for a clear understandable communication.
Expecting some kind of perspective shift too.
Have not doubt, can be sure 100% No-Self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I Raised as Moslem/ Islamic Family in Indonesia, practice

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[IndonesianLU]

Now I can see there's me as a thought content
I wrote:

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no 'I' as a real - inherent self, just an illusion that exists in the thoughts, just a story or an idea.
I understand this intelectually but cannot see the illusion in a direct experience.
Still feeling there is a controller, observer, and somebody.

What are you looking for at LU?
Liberation from the delusional self that makes the belief of a separate self that is in control.
Realisation from the illusion of the ego-mind, can clearly see without any doubt about the truth.
Be free or at least lighter and thoughts are not stickier because there is nothing to stick to in the first place.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect I will not dissapoint my guide for my incompetence.
English is not my native languange, I am from Indonesia.
I'm hoping for a clear understandable communication.
Expecting some kind of perspective shift too.
Have not doubt, can be sure 100% No-Self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I Raised as Moslem/ Islamic Family in Indonesia, practice

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

While waiting for guidance,
I practicing the exercises describe in other threads;
Like using one sense or other senses of the five senses,
Compared to the thought contents, ie. Story, ideas, imagination.

I also keep practicing my religion's rituals like:
Praying five times a day or Sholat with Wudhu (Washing hands and other parts of the body before the rituals, chanting and repeating dzikir (Islamic mantra/japa-like Samatha meditation)
Fasting (not eating for hours) and donating for charity,

Somehow the thoughts are less arising, silence of the mind happens, but I still experience sensations; color, shapes, and hearing sounds, and feeling strong sense of separate self in the body (whereas it's only stories in thoughts plus the sensations)

And this morning, after sex with my wife, I just relaxing in my bed.
Then I tried to hear some of the sounds in the bedroom, outside the house, feeling the touched sheets in the skin, seeing bright black (I closed my eyes but not sleeping), than seeing happens!

The 'I' is like a subtle voice but only in thoughts, arising with sensations in chest and throat area (there are no chest actually) and the story teller, labeling machine, is like a sensations in the head but is just thought contents too, there is no head also!

Some imaginations and voices arising from nowhere but here and now also the sensations noticed; hearing happens, sounds from the ceiling fan, feeling pressure and temperature happens, reddish black in the field of vision just happens.

Without no doubt, the 'me' thought is clearly seen or heard, like imagined ninja, very slowly and silently claiming he is the ego, the thinker, with deep bass voice it is the 'I' but really it just thought content and some small physical sensation with another fleeting voices as another thought that labels the experiences from five senses. They are only thoughts! My self is not real, like I cannot eat an apple from my thought, it is an imagination only.

Now I know how and where to look, but there is no me, it's like a batman storyline that the batman try to search for the illusion of the batman, weird and life goes on normally, nothing changes in the story of my life, work as usual, go to the office, talking to people, somehow like having another preception but really it's just like seeing to transparent veil, like opening eyeglasses to see..

So the 'I' is understood, and can be seen.
Understanding and seeing just happens!

The 'I' doesn't exists in the real world, only the sound of a different thoughts, as voices and imaginations, thought-contents.. Thanks!

[IndonesianLU]

This morning I practiced the "Look" again,

While lying on my bed, relaxing after wake up from sleep.

Noticing the breath and hearing sounds, seeing black-ish (eyes closed), all the raw sensations and arising thoughts happened...

At the first, the thought content appearing real, like half dreaming, I'm interacting with my colleagues and answering them, then it hit me that this isn't real, they just the content of thoughts, not real.

Then back to the awareness of hearing sounds, watching colour (bright black with eyes closed), feeling touched by bed cover, etc.

And the realization after looking happened; 'I' SEE 'me'

The best analogy for describing this is like watching movies with subtitles or watching documentary film with a commentator.

Raw experiences from five senses is the movie/film and the separate self is the commentator, but not real, just voices inside thoughts, like subtitles, only mind-made, just popping thoughts...

Although the shift is subtle, not glowing like some spiritual honeymoon experiences, now I always know how and where to "LOOK" and the delusion of a separate self from the illusion make-belief the story of 'Me'

'I' is a Fiction (but even these many words/analogies/language can never enough to describe this very simple realization) right?

[CapnBoomer]

Thank you for posting. I too am waiting for a guide and am going ahead with my own self inquiry into the validity of this thing we call self or I. It is quite the thing to just simply stop and LOOK. Wow..I also find it heartening and amazing that this looking is happening all over the world...you in Indonesia..(I infer. from your handle)...and me in rural Maine in the US. How cool is that!! and we are all looking for the same nonexistent "I" WE have been fooled the world over. A great cross cultural, cross continental , multilingual farce. Well at least we have been thorough about the deception. Quiet a feet of incredible self hypnosis when you look at it. Impressive and ,in a weird twisted way, a testament to our true power. ...that we could have and continue to, delude ourselves so completely. Seems logical that the power that created the delusion can dispel said illusion. I'm excited for it all. What a long strange trip its been.!

[IndonesianLU]

Testing Quotes function:

..you in Indonesia..(I infer. from your handle)...and me in rural Maine in the US.

Yes, I am in Indonesia. I read a lot about Maine, in Stephen King’s Novels. Hahaha!

When I see more replies in my thread at first I thought that a guide had been replying my request for assistance.

Well, what do you know, the content of the thought is always not the truth and in this case is wrong, you are not a guide.

I’m sorry for my bad English, I’m not a native speaker, but I think this thought that I’m not good at English is also wrong it’s not true just like me as ‘I’ that only exist in the content of a thought.

The truth is, I’m looking for a guide and happy to have a new friend but maybe not here, you can contact me privately for friendship, in this forum I’m expecting to be guided. Thanks!

[Luchana]

Hi IndonesianLU,

(would you like me to call you like this or you prefer another name?)

I'm Luchana and will be glad to walk with you if you want? We can simply have a conversation and see where it takes you.

From your intro I see that you have commitment and honest desire for a truth, no matter what.
And that is great :-)
For the time of this investigation I would suggest that you leave aside all the information regarding this subject, also don't read other threads here in the forum. Rather focus on your own direct immediate experience.

Can we agree on that?

Liberation from the delusional self that makes the belief of a separate self that is in control.

What is the delusional self when you observe it here now?

How does it show up at experience?

Much love,
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hi Luchana,

You can call me: Rez

I'm Luchana and will be glad to walk with you if you want?

Yes, let this be happen..
Thank you so much for your kindness!

I will focus on my own direct immediate experience.

Can we agree on that?

YES

What is the delusional self when you observe it here now?

The delusional self is a content of a thought, it’s like an illusion, claiming the sensations and felt as a solid ‘me’ whereas in the observation it just some visualization, image and voices in inside some thoughts, the sound is not as real as the sound of a fan here in the bed room right now. Like a voiceover in the movie, nobody hear it. With eyes closed, the delusional self felt as sensations inside the body (the sense of enteroceptions plus the ‘I’ thought)

How does it show up at experience?

In the experiences: it felt as sensations happening in the chest and forehead, commenting and whispering, talking all day but cannot be heard with the ears as one of the ordinary five senses, just in the mind or thoughts’ contents (sorry for the English if not comprehensible)

Regards,
Reza

[Luchana]

Hi Rez,

The delusional self is a content of a thought, it’s like an illusion, claiming the sensations and felt as a solid ‘me’ whereas in the observation it just some visualization, image and voices in inside some thoughts, the sound is not as real as the sound of a fan here in the bed room right now. Like a voiceover in the movie, nobody hear it. With eyes closed, the delusional self felt as sensations inside the body (the sense of enteroceptions plus the ‘I’ thought)

All right. This is sort of intellectual conclusion, but what we are going to do now is to see if these thoughts are matching reality. We are going to investigate closely these sensations.

In the experiences: it felt as sensations happening in the chest and forehead, commenting and whispering, talking all day but cannot be heard with the ears as one of the ordinary five senses, just in the mind or thoughts’ contents.

Is it posible that the delusional self (a sence of me, Rez) is at these two places at the same time?
If you can bring it down either it is in the chest or in forehead. There cannot be an I in the forehead, and another I bringing it down to the chest.
Can you see this?

Now let's look closer.

How is it known that these sensations in the chest and forehead are the delusional self?

What it is exactly that brings this information?

Does the sensation says - "Hey, I'm the sensation "delusional self"?

Let's dig deeper. Focus on the sensation.

When you ignore ALL thoughts, labels and interpretations, what is it that you actually find there?

Do you really find an I there? Or you only find sensation?

Are these sensations Rez?

Or these are just a contracted sensation in the chest and forehead?

(sorry for the English if not comprehensible)

It's perfect :-) Here English is not native also. All is good.

Much love
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

OK, let's see in the direct experience in answering your questions:

Is it posible that the delusional self (a sence of me, Rez) is at these two places at the same time?

It's not possible, just felt two sensations in the chest and in forehead.

Maybe some muscles contractions or the skin in those areas tingling or some nerves.

Sensations happening in two places and in the same time a thought arising, claiming it's my self, the "I".

Can you see this?

I try to look closer, but every time I try to noticing where is my self, the sensations arising as subtle contractions felt in the back of the eyes, forehead, or chest area.

How is it known that these sensations in the chest and forehead are the delusional self?

I don't know the mechanism, I just felt the sensations everytime I look for the sense of my self.

Like when the thought of an "I" arising, the sensations also happening, so the mind or another thought coming concluding it.

What it is exactly that brings this information?

Just by thinking about it, What I mean is a thought and another thought bring this information, like when I'm looking for my self, then I'm thinking that's me is felt as the sensations in those places, and then I thought "oh, that's me!"

A conclusion in mind but really, it's just a story in another thought.

Does the sensation says - "Hey, I'm the sensation "delusional self"?

The sensations can't talk, it's all in my mind.

Like voices in my head or inside my heart, but it's only content of some thoughts, so subtle and only heard in my mind not by ears.

Let's dig deeper. Focus on the sensation.

OK, I'll spend some time to focus on the sensations based on five senses; seeing color and forms, hearing sounds, smelling aromas, tasting and touching, pressure, etc.

And also constant arising of thoughts keep come and go, so try to aware to be more open, widen or broadening the attention not focusing on thoughts; yet couldn't focus on sensations alone.

When you ignore ALL thoughts, labels and interpretations, what is it that you actually find there?

Honestly, it's hard.

Like describing the taste of a Durian fruit to people whom never tasted it.

It also means that sometimes I cannot differentiate clearly between the sensed and the labels.

Do you really find an I there? Or you only find sensation?

Sensations happening like simultaneously with the "I" thought and another thought with a story of claiming the sensations as an "I" therefore the time-gap to separate the sensations and the feeling of a separate self is so little if any.

The mind as labeling machines creating thoughts so fast out of nowhere everytime sensations felt in the five senses, like instant.

I will practice looking more often and more mindful, slowly, and spare some time in my day to be more in the now sensing sensations and ignoring thoughts.

Are these sensations Rez?

Do you mean to ask: Are these sensations is me; Rez?

Off course not, sensations is something perceived between objects and not the subject like a person, in this case, me: Rez.

Or these are just a contracted sensation in the chest and forehead?

Just sensations, even there are no chest or forehead felt with eyes closed.

The contractions and the tingling never gave informations like names, from what bodyparts, or forms, just like some feeling like somewhere in locations noticed when the attention arising.

I'm aware that the feeling of me is a combinations of sensations and thoughts with the contents as interpretations of me, my self, or an "I" and it's misleading.

Ignoring the thought, the interpretations, the labels, the idea of a self is just that, and idea is not materialized, it is not in reality.

In reality, they are physical sensations, felt somewhere and they are ordinary sensations like other four sensations (hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting) but the accompanying thoughts also heard and seen like real, because thoughts are arising as the same time as the sensations happen/noticed.

This sensations from what we called the skins, muscles, nerves, felt so much closer than other senses (like there are space or distance perceived when using visual sense) but when the sensations happened, like in an instant, thoughts popping, arising, so fast yet subtle, claiming that this is 'me' the "I" all a long.

I see this now. I hope my answers are not to draggy or repetitive.

Thank you so much Luchana,
Kind Regards, Reza.

[IndonesianLU]

I want to add something about what I said before that maybe didn't clearly seen in my looking for answer (I tried to explain or answered with a durian-analogy, another thought-based answer)

Previously you asked:

When you ignore ALL thoughts, labels and interpretations, what is it that you actually find there?
Honestly, it's hard.

Like describing the taste of a Durian fruit to people whom never tasted it

And here is my answer after spent hours of looking:

In order to ignore thoughts, there has to be someone outside of thoughts, who has volition and the ability to ignore them, right?

So ‘ignoring thoughts’ is like there is a separate self and a belief in an "I" or an agency of somebody with control or a free will.

In the here and now observation, they are only sensations happening plus the arising of thoughts, there is no a solid self sensed except only seen as the content of some thoughts.

Thoughts are not the reality, and they're veiling the seeing of how the real things actually are with names, labels, concepts, etc.

There are no one who can ignoring thoughts, but rather seeing thoughts for what they are and letting go happens on its own...

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

I really appreciate your willingness to inquire and look. Reading your last two messages something pop up.
I'm not going to comment all your replies, just will be focused on the most important. (for now:)
Hope that's ok with you.

A conclusion in mind but really, it's just a story in another thought.

It is so good that you can see that. Yes, it is just another thought, claiming so and so.

OK, I'll spend some time to focus on the sensations based on five senses; seeing color and forms, hearing sounds, smelling aromas, tasting and touching, pressure, etc.

All right. Direct experience means what can be experienced with 5 senses - correct + THOUGHT. But not what thought is about (ie. content of thought), Something like - In the thought about a red dress - there is no red dress in reality.. There is only a thought about a red dress.
Can you see this?

Like voices in my head or inside my heart, but it's only content of some thoughts, so subtle and only heard in my mind not by ears.

But how can exaclty mind hears?
Is there such thing as mind in reality at all?


Let's try to distinguish between what is real and what is pure fiction.

Here a very simple exercise which might help you see the difference between actual experience and imagined experience.
All you need to do is just to follow the steps. They are very simple. Don't approach the exercise intellectually.
Just look at it as a child. A child doesn't know anything. Examine with curiosity.

Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a spoon.
Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature.
Look and feel at ​the imaginary spoon for a while.
Its heaviness, with eyes closed touch the spoon, hold it between both hands.
Play with this imagiary spoon for a while.

Then open your eyes:

What happen to the spoon?
is there a spoon here, in real life?
How did you see that there is no spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?


Now go to the kitchen and get a REAL spoon, hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature.
Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.

Now open your eyes ...
is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?


Reply each question one by one.

Take your time.

Much love,
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

Hai Luchana,

Thank you for your replies, I'm OK with any method in guiding.
And I trust you as a guide who know more than me and only pointing to the most important: The Truth!

Can you see this?

Nobody can see, seeing happens but now I don't know for sure how or why the content of a thought could be seen or heard?

Something happens when reading these questions:

But how can exactly mind hears?

It's like a Zen Koan; "If a tree falls in the forest and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Or "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" Then the analytic and egoic mind froze!

And your next question is:

Is there such thing as mind in reality at all?

In reality there are sensations happening and thoughts arising,

Then some contents of thoughts are appearing as my egoic mind.

Now, "I" need time to do the exercise and reply to your questions one by one. Maybe about a day if that's OK with you...?

Regards,
Rez

[Luchana]

Hi Rez,

Now, "I" need time to do the exercise and reply to your questions one by one. Maybe about a day if that's OK with you...?

Sure, I was about to write you that there is no need to reply immediatly. Posting once per day help to keep focus. But of course if you want to share something more - please feel to do so.

In fact you have to look into the quesions not just ones or twice. Look many, many times during the day. And than reply.


Much love to you
Luchana

[IndonesianLU]

HI Luchana,

"I" tried the exercise many times today, and not just with spoon but sometimes with different objects available at the moment.

For the imaginary spoon:

What happen to the spoon?

Cannot be found as a thing. There is no spoon in any form.

Is there a spoon here, in real life?

Nothing in my hand now, spoon less in reality of my hand.

How did you see that there is no spoon?

Opening the eyes and seeing there is never a spoon in reality, only in thoughts as an imagination or a vague memory.

Did it disappear or did it never exist?

It never exist, the spoon is not real. I cannot see it in my hand.

Then after getting a REAL spoon, hold and sensed it:

Is there a spoon here, in real life?

Yes, I can see the color and form, touching the solidity of the spoon felt so strong beyond than the imaginative spoon.

Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?

The experience of the real spoon is recognized clearly with the shocking visual and kinetic/skin-felt senses, and not the same with the illusion of the imagined spoon, differs greatly.

How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

Imagining the spoon felt so vague, not real, only in thoughts and not as solid as bright as the real thing. Whereas experiencing the real spoon with seeing the color, feeling the weight and the solidity, the cold surface, the textured that never there in the imagination but in reality with a real spoon, there are some senses creating a rich experience, very surprising honestly.

These experiments are opening something in the paradigm.

The thought of an imagined spoon, if believed, like giving some energy to be more believable and attractive but never as perfect and as rich as the real spoon experienced.

Without any belief, just sensing the reality of here and now, the content of a thought (imagined spoon) is so blurry in the mind-screen (in the imagination or the content of a thought).

And the experience of the real spoon in my hand, is instantly recognized without any doubt like “I” always know that this is the real thing.

For feeling of a spoon, the sight, the weight, the solidity and temperature, they are so rich and bright with color and textured surface that missed in the imagination part previously.

And it gives a feeling of wonderful present moment in the experience; switching from imagining to sensing the reality.

The here and now, this moment in front of the eyes, under the nose, surrounding the ears, everywhere sensations comes are the real deal, not needing any belief, felt so rich and intimate.

Noticing happens more broad as a diffused-focus, like hearing so many sounds inside house and outside, seeing so many things and color also spaces are felt, touching textures and pressures, temperatures, tasting something, smelling too get noticed.

Being mindful with the present moment, when holding the real spoon, awareness opening so wide with many sensations comes and thoughts are still arising but somewhere and are not so attractive anymore.

Wanting to do the exercise with more comparing imagination and the real thing, more seeing again today. Attending to five senses while the thoughts are still existing and gone; repetition is key they said, to look for the “I” in the imagination the that is never experienced in reality. These exercises are so good!

Thank you for your kindness Luchana,
Reza

[Luchana]

Hi Reza,

"I" tried the exercise many times today, and not just with spoon but sometimes with different objects available at the moment.

That's wonderful! Yes, applying looking not only for the exercise, but whenever is possible during the day is great,

What happen to the spoon?

Cannot be found as a thing. There is no spoon in any form.

Is there a spoon here, in real life?

Nothing in my hand now, spoon less in reality of my hand.

How did you see that there is no spoon?

Opening the eyes and seeing there is never a spoon in reality, only in thoughts as an imagination or a vague memory.

Did it disappear or did it never exist?

It never exist, the spoon is not real. I cannot see it in my hand.

Is there a spoon here, in real life?

Yes, I can see the color and form, touching the solidity of the spoon felt so strong beyond than the imaginative spoon.

Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?

The experience of the real spoon is recognized clearly with the shocking visual and kinetic/skin-felt senses, and not the same with the illusion of the imagined spoon, differs greatly.

This is a very good looking!

How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

Imagining the spoon felt so vague, not real, only in thoughts and not as solid as bright as the real thing. Whereas experiencing the real spoon with seeing the color, feeling the weight and the solidity, the cold surface, the textured that never there in the imagination but in reality with a real spoon, there are some senses creating a rich experience, very surprising honestly.

Beautiful expression. Yes, the imagined experience is so limited, comparison to the actual experience.

Without any belief, just sensing the reality of here and now, the content of a thought (imagined spoon) is so blurry in the mind-screen (in the imagination or the content of a thought).

You can continue during the day (for some period let's say 3-5 min, but couple of times) to question every single thought, and always check if a thought is about direct experience (something real wchich is happening in the moment) or it is just more imagination (story)

And the experience of the real spoon in my hand, is instantly recognized without any doubt like “I” always know that this is the real thing.

Nice :-) As for quoting "I", you, me, we...don't worry. We can use these while speaking and writting, other way we couldn't communicate :-)

Noticing happens more broad as a diffused-focus, like hearing so many sounds inside house and outside, seeing so many things and color also spaces are felt, touching textures and pressures, temperatures, tasting something, smelling too get noticed.

And it gives a feeling of wonderful present moment in the experience; switching from imagining to sensing the reality.

Yes, when the energy that goes into the thoughts decreases - there is so much fun in reality :-)

Wanting to do the exercise with more comparing imagination and the real thing, more seeing again today. Attending to five senses while the thoughts are still existing and gone; repetition is key they said, to look for the “I” in the imagination the that is never experienced in reality. These exercises are so good!

When there is a honest intention to look - here you go :-)

Now let's look closely into a thought process and how it is happen at experience.

For the next exercise you will need a sheet of paper and a pen. Sit and write the first 10 thoughts in the exact order, in which they are coming. When you finish read them and reply:

When the first thought came, do you know what will be the last one?

Did you know the order when you start doing this?

Did you arrange the thoughts in that particular order exactly?

Do you know which thought will be next before it appears?

Can you follow a thought to its destination?

Can you trace a thought back from where it has come?

Take your time and try to completely ignore the content of the thoughts (what they are saying).
Just LOOK, curiously like a child.

Have fun :-)

Much love
Luchana